I've got this scenario where I'm ambushing 2 guards patrolling. I roll infiltrate to sneak up to them from behind vs their hearing perception right? And lets say I beat that. Lets say one guard is a little more further back like 3-5 metres behind the other guard. I go up to the one furthest back and backstab him. Everyone rolls a surprise test roll right? I get the +6 dice from ambush. What I'm asking is will the guard further ahead notice me? Lets say I cover the guy's mouth with my hand and pierce a knife from behind. Does his friend automatically notice me since we already are rolling initiative for combat or would his friend get to roll another perception check threshold 3 for muffled. So in the event he failed that perception test again, I get to surprise him in the 2nd pass if he also failed the initial surprise test earlier. Since he did not manage to perceive that his friend was killed.

If you have a higher initiative then your target in a suprise round, they canno't react to your character (your effectively invisible) this includes defense. So you can sneak attack/backstab/decapitate whatever you wish to call it, as many targets as possable in the suprise round(provided you roll well on your intitiative check). All subsequent rounds are treated normally.

I'm not sure that a nearby NPC would notice your actions at all unless he succeeded at hearing/seeing/smelling/whatever. There's not 'battle mode on' quality of initiative that I'm aware of.

You and the first target would start initiatives (although hopefully you'd just Surprise and murder him), and then the other enemy could *join* the battle if he found out about it.

I think he was more refering to the attack "breaking stealth". In so much as, as soon as he attacks, he is no longer sneaking, and thus is immediately visible (perception test = 0). So as long as guard #2 doesn't glitch his perception test, he would notice.

I would note that the rules do not state what is immediately noticeable. IIRC, there isn't an example of what is immediately noticeable, while there are examples of Perception Thresholds for various things. I would also note that something that is immediately noticeable does not require a Perception check at all and not that it is Perception Test Threshold 0.

I think this is going to come under GM ruling more then anything.

My current thoughts would be a perception test for the guard to see if he notices his friend not following / making a noise but I would put forward the idea that two guards strolling about checking doors and what not would make noise themselves and it might not be noticed. This would be especially so with a reduced dice pool for not being attentive or distracted so you could (if the distance was enough) do the whole silent kill then back off with the body round the corner.

Eventually you will be noticed but for drama I would probably let it play out a bit.

As ever fun and good story trump ambivalent rules

I don't see how one could be killed without making noise....not if one intends to kill them both in quick succession. If one has the strength to lift one of the ground until the corpse finishes twitching, or carries it into a room down the hall (praying to whatever entity they worship), THEN, perhaps, one could make another stealthy kill. Otherwise, it would be highly unlikely to catch the second unawares (unless, that is, one is forgoing subtlety and uses a wide burst with a silenced SMG).

I suppose the guards are unarmed.. and walking on a heavy carpet. I think even the fact that he doesn't hear his buddy walking behind him would be enough to trigger the guard attention.. The sound of his weapon discharging or falling on the floor...

Not to mention the mumbling on the comm-link or the sub-vocal shout for help. I am pretty sure patrolling guard have all a RFiD bio-pin that goes off when put unconscious/killed, so cheap it should be pretty standard procedure for security team.

I think that sneak kill are things of the past or need to work in coordination with a hacker...

I can see this thread getting ugly quickly if I don't tread carefully, so I'm gonna say my peace and then not answer any rebuttals, if anyone doesn't like that, you can eat me.

First, when I was a teenager I met a man who was a Viet Nam vet, 3 tours, first as an "observer", last one with 3rd SOG TLC. He was one of the NCOs chosen to build Delta. He taught me knife combat (among other things), ignoring what didn't work, and literally pounding into me those techniques which he had proven in combat.

Second, I have no combat experience, excepting a short stint in Mexico, and I'm not going to go into that. I'll just say that the few times (2) that I've used a knife to defend myself, the point was to bleed my opponent before he bled me, and nobody died, stealth was absolutely not involved.

Third, there are places on the human body where you can stab that will prevent a person from making any noise whatsoever. Cutting the throat is actually fairly loud, blood sprays, victim thrashes, hissing sound as they try to scream through a gaping hole. Hitting the lung prevents screaming, but they will still thrash around. Hitting the base of the skull will kill them instantly, like flipping a light switch, but, that is a very hard target to hit when someone is walking. If you want to hit the brain-stem, they pretty much need to be pinned facedown on the ground. Now, the prefered silent/quick kill method is to hit the kidney. The nerve cluster there will overload their nervous system and paralyze the diaphram. They will stiffen and freeze, less than five percent will actually be able to perform an action of any kind, usually consisting of a few twitches and a quiet croaking sound. Additionally, this is considered one of the most painful and terrifying ways to die.

My firend taught me all of these techniques but focused on the kidney for a stealthy kill. Unlike me, he has had extensive experience with these techniques in actual combat. And no, I have no intention of repeating any of the stories he told me. Least of all because they all start out with, "We were in this place, doing this thing..."


So, if you are trying for a silent kill with another target nearby, I would first require a called shot to hit the right place with your knife. Successful attack gets you a clean (no modifiers) perception test to notice that his partner is no longer making any noise at all. Outside, with background noise (machinery, traffic, jungle noise), I may not even require the Perception test if you succeed in the attack. Inside a building (quiet offices after hours, silent echoing warehouse), the perception would be very necessary. Also, dragging a body make distinctive scraping sounds. Modifiers are all GM discretion based on ambient noise.

Last I checked, knifes don't make gunshots.

As for the "falling on the floor problem, you can catch the body of the dead guy and lay him on the floor. Unless you made steaks out of him with a monofilament whip.

Yeah, but knives tend to make victims thrash, shriek, and spaz out at worst, and at best, they still gurgle and spill blood everywhere. It's *really* hard to kill someone silently and without any kind of physical disturbance. I've allowed this kind of thing in the past, but I've always demanded a second Infiltration roll at a threshold between 1 and 4 (depending on how noisy it is around) to effectively "silence" the target while they die. And it won't work at all unless you one-shot the target.

*eats popcorn*

I totally just realized I was just echoing what Tachi was driving at, except much less robustly.
So ignore me: listen to Tachi, because he's saying what I said, except better.

As an aside, this entire question is rendered moot when I'm feeling like a jerkface and make players have to enter a maximum-security facility: biomonitors hooked up to every guard, sharing information with a central system, monitored by deckers. Makes it hard as hell to just off guards - or even knock them out - without making everything to go to hell. But it opens delicious hacking opportunities.

Nothing wrong with requiring a Test to make the melee kill stealthy, or maybe raising the Threshold of the melee attack itself (fewer net hits for damage). But it's a mistake to say (as in *other* threads) that a stealth knife kill isn't possible; it's Shadowrun, Rule of Cool, etc.

Yes, they definitely should have wireless biomonitor-ing; better hack that first.

It's not so difficult; make sure you have multiple IPs. Surprise both guards, then kill both in IPs 1,2,..N.

Definitely. Difficult often means "quite possible if you're bad-ass" in Shadowrun, I've noticed.

Except that the guards will always go on IP 1.

Edge.

Well, you cannot act against anyone who has Surprise against you during the first pass of combat, but I think you can do general actions like drop prone etc. I'm just not really sure how appropriate it is to have a guard yell that he's being attacked by someone you're Surprised by enough not to be able to shoot or defend against.

My point is that unless Guard #2 is actually looking at you, or you make an obvious noise (etc.), he's not automatically 'in combat' with you while you murder his partner.

Edge does not give you more passes like that. You act (surprise round), you act (first round), you spend edge for another round, the guards still go (pass 1)! Then you get your second pass (edged or not).

Surprise isn't a round unto itself. Surprise is effectively an advantage you wield against other characters during the course of the first Initiative Pass of a given combat turn. Remember that Surprise can come up during the course of an ongoing combat as people enter the fray.

Which only makes stabbing two guys without being noticed even more difficult.

For example if I stab someone who was unaware of my presence, and then win initiative, who goes next? Me, who was already prepared to double-tap the surprised guy, or the surprised guy (because I already used up my first pass)?

Remember that the initiative system maps a large number of things that are not really "In combat" but also a method of measuring how things happen in relation to each other. How I would run things as a GM is have the character make a suprise roll against both targets with modifiers as appropriate.

It's really a pretty nebulous thing. In the Surprise examples I believe they had the GM make a Perception test for one of the characters to determine if he was aware he was being ambushed yet, since it was his turn but nobody he could act upon had been able to go yet. It's an awkward system in some ways, but I do like that isn't all in lock step. Combat really is a whole bunch of people with imperfect information all trying not to get killed at once, after all.

I like to see these questions worked through because I know they are going to come up in my game.

Per RAW, It is spelled out pretty clear on Page 165 of SR4A20A that Surprise only counts on the first Initiative Pass.
If both guards are surprised then they can not act against the attacker on the first Initiative Pass.
So on the second Initiative Pass the guard can if he knows they are being attacked either take his second IP if he has one or abort to Full Defense using an Interrupted Action (SR4A20 page 148).


The best way to do this might be to have the PC split his attack between the two surprised guards. It would not give either guard a chance to respond unless they remained conscious.


Otherwise, I guess the issue in question is can the PC take out two guards before they have a chance to sound the alarm (setting aside the question of an bio monitors (that is what your hacker is for)).


That means that the PC has to take down the first guard without alerting the second one. That is a pretty high bar to get over.

So the second guard has to not be looking directly at the first guard (Maybe a thrown pebble the previous turn or something more high tech like turning a Trivid on using the remote.).

Then the PC will have to one shot drop the other guard. That means Unconsciousness (Dying or out cold with all physical or stun boxes filled in on a monitoring track), stunned (tasered and failed the stun test) or unable to make a sound (I could see using a Called Shot to Subdue a guard in a choke hold so that he couldn't sound an alarm).
Once again a Called Shot would be a good way for a PC to "Take out" a guard and not make a lot of noise doing it.
Given that unless the PC is using the choke method about he has to do it in one IP. One the other hand if the second guard is not paying attention and the PC can keep the first quiet, then he can take more than the first IP to deal with the first.

Third the PC has to do it relatively silently.


Then we would see if the second guard notices his coworker getting fragged with a perception roll.
Depending on how obvious the attack and how close together the guards are the perception roll would have a threshold between 1 to 3.
Obviously a modifier on how alert the guards are will apply (Between of -2 for being distracted to +3 for actively looking for intruders).


Other considerations:
How much background noise is there.
Where they talking to each other (could be a bonus for the PC if the second guard is the talky one)?
What are the visibility conditions (Can the PC pull the first guard out of view).


If the guard got no successes on his perception test then I could see testing for surprise again using Surprise in Combat (SR4A20 page 145) during the second IP.
He just didn't notice or noticed something but couldn't react in time.

If he did notice then can the PC take out the second guard before he can react. If the PC is fast then he has a good chance, but the guard can go full defense.


The other two consideration are how fast is the second guard going to respond once he realizes something is wrong (A lot will depend on how well the perception roll was made) and is he combat experienced enough to keep his cool. Perhaps a Composure Test (WIL + CHA) with professional Rating added?


Does that sound right?


Flip side is if guard is on alert there is nothing saying he can not be delaying an action especially if working as a team. Once guard opens the door and looks around while the other covers him.
Course the trick is for the PC to get to the guard providing the cover first.

Also remember there is nothing wrong with letting a PC pull a cool move once in a while. It is a high bar to get over. You just plan for it and have the real action later on.
Just remind them that nothing goes according to plan and when they are paying you the big Nuyen they expect you to be able to handle anything that does comes up.

I think that sounds reasonable. I really do think the devs intended a good dollop of GM interventionism on this due to the many methods of combat involved in SR4. Being able to start running for cover or to drop prone even if you don't realize where the attackers are makes perfect sense when you finally find yourself in an ambush's crossfire, but that situation is a very a different kettle of fish than a stealthy Mystic Adept casting Death Touch on a guy from within the cozy radius of his Hush spell.

I was speaking about the guard weapon... If they have their weapons armed, they will probably fire a few round while twisting.

Regarding a choke hold, is it considered a subduing check? As far as I know, subduing deals no damage initially in the first pass but you may choose to deal stun damage in the subsequent passes. I was wondering if it is possible to subdue one hand to muffle the voice and simultaneously stab in the back with a melee weapon to deal damage in the first initiative of a surprise round. Maybe a successfull melee attack, then comparing character's strength + net hits vs target's body like a subduing test in SR4. So a character can choke grab target's neck with one hand and stab with other hand at the same time like a stealth kill. This is to limit any sound from the body dropping or death cries from the target.

Basically ou're making two things at once, so I'd make that two actions, with averaged/split pools - one roll to subdue, another one to attack, but both in the same IP.

If you sneak up on two guards patrolling the halls...
...why the fuck do they have their weapons drawn?

That depends entirely on the guard, where they're patrolling, and what weapons they've got. With a long gun, in particular, it's not terribly uncommon for folks to walk around with them in-hand and ready to go.

I don't believe you are allowed to split an attack against the same target. I can't quote it.

Just like you only get taser/shock damage OR hand to hand damage with a shock glove or Stun Baton, but not both.

By default it is not possable to make multiple attacks against the same target in melee. Dual weilding or not. You are likely thinking of the firearm rules.



The only option for splitting your dicepool in melee is attacking multiple targets.



However, it would be possable to make two (or more) attacks with the Finishing Move maneuver. Which sounds like what your trying to do anyways. However, this still would not be splitting your dice pool.

I agree it's not RAW. Since I usually play a mage I'm not exactly familiar with H/H rules.

Here the character basically try to do two things at once so I don't think house-ruling the situation this way (allowing split melee pools on a single target in this very specific context) is abusive.

Last I checked cops and security guards tend to keep their weapons holstered unless in a combat situation.

It's like you've never seen a movie. Patrolling guards with SMGs always have them out, or slung in a ready position.

Also, he specified "long gun", not pistol.

You cannot 'holster' an AK-98. You either have it slung, or in your hands. Anybody packing an AR on a patrol is gonna have it in their hands, because it's just more comfortable to carry it that way.

I missed that bit.

Even so, there is the safety switch. People tend not to thumb that, before pulling the trigger, when they get stabbed in the neck.

Safety, That is what a smartgun link is for



In those cases where someone want to take extra care for a quiet take down (say get a hand over their mouth), I do think a Called Shot is a perfectly valid way by RAW to do so.

You can choke a person to death using subduing by holding it after they go unconscious so there is no need to split the attack to perform two actions on a person.



The fact is any one walking in to an ambush in SR is pretty Royally Fragged six ways to Sunday anyway especially if they are not on alert and just doing a routine patrol.

And a real street samurai ought to be able to take out two average security guards on routine patrol with no fuss if he has time to set up for them and take them from the rear.

As a GM I'd be asking why he wasn't taking them down alive to avoid biomonitor issues and just standard professionalism to keep things clean, quiet, and minimal collateral damage instead of pulling this Trivid razor drek that is going to leave blood every where. But that is just me.

I don't think there's any way to 'take down' someone that avoids a biomonitor alert, especially if you also need to be locally stealthy.

I said I wasn't going to post in this thread again, yet here I am going back on what I said. I fuckin' hate it when that happens, yet here I am doing it anyway. Shit.

First off, a good point was just made about a guard with a long-gun in hand. There are techniques specifically for just such a situation. Approach from behind, hand over the mouth, cut the inside of the elbow of the arm holding the weapon's grip, removing the possibility of pulling the trigger. Then, using the same hand, you reach over the useless arm and stab the heart from the front. Unfortunately, this technique is nowhere near as stealthy as a clean kidney hit and the partner is almost sure to notice. If you have the Initiative and Surprise you can kill the first and the partner cannot attack you, then you still have the advantage of acting first in the second Iniative Pass. Just a thought. Keep in mind that the second guard might still use a Free Action to get off a message or trigger an alarm wirelessly.

Second, there are at least as many different preferred quick-kill methods as there are days in a month, from the Spetnaz affinity for throwing axes to the deception/poison/blade techniques of the oh-so-cliched ninja. However, if you check with modern first-world militaries you'll find that the greatest, most practiced, and preferred quick-kill technique... is a cranial double-tap from a silenced firearm, which alleviates any need to sneak up on them. And, as before, if you have the Initiatve and Surprise, you can kill both without any chance for return fire.

Last, while I don't own SR4A, I doubt the appropriate passage from SR4 changed much in the Anniversary edition,



So, I have no problem with an attacker being able to cover the mouth, cut the inside of the elbow, and stab the heart with a single attack, as long as he has Surprise and uses a called shot, likely with a -4 (or even higher) penalty.

There is a world of difference between someone with no heart beat and someone who is unconscious.

Especially if they never saw it coming or if it was all over in under 6 seconds.

I mean do you want an security alert going off because someone stubbed his toe?

So the question becomes how good is the biomonitor.
Is it implanted or worn.
How good is the monitoring software.
How closely are they monitoring the feed.

I don't think that its too far of a stretch of imagionation to think that the corps would write a program to determine if their guards were sleeping/unconcious. It does measure their heartbeat and an unconcious or sleeping persons heartbeat would be slower then if they were awake and walking around. Also, would it be too far of a stretch to believe that paired guards would have access to view their partners biomoniter data? You don't have to be an expert to notice a red flashing warning that your partners vitals just spiked or dropped. Full scale panic button effect? No, of course not. However, it would warrant the second guard to turn around and look at his partner.

Hell, I'd install software that just to keep Joe Shinybadge from napping on the job, if I was their manager.
But yeah, I think a sleeping/KO'd guy would be much harder to spot, unless you pumped him full of neurostun.

In the interests of full disclosure, I sprang this trap on my players once, and then immediately realized a biomonitor hooked up to stim-juice was the #1 next thing on my street sam's to-buy list in another game. The very next session, I got jumped and KO'd. Jumped up behind the ninja after he thought I'd passed out and unloaded a full burst into him. Comedy gold.

I don't think it is too far a stretch of imagination to think that the bean counters that evaluate such a proposal to can the proposal because of reliability/cost/effectiveness/some reason or another.

I checked the SR4A and was surprised to see that the price of a Sensor RFID Tag linked with a bioscanner would mean 300 NY + 200 per guard...

Of course, it could be part of the standard issued security tag RFiD and work's commlink for large security company and probably megacorp, but not every security unit.

On the other hand this kind of device sound so much interesting it could easily double or triple guard efficiency. And is a lot less vulnerable to hacking that sentry drones...