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pster
post Jun 2 2010, 03:42 AM
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I've got this scenario where I'm ambushing 2 guards patrolling. I roll infiltrate to sneak up to them from behind vs their hearing perception right? And lets say I beat that. Lets say one guard is a little more further back like 3-5 metres behind the other guard. I go up to the one furthest back and backstab him. Everyone rolls a surprise test roll right? I get the +6 dice from ambush. What I'm asking is will the guard further ahead notice me? Lets say I cover the guy's mouth with my hand and pierce a knife from behind. Does his friend automatically notice me since we already are rolling initiative for combat or would his friend get to roll another perception check threshold 3 for muffled. So in the event he failed that perception test again, I get to surprise him in the 2nd pass if he also failed the initial surprise test earlier. Since he did not manage to perceive that his friend was killed.
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Ramorta
post Jun 2 2010, 04:40 AM
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If you have a higher initiative then your target in a suprise round, they canno't react to your character (your effectively invisible) this includes defense. So you can sneak attack/backstab/decapitate whatever you wish to call it, as many targets as possable in the suprise round(provided you roll well on your intitiative check). All subsequent rounds are treated normally.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 2 2010, 05:08 AM
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I'm not sure that a nearby NPC would notice your actions at all unless he succeeded at hearing/seeing/smelling/whatever. There's not 'battle mode on' quality of initiative that I'm aware of.

You and the first target would start initiatives (although hopefully you'd just Surprise and murder him), and then the other enemy could *join* the battle if he found out about it.
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Ramorta
post Jun 2 2010, 05:20 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 1 2010, 09:08 PM) *
I'm not sure that a nearby NPC would notice your actions at all unless he succeeded at hearing/seeing/smelling/whatever. There's not 'battle mode on' quality of initiative that I'm aware of.

You and the first target would start initiatives (although hopefully you'd just Surprise and murder him), and then the other enemy could *join* the battle if he found out about it.


I think he was more refering to the attack "breaking stealth". In so much as, as soon as he attacks, he is no longer sneaking, and thus is immediately visible (perception test = 0). So as long as guard #2 doesn't glitch his perception test, he would notice.
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toturi
post Jun 2 2010, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE (Ramorta @ Jun 2 2010, 01:20 PM) *
I think he was more refering to the attack "breaking stealth". In so much as, as soon as he attacks, he is no longer sneaking, and thus is immediately visible (perception test = 0). So as long as guard #2 doesn't glitch his perception test, he would notice.

I would note that the rules do not state what is immediately noticeable. IIRC, there isn't an example of what is immediately noticeable, while there are examples of Perception Thresholds for various things. I would also note that something that is immediately noticeable does not require a Perception check at all and not that it is Perception Test Threshold 0.
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Lansdren
post Jun 2 2010, 08:37 AM
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I think this is going to come under GM ruling more then anything.

My current thoughts would be a perception test for the guard to see if he notices his friend not following / making a noise but I would put forward the idea that two guards strolling about checking doors and what not would make noise themselves and it might not be noticed. This would be especially so with a reduced dice pool for not being attentive or distracted so you could (if the distance was enough) do the whole silent kill then back off with the body round the corner.

Eventually you will be noticed but for drama I would probably let it play out a bit.

As ever fun and good story trump ambivalent rules
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AKWeaponsSpecial...
post Jun 2 2010, 08:55 AM
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I don't see how one could be killed without making noise....not if one intends to kill them both in quick succession. If one has the strength to lift one of the ground until the corpse finishes twitching, or carries it into a room down the hall (praying to whatever entity they worship), THEN, perhaps, one could make another stealthy kill. Otherwise, it would be highly unlikely to catch the second unawares (unless, that is, one is forgoing subtlety and uses a wide burst with a silenced SMG).
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IKerensky
post Jun 2 2010, 09:48 AM
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I suppose the guards are unarmed.. and walking on a heavy carpet. I think even the fact that he doesn't hear his buddy walking behind him would be enough to trigger the guard attention.. The sound of his weapon discharging or falling on the floor...

Not to mention the mumbling on the comm-link or the sub-vocal shout for help. I am pretty sure patrolling guard have all a RFiD bio-pin that goes off when put unconscious/killed, so cheap it should be pretty standard procedure for security team.

I think that sneak kill are things of the past or need to work in coordination with a hacker...
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Tachi
post Jun 2 2010, 10:29 AM
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I can see this thread getting ugly quickly if I don't tread carefully, so I'm gonna say my peace and then not answer any rebuttals, if anyone doesn't like that, you can eat me.

First, when I was a teenager I met a man who was a Viet Nam vet, 3 tours, first as an "observer", last one with 3rd SOG TLC. He was one of the NCOs chosen to build Delta. He taught me knife combat (among other things), ignoring what didn't work, and literally pounding into me those techniques which he had proven in combat.

Second, I have no combat experience, excepting a short stint in Mexico, and I'm not going to go into that. I'll just say that the few times (2) that I've used a knife to defend myself, the point was to bleed my opponent before he bled me, and nobody died, stealth was absolutely not involved.

Third, there are places on the human body where you can stab that will prevent a person from making any noise whatsoever. Cutting the throat is actually fairly loud, blood sprays, victim thrashes, hissing sound as they try to scream through a gaping hole. Hitting the lung prevents screaming, but they will still thrash around. Hitting the base of the skull will kill them instantly, like flipping a light switch, but, that is a very hard target to hit when someone is walking. If you want to hit the brain-stem, they pretty much need to be pinned facedown on the ground. Now, the prefered silent/quick kill method is to hit the kidney. The nerve cluster there will overload their nervous system and paralyze the diaphram. They will stiffen and freeze, less than five percent will actually be able to perform an action of any kind, usually consisting of a few twitches and a quiet croaking sound. Additionally, this is considered one of the most painful and terrifying ways to die.

My firend taught me all of these techniques but focused on the kidney for a stealthy kill. Unlike me, he has had extensive experience with these techniques in actual combat. And no, I have no intention of repeating any of the stories he told me. Least of all because they all start out with, "We were in this place, doing this thing..."


So, if you are trying for a silent kill with another target nearby, I would first require a called shot to hit the right place with your knife. Successful attack gets you a clean (no modifiers) perception test to notice that his partner is no longer making any noise at all. Outside, with background noise (machinery, traffic, jungle noise), I may not even require the Perception test if you succeed in the attack. Inside a building (quiet offices after hours, silent echoing warehouse), the perception would be very necessary. Also, dragging a body make distinctive scraping sounds. Modifiers are all GM discretion based on ambient noise.
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Draco18s
post Jun 2 2010, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (IKerensky @ Jun 2 2010, 05:48 AM) *
The sound of his weapon discharging or falling on the floor...


Last I checked, knifes don't make gunshots.

As for the "falling on the floor problem, you can catch the body of the dead guy and lay him on the floor. Unless you made steaks out of him with a monofilament whip.
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Adarael
post Jun 2 2010, 05:43 PM
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Yeah, but knives tend to make victims thrash, shriek, and spaz out at worst, and at best, they still gurgle and spill blood everywhere. It's *really* hard to kill someone silently and without any kind of physical disturbance. I've allowed this kind of thing in the past, but I've always demanded a second Infiltration roll at a threshold between 1 and 4 (depending on how noisy it is around) to effectively "silence" the target while they die. And it won't work at all unless you one-shot the target.
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Critias
post Jun 2 2010, 05:51 PM
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*eats popcorn*
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Adarael
post Jun 2 2010, 06:03 PM
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I totally just realized I was just echoing what Tachi was driving at, except much less robustly.
So ignore me: listen to Tachi, because he's saying what I said, except better.

As an aside, this entire question is rendered moot when I'm feeling like a jerkface and make players have to enter a maximum-security facility: biomonitors hooked up to every guard, sharing information with a central system, monitored by deckers. Makes it hard as hell to just off guards - or even knock them out - without making everything to go to hell. But it opens delicious hacking opportunities.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 2 2010, 06:34 PM
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Nothing wrong with requiring a Test to make the melee kill stealthy, or maybe raising the Threshold of the melee attack itself (fewer net hits for damage). But it's a mistake to say (as in *other* threads) that a stealth knife kill isn't possible; it's Shadowrun, Rule of Cool, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yes, they definitely should have wireless biomonitor-ing; better hack that first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Ascalaphus
post Jun 2 2010, 06:38 PM
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It's not so difficult; make sure you have multiple IPs. Surprise both guards, then kill both in IPs 1,2,..N.
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Adarael
post Jun 2 2010, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 2 2010, 11:34 AM) *
But it's a mistake to say (as in *other* threads) that a stealth knife kill isn't possible; it's Shadowrun, Rule of Cool, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Definitely. Difficult often means "quite possible if you're bad-ass" in Shadowrun, I've noticed.
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Draco18s
post Jun 2 2010, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jun 2 2010, 02:38 PM) *
It's not so difficult; make sure you have multiple IPs. Surprise both guards, then kill both in IPs 1,2,..N.


Except that the guards will always go on IP 1. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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DireRadiant
post Jun 2 2010, 07:08 PM
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Edge.
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Whipstitch
post Jun 2 2010, 07:13 PM
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Well, you cannot act against anyone who has Surprise against you during the first pass of combat, but I think you can do general actions like drop prone etc. I'm just not really sure how appropriate it is to have a guard yell that he's being attacked by someone you're Surprised by enough not to be able to shoot or defend against.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Jun 2 2010, 07:27 PM
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 2 2010, 07:34 PM
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My point is that unless Guard #2 is actually looking at you, or you make an obvious noise (etc.), he's not automatically 'in combat' with you while you murder his partner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Draco18s
post Jun 2 2010, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 2 2010, 03:08 PM) *
Edge.


Edge does not give you more passes like that. You act (surprise round), you act (first round), you spend edge for another round, the guards still go (pass 1)! Then you get your second pass (edged or not).
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Whipstitch
post Jun 2 2010, 07:42 PM
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Surprise isn't a round unto itself. Surprise is effectively an advantage you wield against other characters during the course of the first Initiative Pass of a given combat turn. Remember that Surprise can come up during the course of an ongoing combat as people enter the fray.
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Draco18s
post Jun 2 2010, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Jun 2 2010, 03:42 PM) *
Surprise isn't a round unto itself. Surprise is effectively an advantage you wield against other characters during the course of the first Initiative Pass. Remember that Surprise can come up during the course of an ongoing combat as people enter the fray.


Which only makes stabbing two guys without being noticed even more difficult.

For example if I stab someone who was unaware of my presence, and then win initiative, who goes next? Me, who was already prepared to double-tap the surprised guy, or the surprised guy (because I already used up my first pass)?
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LurkerOutThere
post Jun 2 2010, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 2 2010, 02:34 PM) *
My point is that unless Guard #2 is actually looking at you, or you make an obvious noise (etc.), he's not automatically 'in combat' with you while you murder his partner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Remember that the initiative system maps a large number of things that are not really "In combat" but also a method of measuring how things happen in relation to each other. How I would run things as a GM is have the character make a suprise roll against both targets with modifiers as appropriate.
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Whipstitch
post Jun 2 2010, 07:51 PM
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It's really a pretty nebulous thing. In the Surprise examples I believe they had the GM make a Perception test for one of the characters to determine if he was aware he was being ambushed yet, since it was his turn but nobody he could act upon had been able to go yet. It's an awkward system in some ways, but I do like that isn't all in lock step. Combat really is a whole bunch of people with imperfect information all trying not to get killed at once, after all.
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