New Player (Throwing Adept Concept), I could use some advise and instructions. Options

[Railgun]

While thumbing through the various abilities available to adepts, Missile Mastery and Power Throw in particular caught my eye. It sparked a desire to create a character themed after Mikoto Misaka from A Certain Scientific Railgun, using nuyen as ammo, among various other things lying about.

So, Restricted Gear to obtain Synaptic Booster (3). Along with that I picked up Synthacardium (3) and Muscle Augmentation (1) to bring me down to an even 4 Essence. I had to use all 50BP for starting nuyen and had to also pick up a few ranks of In Debt to cover the remainder. This left me with only 3,000¥ remaining to throw around on gear. Lined Coat with a Helmet sounded fine and Glasses with Vision Magnification and a low end Commlink along with a Fake SIN finished off my funds. That makes me a Squatter.

So, onto the Adept concept.

I picked up Missile Mastery which allows me to use anything lying around as a lethal weapon. Do all of these still incur improvised penalties?

In Throwing Weapon skill, can I specialize in improvised or do I have to pick a specific item, like specifically Nuyen?

I made her Ambidextrous as well, and have the Quick Draw adept ability, which brings up a whole other topic.

When I quick draw with the adept ability, I ready two throwing weapons as my Agility allows. The Quick Draw description says if the attack is a Simple Action, which Throw Weapon is, that I can attack twice. Does this mean I can Quick Draw my right hand, ready 2 coins into it and throw both? If I quick drawed both hands, could I throw four coins per Simple Action (2 from each hand), up to 8 coins per phase? This is the part that really confuses me.

EDIT: The part above I figured out. I misread it. I can only get up to 4 coins per Action Phase if I use both hands. But the rest I still need answers to.

If I'm missing any interesting things that could expand on my character or stuff that can simply do it better, let me know as well. I'm new at this.

Thank you ahead of time.

This post has been edited by Railgun: May 29 2010, 11:15 PM

[koogco]

This left me with only 3,000¥ remaining to throw around as ammo.

Fixed that one for you.

On a more serious note, dont forget that your essence presents your maximum magic (before initiating with karma) loosing essence also lowers your "current" magic, which means that even with 5.82 essence left, you would still have to buy your mana up from 0 (as opposed to 1)
Another issue you will face is that coins are no longer used. you could throw credsticks (small sticks which you can "put nuyen on") but that wouldnt really be the same would it?

I play an adept who is good at throwing myself, I havent used it much yet, but then, I don't have Power Throw yet. But its probably the next thing on my list (once the mage is done teaching me astral perception)

Good luck with your character. You being a new player, I would like to advertice the fact that only a very little part of shadowrunning is actual combat scenes, so don't forget various support skills (stealth, athletic skills, etc.), social skills, and contacts to name a few usefull things.

[WorkOver]

Just to warn you, many of my players have tried this concept, in the end, they all made new toons. This is a very very boring character type, that depends on a GM to make you a setting where it will be useful. With the level cap on power throw, your power will top out quick, and you can max out this character at character creation.

The other players will grow and get better, you will depend on what all you can throw, but will be the same boring character at 50 or 500 karma.


You will soon enough start throwing knives, and then that will top out, in the end, if you want to throw things as your main mode of attack, throw spells, or throw bullets.

Power throw is a great back up weapon concept, but in a world where NPCs will blast you with 10P mana bolts, and 7p assault rifles, on full auto, your measly power throw will get ya killed. That is, again, depending on if your GM has mercy and leaves out spell slingers and gun slingers.

[Railgun]

Another issue you will face is that coins are no longer used. you could throw credsticks (small sticks which you can "put nuyen on") but that wouldnt really be the same would it?

Good luck with your character. You being a new player, I would like to advertice the fact that only a very little part of shadowrunning is actual combat scenes, so don't forget various support skills (stealth, athletic skills, etc.), social skills, and contacts to name a few usefull things.

Is there anywhere in the world that still produces material currency I could have my fixer get a hold of, or am I going to have to pay extra and grab some antique currency....? I don't really want to just be a general improvised thrower.

And yeah, that is what I've been hearing about Shadowrun, although my character isn't much of a people person, she is very good at getting around and doing it quietly. She has a solid assassin background, but her constant forced training didn't leave her much else to expand upon. I'm hoping to survive long enough in game to use karma to slowly broaden her abilities as she learns more about the outside world, having escaped from a slaved life.

[Railgun]

Just to warn you, many of my players have tried this concept, in the end, they all made new toons. This is a very very boring character type, that depends on a GM to make you a setting where it will be useful. With the level cap on power throw, your power will top out quick, and you can max out this character at character creation.

Power throw is a great back up weapon concept, but in a world where NPCs will blast you with 10P mana bolts, and 7p assault rifles, on full auto, your measly power throw will get ya killed. That is, again, depending on if your GM has mercy and leaves out spell slingers and gun slingers.

Being an Ork with high STR to begin with and Power Throw 4, as high as I can go with my Chargen 4 Magic for now, I'm already sitting at 8P unless I've done something wrong. I honestly don't know how much karma the advancement requires yet, but I figure via initiation over time, raising my Magic with it and Power Throw, my damage will do nothing but go up.

I'm sure I'm making it harder on myself than it has to be, considering the magic and easy to use guns, but I'm not a front line fighter to begin with. I attack silently from a hundred meters away with a Called Shot. That won't be the situation all the time, I know, but I have teammates for a reason.

[koogco]

As WorkOver said, throwing stuff should never be your only way of dealing damage. I for one have a GM that doesnt look too kindly on munchkinning (well actually, we take turns GM'ing, and the policy is what we agreed on) which means that i get the opportunitu to be decend in more than one way, as opposed to having to specialize extremely just to keep up with a group of munchkins. Not that power-characters isnt fun, some of our fondest memories are from a short shadowrun game back when we where completely new to the settings and we all spent hours making power characters. It just doesnt stay fun for very long in my oppinion, and most people arent world elite with an assault rifle, so it makes more sense to spread your character a bit more (but as said, it requires the other players to do it somewhat aswell, or you will be left behind)

As a game, Shadowrun has its ups and downs like any other, the big ones for me is the believability (most rules are fairly realistic without being too complicated, so is the setting) and the powerfull character generation.
I don't know if the rest of your group is new to the game, but its a great idea to sit down with the whole group and talk a bit about the power level. Showing up with light guns is not much fun if the rest of the players and the NPC's are packing assault rifles.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just to warn you, many of my players have tried this concept, in the end, they all made new toons. This is a very very boring character type, that depends on a GM to make you a setting where it will be useful. With the level cap on power throw, your power will top out quick, and you can max out this character at character creation.

The other players will grow and get better, you will depend on what all you can throw, but will be the same boring character at 50 or 500 karma.

You will soon enough start throwing knives, and then that will top out, in the end, if you want to throw things as your main mode of attack, throw spells, or throw bullets.

Power throw is a great back up weapon concept, but in a world where NPCs will blast you with 10P mana bolts, and 7p assault rifles, on full auto, your measly power throw will get ya killed. That is, again, depending on if your GM has mercy and leaves out spell slingers and gun slingers.

I do not actually agree with this sentiment...

I am really enjoying my character a lot (an Oni Ninja) and I do not rely upon the GM to provide me with my opportunities... I am just as susceptible to the whims of the world as anyone else is, and I do not demand that the GM bend his world to my nature... I play the Sneaky bastard, who finds his own ways, and when I need to make an attack, it is dependant upon situation... If I am within melee range, I just draw my sword and fight it out in melee... if I am at Range, then I use the Shurikens (or whatever happens to be laying around, Yay Missile Mastery)...

Yes, you can max the concept for throwing at character creation (at least as far as your maximum levels in Power Throw are concerned, but there are so many things to spend karma on that the character can ONLY get better as the Karma Flows...

And you might want to look at Power Throw again... Measly is not the word... My Ninja has a 16 Strength for Thrown Weapons (that is Base 8p Damage) and with Missile Mastery that increases to 9p for the Shuriken... Much better than your average Assault Riflle, wouldn't you say, and My range increments (16/32/80/112) are better than a Heavy Pistol (By a Lot) and as good as a an SMG (and really, how often do you engage opponents outside of 100 Meters anyway)... so I am pretty confident that the Power Throwing character can hold his own agains the Gun Bunnies... and with the damage that I put out (vs. Impact armor no less) my damage output is just as good, if not often better... Since I am an Adept, I have fair defenses against magic as well, though not complete by any means... that will come with initiation (and Magic Attribute Increase) of course... And for reference, my Magic Attribute is a 4, and my Thrown Weapons Skill is a 2, with a Specialty in Shurikens: 12 Total Dice for attack.

And here is the Kicker... I can get into those places with a damage potential that far outstrips most Firearms/Military Weapons, while you are still trying to figure out a way to get your weapons in the door... There is something to be said about subtle...

Don't deride something that you may possibly not truly understand... a well done Missile Master can definitely hold his own against both Spell Slingers and Gun Bunnies, make no mistake...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Being an Ork with high STR to begin with and Power Throw 4, as high as I can go with my Chargen 4 Magic for now, I'm already sitting at 8P unless I've done something wrong. I honestly don't know how much karma the advancement requires yet, but I figure via initiation over time, raising my Magic with it and Power Throw, my damage will do nothing but go up.

I'm sure I'm making it harder on myself than it has to be, considering the magic and easy to use guns, but I'm not a front line fighter to begin with. I attack silently from a hundred meters away with a Called Shot. That won't be the situation all the time, I know, but I have teammates for a reason.

Well, the only thing out of whack is that Power Throw can only have a Max of 3 levels... so you will get .25 Power Points back for that... (for clarification, you might want to look in the Street Magic Errata)...

Don't let anyone get you down, you have a great idea for a character, and it can only get better with time and Karma...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As a game, Shadowrun has its ups and downs like any other, the big ones for me is the believability (most rules are fairly realistic without being too complicated, so is the setting) and the powerfull character generation.
I don't know if the rest of your group is new to the game, but its a great idea to sit down with the whole group and talk a bit about the power level. Showing up with light guns is not much fun if the rest of the players and the NPC's are packing assault rifles.

Ligth Pistols are so much easier to hide, and I actually prefer them to Assault Rifles in most circumstances...

Keep the Faith

[JoelHalpern]

I tend to link the throwing adept. Yes, the throwing is capped. But it is easy to have enough damage to compete with a SMG on short burst.
A few martial arts tricks (like having ready weapon as a free action) can help. You do give up any smartlink advantage for that aspect.
One of the interesting things is that you end up with range3s that are longer than pistols, although not up to Assault Rifles.

And yes, I would usually couple it with some sort of large, long range gun. (depending upon setting and the exact character, an LMG, a modified Sniper Rifle, or an Ares Alpha will do for those situations that require serious firepower.)

Part of it is that while this is a well known archetype, it is at least less common than the Orc Gunbunny (which I am running in my play-by-wave game.)

Yours,
Joel

[Karoline]

Is there anywhere in the world that still produces material currency I could have my fixer get a hold of, or am I going to have to pay extra and grab some antique currency....? I don't really want to just be a general improvised thrower.

I'd imagine currency is still in use in some places, and you might still be able to find nuyen floating around without it being antique, but it is going to be uncommon/rare, and it will be a huge calling card for your character, which can be both cool and potentially dangerous.

Another option is that you could use counterfeit nuyen. A Nanoforge (or microfab or whatever it is called) could make very convincing counterfeits (and might be part of the reason that physical currency has fallen out of use).

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I agree, I've seen the power throw build work exceedingly well. Sure, it maybe can't keep up with the damage of a mage (what can?) or a full auto burst from an assault rifle (About the only thing that can), but it is basically on par with the base weapon, without any sort of legality or concealability issues, and it doesn't have to be the only thing a character does any more than the ability to use an assault rifle is the only thing a street sam has going for them. They also can start out 'maxed out' just like virtually any other character in the game can. You can easily start with a 6 automatics, speced assault rifle, maxed agility with muscle toner 4 and the only assault rifle you'll ever want to use. Does that mean that such a character is pointless because they can no longer improve their ability to use an assault rifle?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I agree, I've seen the power throw build work exceedingly well. Sure, it maybe can't keep up with the damage of a mage (what can?) or a full auto burst from an assault rifle (About the only thing that can), but it is basically on par with the base weapon, without any sort of legality or concealability issues, and it doesn't have to be the only thing a character does any more than the ability to use an assault rifle is the only thing a street sam has going for them. They also can start out 'maxed out' just like virtually any other character in the game can. You can easily start with a 6 automatics, speced assault rifle, maxed agility with muscle toner 4 and the only assault rifle you'll ever want to use. Does that mean that such a character is pointless because they can no longer improve their ability to use an assault rifle?

You get no arguments from me on that point at all... even if you are the Best of the Best, tehre is always room for improvement... after all, you are only the Best of the Best in a single skill, assuming that you spec for that skill at character creation... there are a lot more things to do in the world than just killing your opponents...

Characters are more than the stats on the paper... I truly enjoy finding out just who my characters are, and where they are going... it is a lot of fun...

Keep the Faith

[Karoline]

P.S.
I really like the idea of this character, and may have to make my own version. My only real question is should the character be male or female... can see male fitting the picture rather nicely, but I generally play females... *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

P.S.
I really like the idea of this character, and may have to make my own version. My only real question is should the character be male or female... can see male fitting the picture rather nicely, but I generally play females... *shrug*

They can both be really intriguing I would think...
They bring their own unique dynamic... I have tended to notice that Female Characters (whether played by Male or Female Gamers) tend to have a very different outlook than Male Characters do... which is oftentimes very interesting to me...

Keep the Faith

[Flowman]

I tried making one of these characters before. I got caught up on the idea of throwing say impact detonating grenades.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I tried making one of these characters before. I got caught up on the idea of throwing say impact detonating grenades.

That really is just adding Insult to Injury in my opinion... especially when the impact alone just might kill the target...

Keep the Faith

[General Pax]

I understand the appeal of the concept, but it really is a weak concept. I would rather just take DISTANCE STRIKE and focus on being an unarmed dynamo. Now you cannot only do the same thing, namely going from unarmed to completely deadly, but you don't need any props to do so either. And youll be far more effective to boot especially if your GM lets you have fun with powers like ELEMENTAL STRIKE so you can shoot fireballs from your hands and whatnot. Yes I know those powers arent compatible but thats a silly rule and well worth asking your GM about. Even without it you have options like PENETRATRATING STRIKE and NERVE STRIKE to make your attacks more versatile and interesting.

MISSILE MASTER and POWER THROW are rather boring in comparison to those options.

[Karoline]

Thought penetrating strike and nerve strike were also not compatible with distance strike. Also, you're limited to magic meters as distance if I'm remembering correctly, which means even an ultra kick ass super hyper adept will only have about a 10m range compared to the 100+ range of the person with missile mastery. And I hardly consider having an object as anything difficult to manage.

You're also leaving out the option of throwing more interesting things than random objects. As someone mentioned, grenades. Also poisoned darts. Just for fun, throw bullets to confuse the heck out of the forensic team. Honestly I don't see Missile Mastery and Power Throw as boring compared to penetrating strike and Nerve Strike. If anything it is the opposite, since a punch is a punch, but with missile mastery you can add a rather interesting twist based on what you commonly throw.

[LFG]

Fun concept. I'd consider going the manufactured coin route. Could even use a specific type of coin as a marker, though that could get you noticed.

[TheMidnightHobo]

It seems like this concept is more popular than I had thought! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I too am currently playing a variation on this concept, as a super focused Throwing Adept/Infiltrator... 20 dice for throwing anything that he can, well, pick up and 10 to 15 for his other skills. Is he a combat monster? Unequivocally; but I built him that way. Is he narrow? Not at all; I always find myself with something to do. Remember, there are no narrow characters, only players who lack initiative. If you find yourself bored every session, look at how you are playing your character before blaming the GM. And as for being weak, my character just tonight took two force 5 spirits down to 1 or 2 hit boxes, with one thermal smoke grenade to the face each (smacks them hard for damage, then blocks their meat and astral vision! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif) ).

Looking at this build, the major changes I would make would involve getting more money; take synaptic booster down to 2 and you can get so many more bio (and even more cyber!) goodies.

In my group we don't apply the improvised weapon penalties, as we thought that would seem counter to the point of the missile mastery skill.

In regards to your specialization, my GM let me take a specialization in "Small Objects," which covers anything roughly two inches in diameter and roughly symmetrical; we figured that would be about as broad as most firearms specializations. Personally, I think an "improvised weapons" specialization is absolutely ridiculous. After all, how can you "specialize" in using whatever you can get your hands on?

[Railgun]

Thanks for the advice and responses. They have been useful and informative. I do understand the idea of the concept drawing attention. I even went as far as grabbing the negative quality Distinct Style. A nanoforge might be a good idea, thank you for that suggestion.

Glad to hear other people having fun with this kind of character. Dropping Synaptic Boosters a rank could be a good idea, then I could even drop Restricted Gear for more BP. 4 IPs might really be overkill. With 3 I can get off max Take Aims and a Called Shot in one Combat Turn anyway for snipe shots. Suggestions for the freed up 0.5 Essence and 80,000¥?

The Power Throw limit kinda rains on the parade a little as far as offensive power is concerned, but frankly I'm not disappointed by that. It lets me focus more on broadening my character as I play rather than worry about dumping karma on a few more points of damage. Thanks for the info.

This post has been edited by Railgun: May 30 2010, 04:49 AM

[Whipstitch]

In regards to your specialization, my GM let me take a specialization in "Small Objects," which covers anything roughly two inches in diameter and roughly symmetrical; we figured that would be about as broad as most firearms specializations. Personally, I think an "improvised weapons" specialization is absolutely ridiculous. After all, how can you "specialize" in using whatever you can get your hands on?

The same way you can specialize in everything that's a "small object." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Hell, I think "Improvised weapons" makes more sense than "small objects," to be brutally honest, especially if you don't come up with a somewhat arbitrary "2 inches and symmetrical" definition. A small object can be anything that's well, small, right up to some of the shuriken you normally have to get individual specs for. An improvised weapon, on the other hand, is anything that is not considered a traditional weapon. That at least rules a lot of things the more rules lawyer-ish characters are likely to start lugging around with them, and it's honestly not that hard to explain the spec as saying that the character has a knack for compensating for the lack of aerodynamic qualities in the stuff he decides to throw, but that it doesn't do him much good when he's trying to throw something that's already designed to hit the target with a nice tight spiral.

[Railgun]

The specialization thing does have me wondering. I guess I really should just leave that up to the GM to decide exactly how diverse he wants it to go. The way I figure my adept powers interact with my improvised ammo is that I play with the kinetic energy and use it to increase the velocity drastically beyond just my throwing strength....kinda like a Railgun, hence the codename for my character.

So while, concept-wise, that'd fall under pretty much anything I can pick up, even I think game play wise, Improvised specialization might be pushing it. I'll just leave it blank and talk to my GM about it.

[Whipstitch]

It shouldn't really be pushing it as long as he does go ahead and keep implementing the penalties for using an improvised weapon. Honestly, I'm not so sure why people are in such a rush to poo poo the idea of keeping the penalty even if the character has the improv specialization (because really, you're not the only one who has brought it up.) I just look at it this way: The +2 dice from specialization represents the limit of your ability to compensate for unwieldiness. If that swallows up the penalty and you end up with a small bonus compared to a guy using a "normal" weapon but without a specialization, then, well, to me that sounds like it's working as intended. Same deal if you're trying to use clubs to beat down a guy with a 2x4. The other guy could just as easily have had a sword and the sword spec and still beat you in dice, after all, and often times "real" weapons still have superior damage codes compared to their improvised brethren.

Really, the only area where I disagree with the penalty for being unwieldy is when you have the Exotic Weapon proficiency for something and yet you're still stuck with a -1 for being awkward, like with the monofilament chainsaw, for example. With Exotic Weapons, the entire point is being able to use that particular implement, after all. To me, that's a different situation than a Arnis fighter beating up a guy with an old damp length of wood.

[Banaticus]

Ok, the concept is thrown weapons. That's going to require a lot of strength. A troll can (without any special qualities) have 6 more strength than a human, for +3 DV. That's fairly significant. Now, I'm just seeing muscle augmentation, which only has 1-4 rating. So, you're going to have to get cyberarms to truly max out your Strength.
The problem is that you can't start with all the ways to raise strength at character creation -- it technically costs 40 BP and you can only spend 35 in positive qualities. So, we'll buy registered credsticks to hold our money and get uber cyberarms after character creation

Start with a troll (40 BP)
1 exceptional attribute (20 BP and must spend 10 more BP to raise the attribute -- p91 SR4A)
1 genetic optimization (10 BP, also costs 45k nuyen or 9 BP and must spend 10 more BP to raise the attribute -- p89, Au)

Now, all we want is to raise the max, we really don't care about spending more strength, as we're going to get cyberarms, so right now you've spent... 79 BP for a Strength of 5, but with a natural max of 12 and an augmented max of 17.

Now get the cyberarms.
Base cost 15k (obvious cyberarm -- also comes with 15 capacity)
10 increases to get to the natural max of 13 = 15k nuyen
5 increases to get to the augmented max of 17 = 1.25k nuyen
31,250 nuyen each = 62.5k nuyen total
But, the availability of each is high, so we need two RC qualities to let us buy something over availability 12 or 10 more BP.
So, the cost of these arms, added to the 9 BP we already spent on resources, total of 22 BP spent on resources, plus the 10 on qualities.

So, now your strength is 16 in each arm and you have 7 capacity left over in each arm. Not enough for a gyromount and a cyberslide, but you can still pack some good stuff in there. So, now go back in time and get the max of 3 levels of Missile Mastery for 3 points (5 BP)

Base DV of (strength/2+3) or base DV 11 for any thrown objects. That's a good deal better than light pistols and you have better range. And it only cost...
40 (race) + 20 (quality) + 10 (quality) + 31 (45k+62.5k) + 10 (availability qualities) = 111 BP for a base DV of 11 on thrown objects, although I forgot the BP cost of being an adept and buying Magic up -- see the end.

Now, how can we totally pimp this troll out? By making his cyberarms have awesome agility too. We can only take 5 more positive qualities, but a character could genetically optimize themselves (p89 Au) then surge for further optimization (p114 RC) after character creation, then get the cyberarms retrofitted for +2 more agility. I leave that as an exercise for the reader. We didn't surge for strength because damage is strength/2, so an odd number doesn't make a difference (and it didn't fit anyway).

So...
2 increases to get to the natural max of 5, then 2 more for the augmented max of 7 = 3k + 500 = 3.5k, just spend another BP.

Skill 6 + 2 (specialty in some type of throwing, probably overhand or baseball style, although I guess you could go underhand or softball style or coins or whatever)

.5 magic points spend on quick draw
1.5 magic points spent on improved ability (throwing weapons)

7+6+2+3 = 18 dice on thrown weapon tests, which will augment a base of DV 11, for a total of 112 BP. Adept is 5 BP, this requires at least Magic of 4.5 (or 5), so at least 50 BP on magic. 167 BP total spent so far. So, go spend 233 on skills or improving logic or willpower or body or another point of magic for some mystic armor or whatever.

Now, quick drawing with each hand makes you split your dice pool. I think the base DV is high enough that in most cases you should be ok. Quick draw with each hand, so...
In one IP, you do: 4 attacks, all with 9 dice on DV 11, or two attacks with 18 dice on DV 11.

This is really long and not all that well formatted, but it's late.

Edit: Wait, no, adding those two qualities gives a natural max of 12, so an augmented max of 18. Base DV is 12, not 11.
A human can only get 9 DV, instead of 12 DV. I don't think 4 DV is worth getting the extra 2 dice (or 4, if you pick up two qualities for agility and buy it up, but that's all really expensive and just not worth it).

Further edit: and 1 or 2 more BP for the resources to get strength up that high, I haven't done the math on how much was left over during the last resource expenditure.