And Netcat should have had 3 IPs at least and a +2 natural hotsim bonus.

There's a lot of weird stuff going on with those #s...

Skill defaulting, for one, which is kinda ugly if you think about it. 6 logic and 0 skill is better then any logic and 1 skill point.

Exactly.

But you can't default on matrix skills.

*Edit: Checked myself, Hacking, Computer, Data Search, and Cybercombat CAN be defaulted on... sillyness.

Or worse

Logic of 9.

This is the problem I've run into with one of my GMs, who's let my hacker use logic. 6(programs) + 5 (most skills) + 4 (logic-related cyber) + 9 (logic) + 2 (hotsim) = the pornomancer of the Matrix.

Congratz, you broke the rules all over the place and just created something even more rediculous then a Technomancer. XD

For starters: If you're going to skill+attribute, then the attribute bumper (ie: encyphalon) doesn't get to add its bonus twice, rip out the +1/2 it gives to matrix actions if you're taking the logic bump. Second, gotta take the program out too, or you're breaking the skill+attribute structure that you're attempting to mimic. So really, you should be 9(logic) + 5(skill) + 2 (hotsim), with possibly your program rating limiting the # of hits you can get. 16 dice is still a nice reasonable number. 26 before other optimizations is a bit... much.

Yeah, that character was house-ruled to the point of a true clusterfuck. XD One GM house-ruled that another piece of cyberware also applied to hacking. And the +3 to logic came from a cerebral booster.

I like the idea of going logic + skill + hotsim or some cyber (encyphalon) with the program rating limiting the hits, though.

Maybe Netcat's and Slammo's number are wrong because they are not using full VR. They might be both doing it with an A.R. interface. Which probably means that Slammo has some Wired Reflexes, for extra actions in A.R.

But Netcat can't use CFs in AR... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Ignore, answered wrong question...

AR, VR, makes no diff what so ever, both are matrix. its like swapping DE on a unix box.

Ah, the eternal "technomancers are game breaking dragons of the matrix" discussion.

Ah, the eternal "technomancers are game breaking dragons of the matrix" discussion.

In my opinion it's like half of runner's companion. Just because you're given the rules for how to build things in game, doesn't necessarily mean it should be considered a PC. Yes, as a GM, I want to know how to build a Drake BBEG for a 6 man runner team to fight... I don't necessarily think the runner team should have a Fomor as its Street Sam. Or what the stats are for a 2072 M1A1-Abrams equivalent, doesn't mean it's gonna be the runner's ride.

Of course, in this, YMMV, especially if you're going over the top pink mohawk. You're going to need those kind of things to survive it. But yeah, Techno's are over the top. When your average professional mook is a 2/3 in skills and top end spiders other then government/military are 4, MAYBE a 5 if you're being cruel, according to stat sets... yep. Matrix Dragon.

Oh man.
Casual TM hacks? I did not even suspect this.

Do they just image link their bionode over their retinas like with the Smartlink CF?
Wouldn't they still take hotsim damage since their node remains a part of their mind?
Would further reading answer these questions for me?

There are higher rated programs out there, they are just very very hard to come by...

Keep the Faith...

You know, the Technomancer in our group is prettty damn competent, but he is NOT the Matrix God that you are making them out to be... Yes, He is very good at what he does, Yes, he has a 7 Resonance, and Yes, Occassionally, the Hacker kicks his ass in matrix actions (The Hacker is actually Much faster in Initiative/Matrix IP's than the Technomancer is)

And an interesting note about the Sprites... Only 4 of the 10 Sprites, that a Technomancer may utilize, actually have access to an Inherent Stealth CF (A fifth has it as an Optional CF). The Combat Sprites (Machine, Tank and Paladin) do not have them at all, which is a big detriment; so when they come into the node, they are immediately visible; not so with the Hacker's Worms and Agents... Technomancers have their place... And so do Hackers...

Our GM has not had to take any great pains in designing Systems for the Technomancer, no more than he would take in designing one for the Hacker... there are a LOT of ways to slow down an attacker in the Matrix... SOme are more obvious thatn others.

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Says Who?

Keep the Faith

Coupla things. Sorry if I wan't clear, I wasn't talking about the sprite's stealth, I meant the bonus a sprite gives to stealth. They effectively have double the # of attempts (with more dice) to exploit a system on the fly undetected if they really get silly.

EDIT I HAD put in quote pages, most of these are from pg 239 and 241 from SR4a or Unwired malware section, sorry. [/EDIT]



Please note, this does not indicate the sprite has to have the power it's assisting, it just can do it. Rating 6's might be a bit overkill as mentioned, but a rating 4 here seems reasonable to have registered pretty heavily for things just like this. Now add that to...


Assuming a 5 res and a 5 software skill out of the gates for a BP char expecting to do this, and probably a 6/4 for a karmagen, we'll average 3 dice on the threading bonus. Quick register of a new sprite to maintain it for you and you've got +7 to your stealth, for practically nothing.

All of this happens in 2 IP's too. Complex to summon up the new sprite, Free action to call the registered one in. next action thread your stealth, and hand the sustain to it over to the non-registered while your registered sits on your stealth directly. No, it won't last forever, but a combat turn is forever in the matrix... and you can always whistle up another one before the first one is over. He can even do this in his own bionode before hand (except for handing over the sustaining, because of the combat turn*force/task limit) if he wanted. If the TM is merely doing overwatch, he could even just sustain it himself if he liked and hand it off only when he had to do something specific. -2 dice is NOT a big deal to a Techno, usually.

This means your local IC in the system, and when the firewall checks while you hack in, are looking at a base target of 13 to find the Techno. 13. If he doesn't glitch, he isn't getting seen unless your software is out of this world.

Note, the breaking point for a Techno is the ability to intelligently use his sprites. There are other things, like the unhackable bio-node, that can be frustruating, but nothing is game breaking except for using the sprites (Couldn't they call 'em ghosts or something? spirits/sprites, too easy to swap), even at reasonable 3/4 levels, intelligently. Another two supporting his exploit until he gets in (could even use the combat ones he's registered while he exploits from his own bionode to get in) opens up a world of hurt on the exploit side of things, too, simultaneously.

Next:

That's a hell of a skill, and it's right out of the box. Duplicatable by hackers, to a point, with ergonomic programs and a maxxed out commlink. But only to a point. Then again, hackers don't pay karma for their programs. Might be a fair trade.


Overpowering? No, just snow on the mountain.

Hackers worms and Agents:
An agent has to break in just like the hacker, and subject to the same issues as above. Now, the hacker can get in and drop him off behind him, sure. And leave a nice pretty (and hopefully, well spoofed) accessID behind. Malware in general is expensive, at best, and is incredibly long to code something that's not 'out of the box', if you need it to do something specific rather then a worm someone else built (and is being distributed, thus degrading), and that's if you can get them at a high enough rating to be reasonable:

Worm (Rating x 5)F Rating x 2,000¥ Rating x 5,000¥

Rating 6 is a 30F availability, costing 30k. [EDIT] This is not meant for a high end system. This is not meant for your average runner to get his hands on, that's got higher availability then some combat vehicles... not sure what my brain thought that sentence was going to mean to anyone but me...[/EDIT]

And, well, unless you're programming it yourself, your street samurai can buy and send a worm on its way for all the effort it takes, you don't need the hacker there. As to programming it:

Virus Rating x 4 3 months
Metamorphic Engine +6 +1 month

So, without the virus having a metamorphic engine (which seems pointless), For a rating 6 worm you need 24 hits in your threshhold with 3 months/test intervals, and that's doing, reasonably, nothing else. 30 if you want to make it self-regulating and 4 months per test instead of 3. So if you can't find it, you gotta build it. See you in 2-3 years.

The techno can have an army of sprites registered in a week, with some sleep between attempts, at worst. The hacker can have programmed 1 worm... in a few years... or had the street sam buy the same thing he could and deploy it the same way.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing any form of equality here, perhaps you can help me out?

the best solution would probably be to consider a TM a hacker with a implant comlink, complete with sim module. So yes, they can see AR just fine (at least as good as anyone using trodes, implant comlink or datajack with a sim module).

if by hotsim damage you mean black hammer, then i would say no. tho given that a TM uses the normal damage track, rather then a special matrix damage track, that may not mean much as even a attack program ends up doing stun.

and i fear not, as even SR4a is vague on the TM specifics in relation to AR use. Maybe because a TM is slow (meat speed only) in AR, unless they grab a set of echos from unwired that grant them the equivalent of wired reflexes.

I'll keep that in mind, Tuesday.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I think that you missed the point I was making with the Sprites... When a sprite enters a system, if they do not have the Stealth CF, then THEY cannot be stealthy, and will generally set off every alarm out there upon system access... this is a problem if the Technomancer is trying to be stealthy, as the Sprites have to be with the Technomancer in teh system that they are aiding him in... sucks to be them at that point.

Continuous "Whistling Up" of Sprites eats actions... this isz generally a bad thing when you are actively penetrating a system... lost passes result in more time in the system... My Hacker has 3 passes in AR and takles absolutely NO Damage from Attacks by Programs or Persona... You cannot really say the same for the Technomancer now can you? And lets not remember that a Technomancer can only have as many sprites as his Charisma... so generally not a boatload there...

And lets not forget that the Technomancer actually ahs to Hack the node he wants to enter in... lets see... Find the Node (you are doing this remotely right?)... Decrypt the Node, Perform a MAtrix Perception Check to see if the Node has a DataBomb attached to it, Defuse the Databomb (Hope that it does not just come right back up) and then Actually HACK the node for the Access Rights... Plenty of things in that scenario can go wrong, and this could be just a standard "Secure" node... Heaven help you (Hackers and Technomancers) if it is a Ultra High-Security Node... And lets not forget that the Technomancer rolls an OPPOSED TEST for that Stealth... I have seen 20 Dice produce only a single hit before (Rare, but it happens)... Dice are oftentimes capricious.

As for Response Hits due to Program overload... I would call that an even deal... Hackers Buy, and Technomancers spend KArma, all other things wash in teh Response category (It is very easy, as you said, to have a fairly high program load afterall, so it is really not that much of a limitation for the Hacker)

Yes, Worms, and Viruses (Especially with Metamorphic Engines) are expensive, but a Technomancer cannot use them at all unless he is acting like the Hacker (He has to actually use real programs, what a novelty). He cannot CF them, nor can he thread them... They are expensive for a reason, but they are not impossible to acquire... it is just time and money. Hell, you can even program your own, if that will fit within the perview of the game. Technomancers get Sprites instead...

And Sprites... I would hardly call 7 Sprites an Army (Though I think that you might be able to start as high as a 10? Still, hardly an army). The Hacker, on the other hand, is only limited in his pocketbook... 100 Agents at Rating 3...No Problem... just a simple 300,000 Nuyen (Hacked, only 30,000 Nuyen, and good for a month or two)... Technomancer can only WISH they could have as many Sprites...

By the Way, it does not take Years to Program a Worm... A Worm is essentially a Malware Agent... As such, it is Threshold (Rating x 3) and a 3 Month Interval... which you can reduce to 6 Weeks with a Programming Environmewnt, and then to 3 weeks with a Rush Job... So, 1 Roll each 3 weeks... I created mine in about 12 Weeks without to much difficulty (And that was a Rating 6 with Options; Gotta do something with the Downtime while hiding out)... so no, definitely not years.

Hackers are definitely on par with Technomancers. htey are both pretty damn versatile in the Matrix, but the Technomancer has drawbacks (That WHole Living Persona thing just really sucks, regardless if his Bionode cannot be hacked.

I probably did not answer your questions as well as I could, but it is getting a bit late...

Keep the Faith

The hacking rules are screwed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Seriously, the Dev's don't even understand there own ruleset, so it's not surprising that no-one else can either.

Also I love that the superuser account can make changes it cannot undo. 'Damn, johnny the sysadmin left the company, but set his account to 'unable to be deleted' and 'unabled to be changed' so he has a back door FOREVER'

Whatever makes the game work, yo.