Best you will start with is a Range of 6 Meters with Distance Strike... How is that a comparison to what a Missile Master can accomplish? Distance Strike cost more than Missile Mastery and Power Throw as well... there are a LOT of variables with a Missile Master that A Distance Strike Specialist cannot even approach...

Not to knock a Distance Strike Specialist either though...I have one of those as well, and he is entertaining... but remember, it is not the powers that make the character... it is the Character of the character that makes or breaks the concept... powers are just the fluff to describe his style...

And since you can purchase things like Elemental Strike for both concepts, using that as a comparison doesn't really work, since it is not applicable to either Concepts main ability...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

I genuinely consider distance strike to be one of the least cost effective powers in the game since the range is so bad at chargen even when you keep your Essence untouched and your Magic high. With Missile Mastery and Power Throw you can at least match up well with pistols and a Magic Attribute of 2 or 3, which means you can actually make a pretty well-rounded character who just happens to be really good with thrown objects if you wanted to. Melee combatants, on the other hand, are real easy to turn into point sinks and one trick ponies even before you go so far as to add in Distance Strike.

Quoted For Truth...

While I like Distance Strike, it is horribly expensive... It can produce an interesting character, make no mistake, but that Power highly limits what other abilities you can add at character creation... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Keep the Faith

16? Well, let's see. Oni is an orc, +3 str, take exceptional str, max str is 10. is 1/2 of 10. a thrown knife is 6p, add missle masters, you get 8p. Add 3 levels of power throw, 14P for a throwing knife.

To get the damage higher, you need more str, either with cyber, bio or more magic.

Let's test your theory with more damage than an SMG. an SMG on full auto is 16P. Add better ammo, and you easily outpace that damage.

The gun has better range. Better rate of fire, and is why people with guns kill people with knives, even in real life.

The character is a good concept, just that at 0 karma, you are easily at your max. Your spell slinger is gonna out pace you, and magic is MUCH more easy to conceal and smuggle.

I guess if your opponent doesn't do a burst with his assault rifle, or other weapon, then you are correct. What about machine guns, grenade launchers and panther cannons? Can you out pace those?

Spell defenses as an adept? What spell defenses do adepts get that no one else does? Besides spell resist power, there are none.

A GM who only single shots with an AK 98, never uses an ares high volocity, machine gun, grenade launcher or anything else, then your knives will rock.

In my game, my NPC's are stupid. You throw a power throw knife, they won't just tickle you down one bullet a time, then will open up with a full auto burst. NPCs aren't there to inflate your ego, some are there to kill you.

P.S. missle parry will make a mockery of power throw. You can't missle parry an assault rifle.

Meanwhile, Power Throw 3, Improved Ability: Throwing 1, Missile Mastery and Quick Draw only costs 2.75 PP and will have a much longer range. Even if your normal STR is at a 1, you still would have an effective STR of 7, so literally anyone with that power set does at least light pistol damage with whatever is at hand. Throw in a strength of 3 and you're roughly on par with a heavy pistol. Maybe that's not terribly impressive for an all-in combat pro, but I have had a player at my table run take those powers in addition to Kinesics and Stealth/Social skills and come out with a pretty playable Face/Burglar even if it wasn't truly min-maxed to hell and back. The character didn't have a lick of 'ware but she could still do decent damage with a narcoject laced ceramic knife, and obviously she had no problems dealing with scanners. She also once killed a man by tossing an Edge powered cue ball at him, which I consider a plus.


Workover, your last post was REALLY hard to read, no offense. Anyway, I agree with the general point that pound for pound guns are the way to go for raw combat efficiency. But with that said, I think improvised throwing weapons can be a good addition to builds that favor infiltration and aren't necessarily intended to see super heavy combat. Throwing weapons are better used as a garnish than as a centerpiece, but they're by no means useless.

Why would you compare to an assault cannon, anyway? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's about tradeoffs, and having some fun. It's a different character for a different purpose. I for one am sick of every cookie-cutter 'ex-special-ops' soldier running the shadows as a killing machine. If the only point was to be the best, everyone would be a mage, or a Technomancer drone rigger, or whatever's the be-all of the week.

POwer Throw does not add Damage, it adds Strength... the Oni is playing at 16 Strength, and base damage is 9p with a Shuriken...



I Do not need more damage, so this is irrelevant, at least in my opinion... but if I did, then I can Augment my strength up to 12 for an additional +2 Damage... I do not really see the need however... I will tend to concentrate on other things to more round out my character...



14p Actually, IF you use a Narrow Burst... Remember, SMG's start at 5p, and a Full Auto Narrow Burst would add +9 to the Damage (Ammo choices could raise it up to another 2). However, that damage may not be Physical, as you compare Armor ratings against the damage before you add the burst fire damage boost, so if my armor is better than the damage output before Burst Fire Modifiers, well, it is Stun, not Physical... and you still need to hit to actually do any damage at all...



Not actually true... My Shurikens have a Better Short Range (10 smg vs 16 Shuriken), a roughly comparable Middle Range (40 smg vs. 32 Shuriken) and identical Long Range (80 smg vs 80 Shuriken) and you beat the Shurikens Extreme Range Catagory by only 38 Meters (150 smg vs 112 Shuriken)... so you really do not have a real advantage over my Shuriken with an SMG...

AS for Rate of fire... I could throw 2 Shuriken with no Dice penalties... or 4 with Split Pools... not so much different than your SMG wielding Gunbunny, and I do not have to worry about recoil penalties, while you do... and though you can easily get a SMG to compensate for a Short Burst (-2), or even a Long Burst (-5), getting it to counter a Full Auto Long Burst (-9) is a LOT harder... Not to mention the Burst Recoil Modifiers for a High Velocity weapon (-5 and -11 respectively)... Nor do I need such silly things as Smartlinks or Laser sights...

Lets not forget that in real life, there is no one who can employ any thing that he can pick up as a ballistic weapon with the damage potential of a Sniper Rifle or Panther Assault Canon... and with a range that far outstrips Pistols (of almost any caliber) as well as a vast number of SMG's...



But actually, I am NOT at my Max... I could increase my Strength by at least 3 more points, before anything like genetic Optimization or Exceptional Attribute (which could give me a Base 12 (Augmented 18) for Strength)... As well, I have 4 more levels of Skill I could add, before the Improved Skill Adept Power would even be a thought... so I am FAR from my potential maximum... So lets see, I could get an additional 8 Strength, and an additional 4 Skill, and +3 Improved Ability Dice. SO I AM really VERY far from my total potential indeed.

And why exactly will the Spell Slinger outpace me? And what magic, that is supposedly easier to conceal and smuggle, is going to make a difference? all of my powers are easy to Smuggle, and who in their right mind considers a pencil, pen, or a tube of chapstick as a true weapon... I mean really...



Again, Machine Guns, Grenades, Panther Cannons, or whatever STILL HAVE TO ACTUALLY HIT... so they are no more a threat to me than anyone else, nor are they less of a threat to a non-missile master... Not sure what your point is here...



But why would I need anything else? Again, what is your point here? I can have as many levels of Spell resistance as the character has Magic Rating... and again, this does not change anything, as a mundane Street Samurai has the same issues against Magic... I would go so far as to say that this particular blurb has little relevance...



Since this never happens at my table, I am at no further risk of being hurt than any other character out there who has a SMG or Assault Rifle... since my Thrown Weapons have the same damage capacity as a Sniper Rifle, your comparison here makes no real sense... While I may not have the penetrating power of a Sniper Rifle, I am going against Impact Armor, so it works out roughly the same...

Another interesting note is that when my GM has characters who are very very good at avoiding Automatic Weapons Fire (or any type of bullet thrower actually), then he tends to use Wide bursts to brutal effect, but here is the kicker... at taht point, the weapon is only doing its base damage, which my Shurikens tend to overshadow by 3 WHOLE BOXES (Base 6 vs. Base 9). As such, I do not see any significant drawbacks to teh weapons I have chosen...



You are assuming that the NPC's in our games are any different? They do use tactics, use wide and narrow bursts when necessary, suppressive fire to allow their comrades to obtain better positions, and whatnot... int eh tactical situations you are indicating, I am no worse thatn a Gunbunny, and am often better,as tehre may be instances where the Gunbunny is not allowed to have hsi toys with him... all I need is anything that I can palm in teh environment that I happen to find myself in, including such simple things as a pencil, a POaper Clip, a Playing Card, etc. I will effectively always have a weapon of some sort at hand, and that weapon is lethal enough to kill people... Lets see your Gunbunnies pull that one off when they are disarmed of their guns...



Actually it won't... Missile Parry is an opposed test against the attack itself... best man wins... as for parrying an Assault Rifle's round, so what... i would not try to parry such a thing... I would take cover, and then use whatever opportunity came about to retort in kind... Because if that gunner is not an Adept with Missile Parry, then he is just as susceptible to my thrown weapon (whatever it may be) as I am to his bullets...

So, All in all, I am not sure why you think that the Missile Master is a substandard Choice... He has pretty much all the capabilities of a Gunbunny, and possibly other things to boot...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

If you say so bud. In the end, a troll with power throw can put out real damage, facts are, even with troll, with max str, of 15, or redlining a cyber arm to get a str 20 for a single throw, plus max power throw is 26, for a 13p throw, add the +1 for missle mastery, +1 if it is a knife, for 15p. That's it. The point costs to obtain this for one action are astronimical on the build points, and then, it is a one trick pony.

BORING. An assault rifle can kick out 17p with a full auto burst per action. Get's higher than that, with better AP with better ammo.

The throwing adept sucks. It's boring, and new players will better off getting a feel of the world before they embark on this boring archetype.

BTW, if you use all the cyber required to max out the strength, you won't have magic points left to get spell resist, mystic armour or anything else but power throw and missle mastery.

This toon will suck hard unless he is in a game made to show off his throwing skillz. In my game, I will just blast his face off with any modern weapon, and if I miss, I will just lay it on thick.

My group read this thread and agreed this toon would make a great NPC with a single purpose, but as a damage dealing NPC, they wish I would add him, so they can get some free Karma.

It's a roleplaying game, not an MMO. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just built an Adept a few days ago and use it now in our new campaign. It's build using the Karma System (750 Karma). The Link ist a PDF of my character sheet... so there are NO Karma costs listed, but it's a starting character and it should be exactly 750 Karma.

Adept Character Concept: Neko


Cheers!

Agreed.

Good luck trying to take an assault rifle everywhere. If you really can, then well, I'm sorry, but your NPCs probably ARE stupid, or at least playing in a world where subtlety doesn't have any advantages. Plus, assault rifles cannot actually attain a base Damage Value of 17. They take their base damage, add bullet modifiers, add hits, and then the burst fire modes do not count for the purposes of determining damage type. That can be somewhat problematic when you consider that Spirits and drones come with hardened armor standard for all intents and purposes. Stick and shock helps, but it's far from a perfect solution, particularly for drones. While I would never recommend spending the majority of your build points on throwing weapons (frankly, if you're spending more than half your points on killing stuff, you're probably doing it wrong), high powered thrown weapons are actually pretty good at taking out targets that otherwise would require a monstrous number of net hits or specialty ammo and weapons to scratch. It'd still be more cost effective just to grab a Panther Cannon or use APDS, but again, you can't always count on having that kind of stuff available, whereas a missile master can be about as confident about being armed as you can get in this game. And for everyone else, standing pat at a DV of 7 or 8 really isn't that bad of a deal for a Face or Infiltrator, since it outperforms or matches up well with many of the weapons they would likely be using anyway and they can get their "guns" in anywhere.

I am curious, which part of my post said I had maxed out my damage potential, or used so many build points that my character was useless in other areas? I will give you a hint... I never said that... You are projecting your own predjudices onto the character build. And since when is 9p not real damage?

And honestly, if all you are caring about is damage potentail, that is truly BORING in my opinion... your entire set of posts have harped on this single point... But lets look at that again shall we... Your damage of 17p... Interesting... Okay, I get two throws to your one Full burst... I get 10p (Minimum) per hit... so 20p total to your 17p... looks like that Assault rifle is not looking so good any more... oh, and wait, you cannot just walk the street willy nilly, carrying thata Assault Rifle now can you... Hmmm, No problems for the character Build I am talking about... hell, he does not even HAVE to have a weapon on him... maybe a pocket protector with a few pens, and other "Geeky" things... I am sure that he will be stopped immediatly for carrying all those Lethal Bics... Ammunition is a factor for that AR... Not so with the Missile Master, ANYTHING is now a weapon for him... gee... looks more like the Missile Master is ahewad now in versatility than that Assault Rifle Carrying Criminal, don't you think? Got to have a License for the AR as well. Let me see, NOPE, not for those Bics in the Pocket Protector... I am sorry, I can not get on board with the statement that the AR carrying character is better in all regards, because that is just not true.

I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have never actually played such a character past the initial 1st Run... if that. Your statements seem to lead me to believe that at any rate. A well developed Missil mAster is just as deadly as your Gunbunny in comparable situations where they have access to their weapons, and the Missile Master is Infintely more versatile, as he can go ANYWHERE and still have an available weapon... Guess What, Your Gun Bunny Cannot do that...

Can you not imagine a character that does not Maximize his damage potential with a weapon? The character I was talking about used absoplutely no Cyber ware... and had only 2 pieces of bioware... He has a Magic of 4. I have a good selection of other abilities, since Power Throw and Missile mastery only account for 1.75 of the 4 power points available... And he has a great deal of growth potential, not only in his chosen combat styles, but in other areas as well... I can see this character being a joy to play for the next several years, and still not have everything that he may want to have...

And for your benefit; The character does not "Suck Hard" as you so eloquently put it, and the GM could care less about tailoring the game to my personal situation, there are seven players after all, and it would get very tedious trying to make sure that the World is sufficiently customized for each and every character that is being played (Maybe that is how you do it though). He writes the game, and I find ways to fit into the world, not the other way around. Or is this not how you do it? Does your GM (or Do you) tailor your world around the characters? Maybe that is why you are having so much of an issue with the character. As for just "Blasting the character's face off," well, that might be a tad tricky, as the character does not just sit out in the open waiting for a Street Samurai to come along so that they can duel it out at high noon...

I am sorry that all you can see is a one dimensional character, but honestly, that is more your problem than it is mine. I see a viable and extremely fun character, that adds a dimension to the game that is sometimes lacking in all of the "Blast 'em untill they are dead" characters that are so often seen.

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Apples and oranges versus walnuts and peanuts

If you like it play it. But understand that many people have tried the idea.

If you can only throw things then any group including NPC's that keep files on people will know his/her traits and skills. This will lead to the toon being frisked and left with nothing he/she could throw.

I like the idea as one of the body guards of a bad guy. I have even played this toon. The GM made the toons up and had the events set in place for it. It was ok. I ended up taking on more traits and role playing out of the box not designed for the toon as it was limited.

Good Luck

So what happens when I use my various abilities to run into you in an area you might not have your assault rifle with you and kill you with your own commlink?

Did you think about using skill groups?

Interesting Character 10Gauge... except for a simple error that I saw at least... Your Impreoved Reflexes (You have them costed as 5 PP) is only a cost of 4.5 PP (Costs were Reduced in SR4A Update), so you will have a .5 pp remaining for an additional power or two.

Other than that... I kind of like it... I Did not compare any other prices for character build, but it is pretty good... Like the picture too.

Keep the Faith

I really like the Character Concept...

And sure, you may develop a reputation, but that does take some time, especially if you are using something for ammunition that does not immediatly scream Missile Master... Like maybe cast Bullets... at that point, there is no real difference in the apparant damage than if you had actually used a real gun, and interestingly enough, you may start out with a higher damage potential as a Missile Master using a Light Pistol Slug than the actual Light Pistol could generate... so how do you determine that it was not a light pistol that fired it? Chances are very good that your opponents will not know the difference (how many of them actually run an autopsy to determine cause of death and ask for all the test that can be provided)... Gunshot victims are Gunshot victims...

It is funny... when I make a character, I do not usually tend to think of Skills In/Out of a Box... I come up with a concept... then I go after the abilities, stats, and skills that will fulfill the concept. As in most cases, I will not have enough points to completely flesh out a concept, so there will be things that are either ignored or are at a lower level than I might prefer (not everything needs a quality, Skill, or attribute to have relevance). But that works out pretty well for me, as the character will grow and develop as time goes on... sometimes that character grows in a direction not previously anticipated, which is okay. Charcters will generally grow organically... I have no problems when this happens, though I will still adhere to my CONCEPT of what I see the character as... And you know what helps me to truly flesh that concept out? The Questionnaire (The 20 Questions in the Book, and a 51 Question originating somewhere here on Dumpshock).

A character should grow and change... I never see it as growing "Out of the Box" as you said erarlier... But that is just me.

Anyways, I have rambled enough tonight... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/talker.gif)

Keep the Faith

The more I hear from him about it, the more it seems to me that his GM is giving him too much slack with walking around with guns. So much so, that it must not come up at all. I'm only two sessions in with my GM and we have already had a moment where I was effectively the only "armed" person in our group other than the mage.

But beyond that WorkOver, I don't care what amazing X amount of P you can get. Just because I'm a thrower doesn't mean I don't have a whole array of skills and maneuvers. I call it a good day when I don't even have to resort to throwing at all. And I think that is the whole point of the game. You can go guns blazing and enjoy your easily earned damage potential, I'll be over hear thinking of ways not to run into trouble. Maybe I just look for more options in the world that surrounds me than you do.

I'm the designated Spyball thrower of the group now. =/

This post has been edited by Railgun: Jun 1 2010, 03:56 AM

Well Said Railgun...

Keep the Faith

They have to strip me down then. I've already used a knotted piece of my own clothing to take out a camera. =P

Obviously I didn't leave it there. If your wondering.

The most interesting thing about the quote you used is this...

The Street Sam is Dangerous, so we will de-fang him by taking his guns, his knives, and his grenades away... BUT, for us to render the Missile Master somewhat (And I REALLY MEAN SOMEWHAT) less of a threat, we would have to completely strip him of his clothes and anything else that may be on his person, as well as keeping him immobilized so that he cannot just pick something up (possibly from the floor even) that may be used to kill us... Kind of reminds me of the Scene in Chronicles of Riddick where Riddick threatened to kill an inmate with just a Cup and a Paperclip...

Who is the real threat there? I am thinking that it is the Missile Master Myself...

Keep the Faith

I hope the situation never arises, but during my character's slave life, she had some terrible times in Tenochititlan. A little trick she learned in Sangre y Acero pitfighting was using her own tooth... So de-fanging is a funny term to use... ^^;

Poor Yuriko has a messed up life.

As other's have stated, one of the largest problems of OverWork's arguments, is that every one of them can be turned back on a gun bunny just as easily as the missile master.

Okay, so a group will open up with full auto on a person because they threw something at them? Well, I'd imagine that group would also open up on full auto against a guy that shoots at them with a gun. It isn't as if having a gun magically makes you invulnerable.

The Missile Master is going to be searched and relieved of his 'ammo'? (Don't think this was OverWork's, but still) Really? So, because there is a rumor that someone, somewhere is using Missile Mastery, the Missile Master is going to be searched and have all his pens, coins, datachips, buttons, etc (and would still have clothing if required) relieved of him. Well, wouldn't the same be true of the person using an AR? Why doesn't that person get searched? Or do they search him and go "Oh, an Assault Rifle? No problem, we're only looking for pens and coins really."

Also, OverWork's comment about damage it totally wrong as TJ pointed out, because you can throw multiple things (Two easily, and up to four actually if you duel wield I believe) a turn, which could mean a damage potential of 40+, compared to the Assault Rifle's 17 (with good ammo) and without suffering from recoil in the process.

So yeah, there really isn't any way that the gun bunny with an assault rifle outperforms even a mildly good Missile Master, except perhaps in the ability to provide cover fire (Based purely on choice of weaponry).

Don't forget, the street sam might have a concealed cybergun embedded in his arm and that gun might contain a clip of ex-ex ammo or... well, it is possible to have a clip of white phosphorus grenades in your cyber grenade launcher that shoots out of your palm... or wherever. Heck, those animated TV shows where the robot dog opens his mouth and a gun pops out? Totally plausible in Shadowrun.

The thing about Shadowrun is that it's basically impossible to completely and totally disarm everyone because someone somewhere has something that will get past. About the most you can hope for is to prevent most of the basic easy stuff and to have a MAD policy (mutually assured destruction).

Becouse you seem to be so fond of damage comparisons, lets do one with a real super thrower.
So we start with a Fomori and make him a ghoul.
Get Exceptional Attribute (Strength),Metegenetic Improvement (Strength) and Genetic Optimization (Strength)
then we raise his strenght to 14
make him an adept with 3 magic(missile mastery,power throw 3 and improved ability throwing 2)
so out of chargen throwing a tomahawk does a base 13P damage and thats very likely to be physical not stun like you burst and he can do that twice per IP.
Thats same base damage as GM Light Cannon.
Then after a couple of runs we raise his magic by 1 and get Muscle Augmentation 4 implanted
After a couple of more runs we raise his magic by 1 again and get Suprathyroid Gland
Now he has strenght 19(25 for throwing) and thrown tomahawk does 16P damage
Next after several more runs we raise his strenght by 2 raising the tomahawks basedamage to 17P, thats same as GM Heavy Cannon(The weapon of choice for main battle tanks) and unlike that he can do this twice per IP.
And then just for sh*t and gigles we pop a dose kamikaze befor combat raisng our basedamage to 18P and we also get a desand max range of 206m.

So are you seriously trying to say that my throwing adept who has higher base damag then a main battle tank sucks and can only shine if the GM takes a pity on me and tailors the game for me.
Only way for a shooter to get even close to this guys damage potential is if gets his hands on the thundertruck railgun.