While thumbing through the various abilities available to adepts, Missile Mastery and Power Throw in particular caught my eye. It sparked a desire to create a character themed after Mikoto Misaka from A Certain Scientific Railgun, using nuyen as ammo, among various other things lying about.

So, Restricted Gear to obtain Synaptic Booster (3). Along with that I picked up Synthacardium (3) and Muscle Augmentation (1) to bring me down to an even 4 Essence. I had to use all 50BP for starting nuyen and had to also pick up a few ranks of In Debt to cover the remainder. This left me with only 3,000¥ remaining to throw around on gear. Lined Coat with a Helmet sounded fine and Glasses with Vision Magnification and a low end Commlink along with a Fake SIN finished off my funds. That makes me a Squatter.

So, onto the Adept concept.

I picked up Missile Mastery which allows me to use anything lying around as a lethal weapon. Do all of these still incur improvised penalties?

In Throwing Weapon skill, can I specialize in improvised or do I have to pick a specific item, like specifically Nuyen?

I made her Ambidextrous as well, and have the Quick Draw adept ability, which brings up a whole other topic.

When I quick draw with the adept ability, I ready two throwing weapons as my Agility allows. The Quick Draw description says if the attack is a Simple Action, which Throw Weapon is, that I can attack twice. Does this mean I can Quick Draw my right hand, ready 2 coins into it and throw both? If I quick drawed both hands, could I throw four coins per Simple Action (2 from each hand), up to 8 coins per phase? This is the part that really confuses me.

EDIT: The part above I figured out. I misread it. I can only get up to 4 coins per Action Phase if I use both hands. But the rest I still need answers to.

If I'm missing any interesting things that could expand on my character or stuff that can simply do it better, let me know as well. I'm new at this.

Thank you ahead of time.

Fixed that one for you.

On a more serious note, dont forget that your essence presents your maximum magic (before initiating with karma) loosing essence also lowers your "current" magic, which means that even with 5.82 essence left, you would still have to buy your mana up from 0 (as opposed to 1)
Another issue you will face is that coins are no longer used. you could throw credsticks (small sticks which you can "put nuyen on") but that wouldnt really be the same would it?

I play an adept who is good at throwing myself, I havent used it much yet, but then, I don't have Power Throw yet. But its probably the next thing on my list (once the mage is done teaching me astral perception)

Good luck with your character. You being a new player, I would like to advertice the fact that only a very little part of shadowrunning is actual combat scenes, so don't forget various support skills (stealth, athletic skills, etc.), social skills, and contacts to name a few usefull things.

Just to warn you, many of my players have tried this concept, in the end, they all made new toons. This is a very very boring character type, that depends on a GM to make you a setting where it will be useful. With the level cap on power throw, your power will top out quick, and you can max out this character at character creation.

The other players will grow and get better, you will depend on what all you can throw, but will be the same boring character at 50 or 500 karma.


You will soon enough start throwing knives, and then that will top out, in the end, if you want to throw things as your main mode of attack, throw spells, or throw bullets.

Power throw is a great back up weapon concept, but in a world where NPCs will blast you with 10P mana bolts, and 7p assault rifles, on full auto, your measly power throw will get ya killed. That is, again, depending on if your GM has mercy and leaves out spell slingers and gun slingers.

Is there anywhere in the world that still produces material currency I could have my fixer get a hold of, or am I going to have to pay extra and grab some antique currency....? I don't really want to just be a general improvised thrower.

And yeah, that is what I've been hearing about Shadowrun, although my character isn't much of a people person, she is very good at getting around and doing it quietly. She has a solid assassin background, but her constant forced training didn't leave her much else to expand upon. I'm hoping to survive long enough in game to use karma to slowly broaden her abilities as she learns more about the outside world, having escaped from a slaved life.

Being an Ork with high STR to begin with and Power Throw 4, as high as I can go with my Chargen 4 Magic for now, I'm already sitting at 8P unless I've done something wrong. I honestly don't know how much karma the advancement requires yet, but I figure via initiation over time, raising my Magic with it and Power Throw, my damage will do nothing but go up.

I'm sure I'm making it harder on myself than it has to be, considering the magic and easy to use guns, but I'm not a front line fighter to begin with. I attack silently from a hundred meters away with a Called Shot. That won't be the situation all the time, I know, but I have teammates for a reason.

As WorkOver said, throwing stuff should never be your only way of dealing damage. I for one have a GM that doesnt look too kindly on munchkinning (well actually, we take turns GM'ing, and the policy is what we agreed on) which means that i get the opportunitu to be decend in more than one way, as opposed to having to specialize extremely just to keep up with a group of munchkins. Not that power-characters isnt fun, some of our fondest memories are from a short shadowrun game back when we where completely new to the settings and we all spent hours making power characters. It just doesnt stay fun for very long in my oppinion, and most people arent world elite with an assault rifle, so it makes more sense to spread your character a bit more (but as said, it requires the other players to do it somewhat aswell, or you will be left behind)

As a game, Shadowrun has its ups and downs like any other, the big ones for me is the believability (most rules are fairly realistic without being too complicated, so is the setting) and the powerfull character generation.
I don't know if the rest of your group is new to the game, but its a great idea to sit down with the whole group and talk a bit about the power level. Showing up with light guns is not much fun if the rest of the players and the NPC's are packing assault rifles.

I do not actually agree with this sentiment...

I am really enjoying my character a lot (an Oni Ninja) and I do not rely upon the GM to provide me with my opportunities... I am just as susceptible to the whims of the world as anyone else is, and I do not demand that the GM bend his world to my nature... I play the Sneaky bastard, who finds his own ways, and when I need to make an attack, it is dependant upon situation... If I am within melee range, I just draw my sword and fight it out in melee... if I am at Range, then I use the Shurikens (or whatever happens to be laying around, Yay Missile Mastery)...

Yes, you can max the concept for throwing at character creation (at least as far as your maximum levels in Power Throw are concerned, but there are so many things to spend karma on that the character can ONLY get better as the Karma Flows...

And you might want to look at Power Throw again... Measly is not the word... My Ninja has a 16 Strength for Thrown Weapons (that is Base 8p Damage) and with Missile Mastery that increases to 9p for the Shuriken... Much better than your average Assault Riflle, wouldn't you say, and My range increments (16/32/80/112) are better than a Heavy Pistol (By a Lot) and as good as a an SMG (and really, how often do you engage opponents outside of 100 Meters anyway)... so I am pretty confident that the Power Throwing character can hold his own agains the Gun Bunnies... and with the damage that I put out (vs. Impact armor no less) my damage output is just as good, if not often better... Since I am an Adept, I have fair defenses against magic as well, though not complete by any means... that will come with initiation (and Magic Attribute Increase) of course... And for reference, my Magic Attribute is a 4, and my Thrown Weapons Skill is a 2, with a Specialty in Shurikens: 12 Total Dice for attack.

And here is the Kicker... I can get into those places with a damage potential that far outstrips most Firearms/Military Weapons, while you are still trying to figure out a way to get your weapons in the door... There is something to be said about subtle...

Don't deride something that you may possibly not truly understand... a well done Missile Master can definitely hold his own against both Spell Slingers and Gun Bunnies, make no mistake...

Keep the Faith

Well, the only thing out of whack is that Power Throw can only have a Max of 3 levels... so you will get .25 Power Points back for that... (for clarification, you might want to look in the Street Magic Errata)...

Don't let anyone get you down, you have a great idea for a character, and it can only get better with time and Karma...

Keep the Faith

Ligth Pistols are so much easier to hide, and I actually prefer them to Assault Rifles in most circumstances...

Keep the Faith

I tend to link the throwing adept. Yes, the throwing is capped. But it is easy to have enough damage to compete with a SMG on short burst.
A few martial arts tricks (like having ready weapon as a free action) can help. You do give up any smartlink advantage for that aspect.
One of the interesting things is that you end up with range3s that are longer than pistols, although not up to Assault Rifles.

And yes, I would usually couple it with some sort of large, long range gun. (depending upon setting and the exact character, an LMG, a modified Sniper Rifle, or an Ares Alpha will do for those situations that require serious firepower.)

Part of it is that while this is a well known archetype, it is at least less common than the Orc Gunbunny (which I am running in my play-by-wave game.)

Yours,
Joel

I'd imagine currency is still in use in some places, and you might still be able to find nuyen floating around without it being antique, but it is going to be uncommon/rare, and it will be a huge calling card for your character, which can be both cool and potentially dangerous.

Another option is that you could use counterfeit nuyen. A Nanoforge (or microfab or whatever it is called) could make very convincing counterfeits (and might be part of the reason that physical currency has fallen out of use).

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I agree, I've seen the power throw build work exceedingly well. Sure, it maybe can't keep up with the damage of a mage (what can?) or a full auto burst from an assault rifle (About the only thing that can), but it is basically on par with the base weapon, without any sort of legality or concealability issues, and it doesn't have to be the only thing a character does any more than the ability to use an assault rifle is the only thing a street sam has going for them. They also can start out 'maxed out' just like virtually any other character in the game can. You can easily start with a 6 automatics, speced assault rifle, maxed agility with muscle toner 4 and the only assault rifle you'll ever want to use. Does that mean that such a character is pointless because they can no longer improve their ability to use an assault rifle?

You get no arguments from me on that point at all... even if you are the Best of the Best, tehre is always room for improvement... after all, you are only the Best of the Best in a single skill, assuming that you spec for that skill at character creation... there are a lot more things to do in the world than just killing your opponents...

Characters are more than the stats on the paper... I truly enjoy finding out just who my characters are, and where they are going... it is a lot of fun...

Keep the Faith

P.S.
I really like the idea of this character, and may have to make my own version. My only real question is should the character be male or female... can see male fitting the picture rather nicely, but I generally play females... *shrug*

They can both be really intriguing I would think...
They bring their own unique dynamic... I have tended to notice that Female Characters (whether played by Male or Female Gamers) tend to have a very different outlook than Male Characters do... which is oftentimes very interesting to me...

Keep the Faith

I tried making one of these characters before. I got caught up on the idea of throwing say impact detonating grenades.

That really is just adding Insult to Injury in my opinion... especially when the impact alone just might kill the target...

Keep the Faith

I understand the appeal of the concept, but it really is a weak concept. I would rather just take DISTANCE STRIKE and focus on being an unarmed dynamo. Now you cannot only do the same thing, namely going from unarmed to completely deadly, but you don't need any props to do so either. And youll be far more effective to boot especially if your GM lets you have fun with powers like ELEMENTAL STRIKE so you can shoot fireballs from your hands and whatnot. Yes I know those powers arent compatible but thats a silly rule and well worth asking your GM about. Even without it you have options like PENETRATRATING STRIKE and NERVE STRIKE to make your attacks more versatile and interesting.

MISSILE MASTER and POWER THROW are rather boring in comparison to those options.

Thought penetrating strike and nerve strike were also not compatible with distance strike. Also, you're limited to magic meters as distance if I'm remembering correctly, which means even an ultra kick ass super hyper adept will only have about a 10m range compared to the 100+ range of the person with missile mastery. And I hardly consider having an object as anything difficult to manage.

You're also leaving out the option of throwing more interesting things than random objects. As someone mentioned, grenades. Also poisoned darts. Just for fun, throw bullets to confuse the heck out of the forensic team. Honestly I don't see Missile Mastery and Power Throw as boring compared to penetrating strike and Nerve Strike. If anything it is the opposite, since a punch is a punch, but with missile mastery you can add a rather interesting twist based on what you commonly throw.

Fun concept. I'd consider going the manufactured coin route. Could even use a specific type of coin as a marker, though that could get you noticed.

It seems like this concept is more popular than I had thought!

I too am currently playing a variation on this concept, as a super focused Throwing Adept/Infiltrator... 20 dice for throwing anything that he can, well, pick up and 10 to 15 for his other skills. Is he a combat monster? Unequivocally; but I built him that way. Is he narrow? Not at all; I always find myself with something to do. Remember, there are no narrow characters, only players who lack initiative. If you find yourself bored every session, look at how you are playing your character before blaming the GM. And as for being weak, my character just tonight took two force 5 spirits down to 1 or 2 hit boxes, with one thermal smoke grenade to the face each (smacks them hard for damage, then blocks their meat and astral vision! ).

Looking at this build, the major changes I would make would involve getting more money; take synaptic booster down to 2 and you can get so many more bio (and even more cyber!) goodies.

In my group we don't apply the improvised weapon penalties, as we thought that would seem counter to the point of the missile mastery skill.

In regards to your specialization, my GM let me take a specialization in "Small Objects," which covers anything roughly two inches in diameter and roughly symmetrical; we figured that would be about as broad as most firearms specializations. Personally, I think an "improvised weapons" specialization is absolutely ridiculous. After all, how can you "specialize" in using whatever you can get your hands on?

Thanks for the advice and responses. They have been useful and informative. I do understand the idea of the concept drawing attention. I even went as far as grabbing the negative quality Distinct Style. A nanoforge might be a good idea, thank you for that suggestion.

Glad to hear other people having fun with this kind of character. Dropping Synaptic Boosters a rank could be a good idea, then I could even drop Restricted Gear for more BP. 4 IPs might really be overkill. With 3 I can get off max Take Aims and a Called Shot in one Combat Turn anyway for snipe shots. Suggestions for the freed up 0.5 Essence and 80,000¥?

The Power Throw limit kinda rains on the parade a little as far as offensive power is concerned, but frankly I'm not disappointed by that. It lets me focus more on broadening my character as I play rather than worry about dumping karma on a few more points of damage. Thanks for the info.

The same way you can specialize in everything that's a "small object."

Hell, I think "Improvised weapons" makes more sense than "small objects," to be brutally honest, especially if you don't come up with a somewhat arbitrary "2 inches and symmetrical" definition. A small object can be anything that's well, small, right up to some of the shuriken you normally have to get individual specs for. An improvised weapon, on the other hand, is anything that is not considered a traditional weapon. That at least rules a lot of things the more rules lawyer-ish characters are likely to start lugging around with them, and it's honestly not that hard to explain the spec as saying that the character has a knack for compensating for the lack of aerodynamic qualities in the stuff he decides to throw, but that it doesn't do him much good when he's trying to throw something that's already designed to hit the target with a nice tight spiral.

The specialization thing does have me wondering. I guess I really should just leave that up to the GM to decide exactly how diverse he wants it to go. The way I figure my adept powers interact with my improvised ammo is that I play with the kinetic energy and use it to increase the velocity drastically beyond just my throwing strength....kinda like a Railgun, hence the codename for my character.

So while, concept-wise, that'd fall under pretty much anything I can pick up, even I think game play wise, Improvised specialization might be pushing it. I'll just leave it blank and talk to my GM about it.

It shouldn't really be pushing it as long as he does go ahead and keep implementing the penalties for using an improvised weapon. Honestly, I'm not so sure why people are in such a rush to poo poo the idea of keeping the penalty even if the character has the improv specialization (because really, you're not the only one who has brought it up.) I just look at it this way: The +2 dice from specialization represents the limit of your ability to compensate for unwieldiness. If that swallows up the penalty and you end up with a small bonus compared to a guy using a "normal" weapon but without a specialization, then, well, to me that sounds like it's working as intended. Same deal if you're trying to use clubs to beat down a guy with a 2x4. The other guy could just as easily have had a sword and the sword spec and still beat you in dice, after all, and often times "real" weapons still have superior damage codes compared to their improvised brethren.

Really, the only area where I disagree with the penalty for being unwieldy is when you have the Exotic Weapon proficiency for something and yet you're still stuck with a -1 for being awkward, like with the monofilament chainsaw, for example. With Exotic Weapons, the entire point is being able to use that particular implement, after all. To me, that's a different situation than a Arnis fighter beating up a guy with an old damp length of wood.

Ok, the concept is thrown weapons. That's going to require a lot of strength. A troll can (without any special qualities) have 6 more strength than a human, for +3 DV. That's fairly significant. Now, I'm just seeing muscle augmentation, which only has 1-4 rating. So, you're going to have to get cyberarms to truly max out your Strength.
The problem is that you can't start with all the ways to raise strength at character creation -- it technically costs 40 BP and you can only spend 35 in positive qualities. So, we'll buy registered credsticks to hold our money and get uber cyberarms after character creation

Start with a troll (40 BP)
1 exceptional attribute (20 BP and must spend 10 more BP to raise the attribute -- p91 SR4A)
1 genetic optimization (10 BP, also costs 45k nuyen or 9 BP and must spend 10 more BP to raise the attribute -- p89, Au)

Now, all we want is to raise the max, we really don't care about spending more strength, as we're going to get cyberarms, so right now you've spent... 79 BP for a Strength of 5, but with a natural max of 12 and an augmented max of 17.

Now get the cyberarms.
Base cost 15k (obvious cyberarm -- also comes with 15 capacity)
10 increases to get to the natural max of 13 = 15k nuyen
5 increases to get to the augmented max of 17 = 1.25k nuyen
31,250 nuyen each = 62.5k nuyen total
But, the availability of each is high, so we need two RC qualities to let us buy something over availability 12 or 10 more BP.
So, the cost of these arms, added to the 9 BP we already spent on resources, total of 22 BP spent on resources, plus the 10 on qualities.

So, now your strength is 16 in each arm and you have 7 capacity left over in each arm. Not enough for a gyromount and a cyberslide, but you can still pack some good stuff in there. So, now go back in time and get the max of 3 levels of Missile Mastery for 3 points (5 BP)

Base DV of (strength/2+3) or base DV 11 for any thrown objects. That's a good deal better than light pistols and you have better range. And it only cost...
40 (race) + 20 (quality) + 10 (quality) + 31 (45k+62.5k) + 10 (availability qualities) = 111 BP for a base DV of 11 on thrown objects, although I forgot the BP cost of being an adept and buying Magic up -- see the end.

Now, how can we totally pimp this troll out? By making his cyberarms have awesome agility too. We can only take 5 more positive qualities, but a character could genetically optimize themselves (p89 Au) then surge for further optimization (p114 RC) after character creation, then get the cyberarms retrofitted for +2 more agility. I leave that as an exercise for the reader. We didn't surge for strength because damage is strength/2, so an odd number doesn't make a difference (and it didn't fit anyway).

So...
2 increases to get to the natural max of 5, then 2 more for the augmented max of 7 = 3k + 500 = 3.5k, just spend another BP.

Skill 6 + 2 (specialty in some type of throwing, probably overhand or baseball style, although I guess you could go underhand or softball style or coins or whatever)

.5 magic points spend on quick draw
1.5 magic points spent on improved ability (throwing weapons)

7+6+2+3 = 18 dice on thrown weapon tests, which will augment a base of DV 11, for a total of 112 BP. Adept is 5 BP, this requires at least Magic of 4.5 (or 5), so at least 50 BP on magic. 167 BP total spent so far. So, go spend 233 on skills or improving logic or willpower or body or another point of magic for some mystic armor or whatever.

Now, quick drawing with each hand makes you split your dice pool. I think the base DV is high enough that in most cases you should be ok. Quick draw with each hand, so...
In one IP, you do: 4 attacks, all with 9 dice on DV 11, or two attacks with 18 dice on DV 11.

This is really long and not all that well formatted, but it's late.

Edit: Wait, no, adding those two qualities gives a natural max of 12, so an augmented max of 18. Base DV is 12, not 11.
A human can only get 9 DV, instead of 12 DV. I don't think 4 DV is worth getting the extra 2 dice (or 4, if you pick up two qualities for agility and buy it up, but that's all really expensive and just not worth it).

Further edit: and 1 or 2 more BP for the resources to get strength up that high, I haven't done the math on how much was left over during the last resource expenditure.

Best you will start with is a Range of 6 Meters with Distance Strike... How is that a comparison to what a Missile Master can accomplish? Distance Strike cost more than Missile Mastery and Power Throw as well... there are a LOT of variables with a Missile Master that A Distance Strike Specialist cannot even approach...

Not to knock a Distance Strike Specialist either though...I have one of those as well, and he is entertaining... but remember, it is not the powers that make the character... it is the Character of the character that makes or breaks the concept... powers are just the fluff to describe his style...

And since you can purchase things like Elemental Strike for both concepts, using that as a comparison doesn't really work, since it is not applicable to either Concepts main ability...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

I genuinely consider distance strike to be one of the least cost effective powers in the game since the range is so bad at chargen even when you keep your Essence untouched and your Magic high. With Missile Mastery and Power Throw you can at least match up well with pistols and a Magic Attribute of 2 or 3, which means you can actually make a pretty well-rounded character who just happens to be really good with thrown objects if you wanted to. Melee combatants, on the other hand, are real easy to turn into point sinks and one trick ponies even before you go so far as to add in Distance Strike.

Quoted For Truth...

While I like Distance Strike, it is horribly expensive... It can produce an interesting character, make no mistake, but that Power highly limits what other abilities you can add at character creation...

Keep the Faith

16? Well, let's see. Oni is an orc, +3 str, take exceptional str, max str is 10. is 1/2 of 10. a thrown knife is 6p, add missle masters, you get 8p. Add 3 levels of power throw, 14P for a throwing knife.

To get the damage higher, you need more str, either with cyber, bio or more magic.

Let's test your theory with more damage than an SMG. an SMG on full auto is 16P. Add better ammo, and you easily outpace that damage.

The gun has better range. Better rate of fire, and is why people with guns kill people with knives, even in real life.

The character is a good concept, just that at 0 karma, you are easily at your max. Your spell slinger is gonna out pace you, and magic is MUCH more easy to conceal and smuggle.

I guess if your opponent doesn't do a burst with his assault rifle, or other weapon, then you are correct. What about machine guns, grenade launchers and panther cannons? Can you out pace those?

Spell defenses as an adept? What spell defenses do adepts get that no one else does? Besides spell resist power, there are none.

A GM who only single shots with an AK 98, never uses an ares high volocity, machine gun, grenade launcher or anything else, then your knives will rock.

In my game, my NPC's are stupid. You throw a power throw knife, they won't just tickle you down one bullet a time, then will open up with a full auto burst. NPCs aren't there to inflate your ego, some are there to kill you.

P.S. missle parry will make a mockery of power throw. You can't missle parry an assault rifle.

Meanwhile, Power Throw 3, Improved Ability: Throwing 1, Missile Mastery and Quick Draw only costs 2.75 PP and will have a much longer range. Even if your normal STR is at a 1, you still would have an effective STR of 7, so literally anyone with that power set does at least light pistol damage with whatever is at hand. Throw in a strength of 3 and you're roughly on par with a heavy pistol. Maybe that's not terribly impressive for an all-in combat pro, but I have had a player at my table run take those powers in addition to Kinesics and Stealth/Social skills and come out with a pretty playable Face/Burglar even if it wasn't truly min-maxed to hell and back. The character didn't have a lick of 'ware but she could still do decent damage with a narcoject laced ceramic knife, and obviously she had no problems dealing with scanners. She also once killed a man by tossing an Edge powered cue ball at him, which I consider a plus.


Workover, your last post was REALLY hard to read, no offense. Anyway, I agree with the general point that pound for pound guns are the way to go for raw combat efficiency. But with that said, I think improvised throwing weapons can be a good addition to builds that favor infiltration and aren't necessarily intended to see super heavy combat. Throwing weapons are better used as a garnish than as a centerpiece, but they're by no means useless.

Why would you compare to an assault cannon, anyway?

It's about tradeoffs, and having some fun. It's a different character for a different purpose. I for one am sick of every cookie-cutter 'ex-special-ops' soldier running the shadows as a killing machine. If the only point was to be the best, everyone would be a mage, or a Technomancer drone rigger, or whatever's the be-all of the week.

POwer Throw does not add Damage, it adds Strength... the Oni is playing at 16 Strength, and base damage is 9p with a Shuriken...



I Do not need more damage, so this is irrelevant, at least in my opinion... but if I did, then I can Augment my strength up to 12 for an additional +2 Damage... I do not really see the need however... I will tend to concentrate on other things to more round out my character...



14p Actually, IF you use a Narrow Burst... Remember, SMG's start at 5p, and a Full Auto Narrow Burst would add +9 to the Damage (Ammo choices could raise it up to another 2). However, that damage may not be Physical, as you compare Armor ratings against the damage before you add the burst fire damage boost, so if my armor is better than the damage output before Burst Fire Modifiers, well, it is Stun, not Physical... and you still need to hit to actually do any damage at all...



Not actually true... My Shurikens have a Better Short Range (10 smg vs 16 Shuriken), a roughly comparable Middle Range (40 smg vs. 32 Shuriken) and identical Long Range (80 smg vs 80 Shuriken) and you beat the Shurikens Extreme Range Catagory by only 38 Meters (150 smg vs 112 Shuriken)... so you really do not have a real advantage over my Shuriken with an SMG...

AS for Rate of fire... I could throw 2 Shuriken with no Dice penalties... or 4 with Split Pools... not so much different than your SMG wielding Gunbunny, and I do not have to worry about recoil penalties, while you do... and though you can easily get a SMG to compensate for a Short Burst (-2), or even a Long Burst (-5), getting it to counter a Full Auto Long Burst (-9) is a LOT harder... Not to mention the Burst Recoil Modifiers for a High Velocity weapon (-5 and -11 respectively)... Nor do I need such silly things as Smartlinks or Laser sights...

Lets not forget that in real life, there is no one who can employ any thing that he can pick up as a ballistic weapon with the damage potential of a Sniper Rifle or Panther Assault Canon... and with a range that far outstrips Pistols (of almost any caliber) as well as a vast number of SMG's...



But actually, I am NOT at my Max... I could increase my Strength by at least 3 more points, before anything like genetic Optimization or Exceptional Attribute (which could give me a Base 12 (Augmented 18) for Strength)... As well, I have 4 more levels of Skill I could add, before the Improved Skill Adept Power would even be a thought... so I am FAR from my potential maximum... So lets see, I could get an additional 8 Strength, and an additional 4 Skill, and +3 Improved Ability Dice. SO I AM really VERY far from my total potential indeed.

And why exactly will the Spell Slinger outpace me? And what magic, that is supposedly easier to conceal and smuggle, is going to make a difference? all of my powers are easy to Smuggle, and who in their right mind considers a pencil, pen, or a tube of chapstick as a true weapon... I mean really...



Again, Machine Guns, Grenades, Panther Cannons, or whatever STILL HAVE TO ACTUALLY HIT... so they are no more a threat to me than anyone else, nor are they less of a threat to a non-missile master... Not sure what your point is here...



But why would I need anything else? Again, what is your point here? I can have as many levels of Spell resistance as the character has Magic Rating... and again, this does not change anything, as a mundane Street Samurai has the same issues against Magic... I would go so far as to say that this particular blurb has little relevance...



Since this never happens at my table, I am at no further risk of being hurt than any other character out there who has a SMG or Assault Rifle... since my Thrown Weapons have the same damage capacity as a Sniper Rifle, your comparison here makes no real sense... While I may not have the penetrating power of a Sniper Rifle, I am going against Impact Armor, so it works out roughly the same...

Another interesting note is that when my GM has characters who are very very good at avoiding Automatic Weapons Fire (or any type of bullet thrower actually), then he tends to use Wide bursts to brutal effect, but here is the kicker... at taht point, the weapon is only doing its base damage, which my Shurikens tend to overshadow by 3 WHOLE BOXES (Base 6 vs. Base 9). As such, I do not see any significant drawbacks to teh weapons I have chosen...



You are assuming that the NPC's in our games are any different? They do use tactics, use wide and narrow bursts when necessary, suppressive fire to allow their comrades to obtain better positions, and whatnot... int eh tactical situations you are indicating, I am no worse thatn a Gunbunny, and am often better,as tehre may be instances where the Gunbunny is not allowed to have hsi toys with him... all I need is anything that I can palm in teh environment that I happen to find myself in, including such simple things as a pencil, a POaper Clip, a Playing Card, etc. I will effectively always have a weapon of some sort at hand, and that weapon is lethal enough to kill people... Lets see your Gunbunnies pull that one off when they are disarmed of their guns...



Actually it won't... Missile Parry is an opposed test against the attack itself... best man wins... as for parrying an Assault Rifle's round, so what... i would not try to parry such a thing... I would take cover, and then use whatever opportunity came about to retort in kind... Because if that gunner is not an Adept with Missile Parry, then he is just as susceptible to my thrown weapon (whatever it may be) as I am to his bullets...

So, All in all, I am not sure why you think that the Missile Master is a substandard Choice... He has pretty much all the capabilities of a Gunbunny, and possibly other things to boot...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

If you say so bud. In the end, a troll with power throw can put out real damage, facts are, even with troll, with max str, of 15, or redlining a cyber arm to get a str 20 for a single throw, plus max power throw is 26, for a 13p throw, add the +1 for missle mastery, +1 if it is a knife, for 15p. That's it. The point costs to obtain this for one action are astronimical on the build points, and then, it is a one trick pony.

BORING. An assault rifle can kick out 17p with a full auto burst per action. Get's higher than that, with better AP with better ammo.

The throwing adept sucks. It's boring, and new players will better off getting a feel of the world before they embark on this boring archetype.

BTW, if you use all the cyber required to max out the strength, you won't have magic points left to get spell resist, mystic armour or anything else but power throw and missle mastery.

This toon will suck hard unless he is in a game made to show off his throwing skillz. In my game, I will just blast his face off with any modern weapon, and if I miss, I will just lay it on thick.

My group read this thread and agreed this toon would make a great NPC with a single purpose, but as a damage dealing NPC, they wish I would add him, so they can get some free Karma.

It's a roleplaying game, not an MMO.

Just built an Adept a few days ago and use it now in our new campaign. It's build using the Karma System (750 Karma). The Link ist a PDF of my character sheet... so there are NO Karma costs listed, but it's a starting character and it should be exactly 750 Karma.

Adept Character Concept: Neko


Cheers!

Agreed.

Good luck trying to take an assault rifle everywhere. If you really can, then well, I'm sorry, but your NPCs probably ARE stupid, or at least playing in a world where subtlety doesn't have any advantages. Plus, assault rifles cannot actually attain a base Damage Value of 17. They take their base damage, add bullet modifiers, add hits, and then the burst fire modes do not count for the purposes of determining damage type. That can be somewhat problematic when you consider that Spirits and drones come with hardened armor standard for all intents and purposes. Stick and shock helps, but it's far from a perfect solution, particularly for drones. While I would never recommend spending the majority of your build points on throwing weapons (frankly, if you're spending more than half your points on killing stuff, you're probably doing it wrong), high powered thrown weapons are actually pretty good at taking out targets that otherwise would require a monstrous number of net hits or specialty ammo and weapons to scratch. It'd still be more cost effective just to grab a Panther Cannon or use APDS, but again, you can't always count on having that kind of stuff available, whereas a missile master can be about as confident about being armed as you can get in this game. And for everyone else, standing pat at a DV of 7 or 8 really isn't that bad of a deal for a Face or Infiltrator, since it outperforms or matches up well with many of the weapons they would likely be using anyway and they can get their "guns" in anywhere.

I am curious, which part of my post said I had maxed out my damage potential, or used so many build points that my character was useless in other areas? I will give you a hint... I never said that... You are projecting your own predjudices onto the character build. And since when is 9p not real damage?

And honestly, if all you are caring about is damage potentail, that is truly BORING in my opinion... your entire set of posts have harped on this single point... But lets look at that again shall we... Your damage of 17p... Interesting... Okay, I get two throws to your one Full burst... I get 10p (Minimum) per hit... so 20p total to your 17p... looks like that Assault rifle is not looking so good any more... oh, and wait, you cannot just walk the street willy nilly, carrying thata Assault Rifle now can you... Hmmm, No problems for the character Build I am talking about... hell, he does not even HAVE to have a weapon on him... maybe a pocket protector with a few pens, and other "Geeky" things... I am sure that he will be stopped immediatly for carrying all those Lethal Bics... Ammunition is a factor for that AR... Not so with the Missile Master, ANYTHING is now a weapon for him... gee... looks more like the Missile Master is ahewad now in versatility than that Assault Rifle Carrying Criminal, don't you think? Got to have a License for the AR as well. Let me see, NOPE, not for those Bics in the Pocket Protector... I am sorry, I can not get on board with the statement that the AR carrying character is better in all regards, because that is just not true.

I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have never actually played such a character past the initial 1st Run... if that. Your statements seem to lead me to believe that at any rate. A well developed Missil mAster is just as deadly as your Gunbunny in comparable situations where they have access to their weapons, and the Missile Master is Infintely more versatile, as he can go ANYWHERE and still have an available weapon... Guess What, Your Gun Bunny Cannot do that...

Can you not imagine a character that does not Maximize his damage potential with a weapon? The character I was talking about used absoplutely no Cyber ware... and had only 2 pieces of bioware... He has a Magic of 4. I have a good selection of other abilities, since Power Throw and Missile mastery only account for 1.75 of the 4 power points available... And he has a great deal of growth potential, not only in his chosen combat styles, but in other areas as well... I can see this character being a joy to play for the next several years, and still not have everything that he may want to have...

And for your benefit; The character does not "Suck Hard" as you so eloquently put it, and the GM could care less about tailoring the game to my personal situation, there are seven players after all, and it would get very tedious trying to make sure that the World is sufficiently customized for each and every character that is being played (Maybe that is how you do it though). He writes the game, and I find ways to fit into the world, not the other way around. Or is this not how you do it? Does your GM (or Do you) tailor your world around the characters? Maybe that is why you are having so much of an issue with the character. As for just "Blasting the character's face off," well, that might be a tad tricky, as the character does not just sit out in the open waiting for a Street Samurai to come along so that they can duel it out at high noon...

I am sorry that all you can see is a one dimensional character, but honestly, that is more your problem than it is mine. I see a viable and extremely fun character, that adds a dimension to the game that is sometimes lacking in all of the "Blast 'em untill they are dead" characters that are so often seen.

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Apples and oranges versus walnuts and peanuts

If you like it play it. But understand that many people have tried the idea.

If you can only throw things then any group including NPC's that keep files on people will know his/her traits and skills. This will lead to the toon being frisked and left with nothing he/she could throw.

I like the idea as one of the body guards of a bad guy. I have even played this toon. The GM made the toons up and had the events set in place for it. It was ok. I ended up taking on more traits and role playing out of the box not designed for the toon as it was limited.

Good Luck

So what happens when I use my various abilities to run into you in an area you might not have your assault rifle with you and kill you with your own commlink?

Did you think about using skill groups?

Interesting Character 10Gauge... except for a simple error that I saw at least... Your Impreoved Reflexes (You have them costed as 5 PP) is only a cost of 4.5 PP (Costs were Reduced in SR4A Update), so you will have a .5 pp remaining for an additional power or two.

Other than that... I kind of like it... I Did not compare any other prices for character build, but it is pretty good... Like the picture too.

Keep the Faith

I really like the Character Concept...

And sure, you may develop a reputation, but that does take some time, especially if you are using something for ammunition that does not immediatly scream Missile Master... Like maybe cast Bullets... at that point, there is no real difference in the apparant damage than if you had actually used a real gun, and interestingly enough, you may start out with a higher damage potential as a Missile Master using a Light Pistol Slug than the actual Light Pistol could generate... so how do you determine that it was not a light pistol that fired it? Chances are very good that your opponents will not know the difference (how many of them actually run an autopsy to determine cause of death and ask for all the test that can be provided)... Gunshot victims are Gunshot victims...

It is funny... when I make a character, I do not usually tend to think of Skills In/Out of a Box... I come up with a concept... then I go after the abilities, stats, and skills that will fulfill the concept. As in most cases, I will not have enough points to completely flesh out a concept, so there will be things that are either ignored or are at a lower level than I might prefer (not everything needs a quality, Skill, or attribute to have relevance). But that works out pretty well for me, as the character will grow and develop as time goes on... sometimes that character grows in a direction not previously anticipated, which is okay. Charcters will generally grow organically... I have no problems when this happens, though I will still adhere to my CONCEPT of what I see the character as... And you know what helps me to truly flesh that concept out? The Questionnaire (The 20 Questions in the Book, and a 51 Question originating somewhere here on Dumpshock).

A character should grow and change... I never see it as growing "Out of the Box" as you said erarlier... But that is just me.

Anyways, I have rambled enough tonight...

Keep the Faith

The more I hear from him about it, the more it seems to me that his GM is giving him too much slack with walking around with guns. So much so, that it must not come up at all. I'm only two sessions in with my GM and we have already had a moment where I was effectively the only "armed" person in our group other than the mage.

But beyond that WorkOver, I don't care what amazing X amount of P you can get. Just because I'm a thrower doesn't mean I don't have a whole array of skills and maneuvers. I call it a good day when I don't even have to resort to throwing at all. And I think that is the whole point of the game. You can go guns blazing and enjoy your easily earned damage potential, I'll be over hear thinking of ways not to run into trouble. Maybe I just look for more options in the world that surrounds me than you do.

I'm the designated Spyball thrower of the group now. =/

Well Said Railgun...

Keep the Faith

They have to strip me down then. I've already used a knotted piece of my own clothing to take out a camera. =P

Obviously I didn't leave it there. If your wondering.

The most interesting thing about the quote you used is this...

The Street Sam is Dangerous, so we will de-fang him by taking his guns, his knives, and his grenades away... BUT, for us to render the Missile Master somewhat (And I REALLY MEAN SOMEWHAT) less of a threat, we would have to completely strip him of his clothes and anything else that may be on his person, as well as keeping him immobilized so that he cannot just pick something up (possibly from the floor even) that may be used to kill us... Kind of reminds me of the Scene in Chronicles of Riddick where Riddick threatened to kill an inmate with just a Cup and a Paperclip...

Who is the real threat there? I am thinking that it is the Missile Master Myself...

Keep the Faith

I hope the situation never arises, but during my character's slave life, she had some terrible times in Tenochititlan. A little trick she learned in Sangre y Acero pitfighting was using her own tooth... So de-fanging is a funny term to use... ^^;

Poor Yuriko has a messed up life.

As other's have stated, one of the largest problems of OverWork's arguments, is that every one of them can be turned back on a gun bunny just as easily as the missile master.

Okay, so a group will open up with full auto on a person because they threw something at them? Well, I'd imagine that group would also open up on full auto against a guy that shoots at them with a gun. It isn't as if having a gun magically makes you invulnerable.

The Missile Master is going to be searched and relieved of his 'ammo'? (Don't think this was OverWork's, but still) Really? So, because there is a rumor that someone, somewhere is using Missile Mastery, the Missile Master is going to be searched and have all his pens, coins, datachips, buttons, etc (and would still have clothing if required) relieved of him. Well, wouldn't the same be true of the person using an AR? Why doesn't that person get searched? Or do they search him and go "Oh, an Assault Rifle? No problem, we're only looking for pens and coins really."

Also, OverWork's comment about damage it totally wrong as TJ pointed out, because you can throw multiple things (Two easily, and up to four actually if you duel wield I believe) a turn, which could mean a damage potential of 40+, compared to the Assault Rifle's 17 (with good ammo) and without suffering from recoil in the process.

So yeah, there really isn't any way that the gun bunny with an assault rifle outperforms even a mildly good Missile Master, except perhaps in the ability to provide cover fire (Based purely on choice of weaponry).

Don't forget, the street sam might have a concealed cybergun embedded in his arm and that gun might contain a clip of ex-ex ammo or... well, it is possible to have a clip of white phosphorus grenades in your cyber grenade launcher that shoots out of your palm... or wherever. Heck, those animated TV shows where the robot dog opens his mouth and a gun pops out? Totally plausible in Shadowrun.

The thing about Shadowrun is that it's basically impossible to completely and totally disarm everyone because someone somewhere has something that will get past. About the most you can hope for is to prevent most of the basic easy stuff and to have a MAD policy (mutually assured destruction).

Becouse you seem to be so fond of damage comparisons, lets do one with a real super thrower.
So we start with a Fomori and make him a ghoul.
Get Exceptional Attribute (Strength),Metegenetic Improvement (Strength) and Genetic Optimization (Strength)
then we raise his strenght to 14
make him an adept with 3 magic(missile mastery,power throw 3 and improved ability throwing 2)
so out of chargen throwing a tomahawk does a base 13P damage and thats very likely to be physical not stun like you burst and he can do that twice per IP.
Thats same base damage as GM Light Cannon.
Then after a couple of runs we raise his magic by 1 and get Muscle Augmentation 4 implanted
After a couple of more runs we raise his magic by 1 again and get Suprathyroid Gland
Now he has strenght 19(25 for throwing) and thrown tomahawk does 16P damage
Next after several more runs we raise his strenght by 2 raising the tomahawks basedamage to 17P, thats same as GM Heavy Cannon(The weapon of choice for main battle tanks) and unlike that he can do this twice per IP.
And then just for sh*t and gigles we pop a dose kamikaze befor combat raisng our basedamage to 18P and we also get a desand max range of 206m.

So are you seriously trying to say that my throwing adept who has higher base damag then a main battle tank sucks and can only shine if the GM takes a pity on me and tailors the game for me.
Only way for a shooter to get even close to this guys damage potential is if gets his hands on the thundertruck railgun.