First a little history;

I'm a new player, still learning the ropes and rules of shadowrun 4a with only bout 8 hours of total play time. I'm starting up with another group this thursday whom i believe have plenty of experience with the game. The story directly from the mouth of the gm;

Players will be part of a Doc Wagon Crisis Response Team, responding to emergencies in and around the downtown area.

Starting BP is the standard 400, with 50 additional karma and a special PACK. Availability for gear is 12 or less. I allow the other character gen methods as well and welcome any questions you have on setting and back story.

Additional karma is available before or during game for any work you want to do to enrich your characters or the setting. Various amounts are available for fiction, props and artwork as well as detailed contacts and villains.

Feel free to use any character generation method you like though.

I go by the standard rules for stacking armor.


The character i thought to play will be a troll brawler made just for drawing attention away from the rest of the team. The background is still in the works but to the effect of; An ex-urban brawler who had a promising future in the sport was caught by a certain underground organization (not decided yet) that he was betting on his own games and throwing them. Forced into early retirement and labeled a has been sports figure, now he is working security for a Doc Wagon crew. Now the story explains some of the negative qualities, such as day job, big regret, and SINer. The rest is for flavor. The character was made in Draegann's chargen so forgive me if it doesn't add up, i think i did it right.

Attributes
Body: 9 (11) (enhance articulation+suprathyroid gland)
Agility: 4 (7) (enhance articulation+suprathyroid gland+muscle toner1)
Reaction: 4 (9) (enhance articulation+suprathyroid gland+improv reflexes)
Strength: 8 (11) (enhance articulation+suprathyroid gland+muscle augmentation)
Charisma: 1
Intuition: 4
Logic: 2
Willpower: 2

Edge: 1
Magic: 6 (5)
Initiative: 13
Essence: 5.05

Active Skills
Dodge : 3
First Aid : 2
Pilot Ground Craft : 1
Throwing Weapons (Lobbed) : 2 (4)
Perception : 2
Blades : 6 (still debated)

Positive Qualities
Adrenaline Surge (guarantee first attack, make up the distance since i'm melee)
Restricted Gear (used to get suprathyroid gland)
Type O System

Negative Qualities
SINner
Big Regret
Day Job 3
Bad Luck
Sensitive System
Astral Beacon

Biowares
Enhanced Articulation
Platelet Factories
Gecko Hands
Trauma Damper
Suprathyroid Gland
Muscle Augmentation 1
Muscle Toner 1

Adept Powers
Improved Reflexes (level 3)

Armors
Riot Control Armor 6/9
Riot Control Helmet 1/2
Shock Frills (comes standard)
Form-Fitting Body Armor Full-Body Suit 6/2
Fire Resistance (Rating 3) (comes standard)
Nonconductivity (Rating 6)
PPP-System Forearm Guards 0/1
PPP-System Vitals Protector 1/1
PPP-System Shin Guards 0/1
PPP-System Leg and Arm Casings 0/2

Total armor 14/18 (my encumbrance limit would be 18/18, i'm working on getting it closer to 18/18)


the rest of gear is misc, medkits, nades etc



Final notes;
The weapon i'll be using is undecided yet. I'm really wanting to use a telescopic spear (Prince Nuada) if i can get the gm to allow it to be a vibro blade end cause that'll be str/2+4 damage with 2 reach. However, i really like the idea of dual welding a weapon for the two weapon style maneuver, or even something like a whip/kusarigama for the ability to grapple at a distance (reach 2+1 from troll racial). In which case i'll probably go with 2 large parking meters (as clubs). The throwing weapon spec is for leveling the playing field. I'll have a multitude of grenades that will be used to scatter, kill, main or disorient the enemy while i move to melee range. I really like the idea of wired reflexes but don't want to pay that cost so i went with improve reflex adept power. The total bp on this character as it stands is 404. The negative quality i choose to finish with will depend on the gm, whether he'll let me use the 50 karma to purchase maneuvers or not. I know enhance articulation doesn't really add to the physical stats, just the pools linked to a physical stat, but i found it easier to just add them in the () so i don't forget to add them to the dice pool. So what do you guys think?

You're a troll and supposed to grab attention.....weelllll time for Pink Mohawk.
Get exotic weapon (park bench) and carry one around with you. I would think it should have reach 2. Wear a stop-sign on your chest and pcik up some gymnastics. Nothing grabs my attention like a troll carrying a park bench while doing cartwheels towards me.

You should also come up with a snappy catchphrase, like "Just the tip baby, I promise." or something.

A 454 engine block attached to a heavy chain, which is in turn attached to the hydraulic arm of an engine jack. The bestest exotic weapon (Automotive Morningstar) I've ever had the occasion to use.

There are days I miss my Sioux Troll physad, Running Gag.

If you are using the Arsenal book, replace your Blades skill with Unarmed Combat, and buy the Karate specialization. You'll want to focus on Full Defense Parry, and take the Throw and Sweep maneuvers. What you can then do is rush in, knock someone on their ass (Shock Frills make sure they stay down), and when the next person attacks you, use your interrupt action to go full parry and with the extra reach a troll gets, you'll likely always win. You'll be able to use Throw (after Shock Frills) to throw the second person into the third person, so you'll have taken out 3 peeps before your second pass (which gets used up in the interrupt action). It's even better if you happen to be on a rooftop or something, because you can throw people off the edge. A pink mohawk also helps for intimidation purposes.

I considered going unarmed but the problems i was having with it was the reach, all the cool adept powers i don't/can't have, and the damage. This is from my lack of experience so i'm not even sure that melee would be bad as a choice. I mean if i go unarmed i can eventually go with cool adept powers after i spend a lot of karma, right? As unarmed i was thinking of using hardliner gloves, but making them by dipping em in concrete, or making brass knuckles out of police push bumpers.

You've got 50 BP of positive qualities, when at char-gen you're restricted to 35. One thing I noticed.
-DrZaius

Want to help, but I'm going to need more info. What books are you allowed? Also, what are the roles/abilities/loadouts/etc of the rest of the team. You seem to have cut yourself a pretty exclusive niche and I want to know if it makes sense for you to diversify more.
Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, your goal is to be the big bad bullet sponge right?

Can you elaborate what he means by this?

Strength 11? Damage is [1/2(STR)+net hits]S, plus the independent damage of 6S vs 1/2 Impact Armor for the shock frills. The 1 reach gives you an extra die to roll, so you'd be rolling 14 dice to attack. Average 6.66 hits, which is pretty rough for anyone to handle. You roll 16 dice when on full defense, for an average of 7.33 hits, and again the damage from your punk, plus the shock frills, and also the falling damage for the distance you throw them. I think you'll find yourself pleasantly surprised at the amount of kickass you dish out.

I'm guessing access to all the books, at least i have em all and from what i understand by the group, they have been playing awhile and should have all of them as well. As for the rest of the team, I think we have a driver, a solid doc, a hacker and a fighter so i'm free to play whatever i like, so says the gm. Yes, my goal is to be a bullet sponge, or at least the person to grab all the attention away from the client and the rest of the team. That's why i want to go melee and why i'm using nades (smoke, tear gas, etc). I was thinking of adding a shield to help with that as well.

The issue i had come across with my build and the gm was that he (the gm) didn't want me to be completely invulnerable cause he bases the level of difficulty on how much the team can take. I could walk around with 20+ armor, orthoskin, etc but then it wouldn't be fair for the hacker or doc when the gm starts throwing missiles around. He had suggested i go with combat sense rather than mystic armor (both of which i dropped anyway).

The pack he was referring to was a bad of goodies given to us my the company, so we'll have commlinks and stuff needed by doc wagon employees. I'm not 100% sure what's in it yet though.

thanks, i didn't even know bout that. I'll have to ask my gm cause i really really really want those positive qualities.

You said optimise. The words. They have been spoken.


Wootness. You should use karmagen.


Go get them.


Attributes

Skills


Qualities


Augmentations, mundane and otherwise


(Nice forum feature detected, quote tags are checked now. Keep up the good work!)

Full defense is reaction+weapon skill x2? or reaction+weapon skill+dodge? or reaction +weapon skill+gym(if i had it)?

And ya, 11 str is odd but it's how the bioware added up. I think i round up so i'll do 11/2=5.5 rounded up to 6, correct? So with hardliner it'll be 11/2+1=7 or shock glove's flat 5s (frills 6s). All added to net hits. On paper is doesn't sound bad at all. Range is what scares me, i don't want some random corp guard kiting me around a parking lot.

Where can i find info on his method?

Runners Companion. According to the German initial print you should calculate attributes as new rating*5, and racial karma = racial bp.

Ok, the Runners Companion book is still under question. I asked the gm via email if the book is allowed since it adds metatype variants and i have not gotten a response yet. So i'm gonna go ahead and say no still otherwise.


What's better, Muscle augmentation or Muscle toner for this character? Cause i think i'll drop one of em and go with Sythcartium 3.

Muscle toner is better for pretty much any build. Muscle toners are one of the best pieces of 'ware in the game due to the wide variety of stuff that is governed by agility-- it covers virtually every combat skill and several Physical skills as well, like Gymnastics and Infiltration. Strength is really more of a niche attribute for boosting damage values in melee, which, frankly, isn't all that important if you don't have the Agility to connect with your hits in the first place.

I also tend to agree with the guys who suggested Unarmed over Blades. It's a much better defense against Subdual fighters and unless things have REALLY gone south you'll never be without your hands. It's just a better all-around last resort option.

And for the record, Urban Brawl is actually fought with guns, not fists, for the most part. I mean, I guess you could try beating up the other team's "blaster" with your bare hands, if you want, but considering they're allowed the use of an LMG, it's not really the best plan.

For range defense, would i want athletics or dodge? Specially with my stats and Sythcartium 3?

I'd go with Athletics/Gymnastics, since you also plan on having melee skills. Here's a quick primer.

Advantages for Dodge:
+One stop shopping: Works for avoiding ramming attacks, gunfire and melee.
+Can be specialized for melee or ranged, so again, it's great for dabblers.

Drawbacks for Dodge:
-Obviously quite useless outside of combat.
-Unlike Unarmed, Dodge cannot help you break out of a Subdual attempt once an initial hit has already been scored. Not that big of a deal though, particularly for a big ol' troll-- it'll very likely take another troll to keep you pinned regardless.

Advantages for Gymnastics:
+Applies to a wide range of situations like balance and breakfalls, which is important because you're a shadowrunner. You never know when the GM might decide to see if the combat characters can handle a precarious shootout on a rooftop or the walkways of a good ol' Hollywood Smoke and Fire factory.
+Can be boosted by Synthacardium, Enhanced Articulation and the Improved Ability Power, which is cheaper than the Improved Combat Ability Power.

Drawbacks for Gymnastics:
-Can only apply dice for defending against one type of attack (melee or ranged) at a time, so a melee skill is recommended vs. combined arms.
-There is no by-the-RAW Gymnastics Dodge specialization.
-By the RAW, avoiding a ramming attack is a Dodge+Reaction test, with no mention of Full Defense or Reaction, so you'll be worse at not getting run over unless your GM decides otherwise.
-Again, only Unarmed Combat adds dice to breaking a Subdual hold, so Gymnastics is no better than Dodge in that regard.

\

Edit: Sorry. Didn't see the bit about the RC while making my post. Sorry.

Indeed they have. Nice advice. Pretty sure I can add to it.

1) On your backstory: Why not use your 'i awakened as an adept' as an excuse to get kicked out of a competitive league? I'm sure there are unaugmented-people-only categories - and having the media/public think you were kicked out for 'cheating' by being an adept would ruin your popularity in other circles, letting the character ultimately end up with docwagon.

2) Karmagen. Do it. Seconding ryu - you'll get a much better result. (for my math, I'm assuming the most Balanced version of karmagen: 4a costs and the german errata inclusion of race cost = bpcost in karma)

Race: Ditch troll, go Fomori(RC). Its only a 5bp point difference, you lose 1 armor, but gain arcane arrestor, a free point of body, and don't have the Ugly problem so bad - it makes sense for a famous fighter type to be photogenetic, too.

Attributes:
Odd strength #. Good. Melee damage rounds up.
Enhanced articulation doesn't add to stats - see below.
Charisma 1: you're using karmagen. Improve this; its cheap and surprisingly important.
Willpower 2: Ditto. Stun damage can be wicked - load up your boxes as much as you can.
Edge 1: again. low-stats in karmagen are cheap. I'm sure you can find 25 karma to raise it to 3.

Qualities: There's room for improvement here.
Type-O gives up WAY to much in opportunity costs. If you trim your bioware, take Biocompatability(augmentation) for bioware, and upgrade to alphaware, you should still only have a point of loss.
SURGE: I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up. There's a bunch of good stuff here.
Martial arts: Missing a ton of good stuff here. Krav maga at a minimum, potentially to +3 dv on unarmed attacks, even some dodge benefits. Maneuvers to hit people back, or repeatedly.
Adrenaline surge: Overpriced. 15BP? No thanks. Ditch it, use the points to improve your basic initiative and Edge( you can always spend one to go first).
Fame(rc): You have a day job of 3. You're a former urban brawl player. Do you like nuyen? Get fame 1 at least.

Adept powers:
Adept Improved Reflexes only costs 4 points (4a change). You have one point left. You are conspiciously missing killing hands. Consider the following:
Killing Hands: 0.5 pp. Hits spirits, choice of stun or physical damage.
Elemental strike, for AP half on most elements. 0.5PP.
0.5: Adept counterstrike. Defensive dicepool becomes offensive dice pool. Amazing when combined with some martial arts maneuvers.
Weapon Foci: Why do you not have one. They are great: Fix it. Either get a weapon of some sort, or hardliner gloves.
Critical and/or Penetrating strike: One adds to DV, one to AP. DV is better, but both together are great - its not hard to punch as hard as an assault cannon, and if thats not enough incentive to go unarmed adept, i don't know what is.
Alternatively: get another point of essence loss.

Biowares:
Enhanced Articulation. Ditch it. Doesn't help combat skills - UNLESS you're getting gymnastic dodge. In that case, get a Synthcardium instead. This bioware is a trap - it doesn't work like you think it does, sadly. (It adds to physical skills linked to physical attributes. Dodge, unarmed, etc are combat skills linked to physical attributes).
Gecko hands: Useless. Gecko grip gloves are SO much better, don't leave fingerprints everywhere, and let you wear gloves.
Superthyroid: Its good. But it costs .75(down to .325 w/type o) essence. Which is ...quite a lot. +1 body/agi/str/react
Trauma+platelet: Good.
Muscle aug/toner: Good. Ditch gecko/articulation, bump to rating 2.
Geneware: It doesn't have grades, so the only way to get essence discounts is via Biocompatability(geneware counts as bioware). Reakt adds +2 dice to your defense tests, but not other reaction tests. Free defense dice synch nicely with adept counterstrike.

Cyberware: There, i said it. Yes, you want some ware. Specifically, you're a Bioware-adept, which means cyberware is half-off. You wanted optimization: here you go.
Alphaware Cyberhand, bulk mod 2, and up to 3 second hand nanohives. Total essence cost: 80% of .25, halved, is 0.1. Tack on a six-dose auto-injector for free, cause it has no capacity cost. You can now sustain up to six nanoware systems from Augmentation: Get universal Nantidotes and O-cell 9's as soon as you can. Nanosymbiotes are good, and oxyrush is never bad. There are other options, but they're more for brainiacs - you can also get other things, like a commlink or datajack in your hand's six capacity.

Skills:
You Need More. A lot more. Ryu nailed this one: Fix it.
Specialize everything: Its 2 points in karmagen. If its not grouped, specialize it.
Get pistols: Warhawks are good.
Get automatics: Machine pistols w/ stick and shocks rock everything, including spirits, and are concealable. Plus you can always bust out an assault rifle.
Ignore longarms: Shotguns and sniper rifles? No thanks.
Dodge needs a specialty. I suggest ranged.
Gymnastics: Consider the usefulness of gymnastic dodging. Yes, you can only use it on a full defense, but its rather easy to improve its dicepool(synthcardium, articulation, some martial arts, anything with adds to physlinked skills)
Throwing: Its good, and its damage is based around your melee attribute: strength. Pump it up, and get contacts with Vision Mag to make use of it.
Unarmed: Why do you not have it? Its great. Get it at 1, minimum. Defaulting sucks.
Clubs: Improvised Specialty. Arsenal has a great list of improvised melee weapons. Trollstrength lets you pick up anything blunt, and hit people with it. Blunt objects(and pistolwhips) use clubs. So get it.
Electronics 1: Its ten points. Do you like computers? Do you like AR bonuses? Its useful.



Armor:
Chemical seal your FFBA fullsuit and the riot armor, and nonconductivity everything - stick and shocks will kick your ass, so be ready for it. So will narcojet.
Gear: Get guns, and melee harden them.
Lifestyle: You don't have one, and the streets suck. To bad for you chummer - but since you're working for docwagon, you can use the advanced lifestyle rules in the RC to knock 3 points off your lifestyle if you live in one of their apartments.

Special note: Two weapon fighting is great, and the two-weapon maneuver(the one that lets you full offense and defense at the same time) is very useful - especially with other maneuvers, like riposte and finishing move.

wow, sounds like gymnastics is best for melee characters... So trading dodge in for athletics would help not just in avoiding range damage but in helping me close the gap with added running and jumping?

Oh, i am a bit late for this. But THIS "Dude" really reminds me of something i built a while ago. But instead of "being forced " into retirement he got his arms mangled by the mob. And since then got mechanical murder-arms and ran around killing mafiosi. But the build itself seems very similar. Here, i will copy it into that spoiler:



What i can just advise to: Charisma 1? Really.... Other than edge or magic i don't like characters with a 1 somewhere. You are an adult professional in a high-stress job. (Remember Composure is Cha + Will) If you can't make your Fear/Stay calm rolls you are of no use for a team. Other than that (and the things others pointed out): Rock on.

P.S. I also like dodge more than Gymnastics. (And as a GM i take that away whenever i can - no space, hard terrain etc.) Also a M-B-W boosts dodge. And i like Move-by-Wire.

Ok, i'm trying to remake the character using the karma method instead, but i'm at a lost. I'll keep reading but i'm not understanding it too well. That's why i like using the draegann's chargen, it adds up the karma used as well but i'm beginning to question the accuracy. I'm spending 325 karma on stats but it says it equals 280 on bp. That's not half of bp or karma (400/750 respectively).

First i went unarmed, dropped type o quality. Added killing hands and elemental strike (any suggestion on which element?).

I'd really like to keep improv reflexes due to the +3 initiative passes, just not sure keeping it over wired reflexes is worth it. I mean i'm limited to avail 12 or lower less i go with restricted gear, wired reflex is expensive, i mean if 1 karma is worth 2500 nuyen, the wired reflexes cost 80 karma (alpha, to match the ess cost with improv reflexes). I'm beginning to think having 3 to 1 attack is over rated, or am i wrong? On paper 3 to 1 is nice.

Dodge is also used for Riggers(common rolls for riggers)

But, yeah, pretty much. There's also a bit more throught to it - it basically boils down to 'it depends what you're defending against'.

There's a difference between Full Defense and what i'm calling Normal defense.
For Normal Ranged, you get plain reaction. Thats right - you get attacked with Agi+skill+smartlink, and only get your attribute to defend yourself. Thats why guns are so deadly.
For Normal Melee, you get Reaction, can either Parry(weaponskill), Block(unarmed combat), or dodge(Dodge skill). And thats before you're spending any actions on full defense - defending against melee IS easier, because you always include some sort of skill on the defens test, and not just reaction.

And then there's Full Defense, which can be added to any of those by spending a complex action.
There's Full Dodge(melee or ranged) - which adds dodge again. So you could potentially avoid a melee attack with reaction plus twice dodge.
Gymnastics Dodge(melee or ranged). Gymdodge adds your full Gymnastics dice pool to the defense test.
And Full Parry(melee only). Full Parry is worded funny(in 4a 160). it says Full Parry roll (melee combat x 2) + reaction against melee, which is a little at odds with the Melee Combat Summary on 157. When you think about it - full parry lets you add a melee skill(unarmed or weapon) to the defense pool again.

So. Gymdodge is great. You -need- to be on full defense to use it - but at the same time, being able to drop (gymnastics 6 + adept improved gymnastics3+synthcardium 3) 12 dice on any defense test at the drop of a hait is both fairly easy, and good.

That being said.... mix-and-matching regular skills are good too. Any time you get two skills on a test, you have the potential to claim specialties from both skills, and four free dice isn't bad at all. Lets say you're attacked in melee, and defende with a Block(Unarmed, Parrying +2) and a Full Dodge(dodge, melee +2). Then you're not just defending with stat+skill+skill, but two more specialties.
You can also do the same thing with dissimiliar weapons - a club and a knife, for example. Unarmed and clubs is a good combo - cuz guns, while improvised melee weapons .... use the club skill.

Now that we understand the system, its not too hard to stack our odds. Martial art styles in arsenal are a great way to do this. Some can add to blocks, parries, melee dodges, full dodges, or gymdodges.
The Two-Weapon Style maneuver is great, because it lets a person with two weapons only attack with one, and use a Full Defense with the other without using an action for the defense. The offhand penalty can be dealt with through ambidexterity, or off hand training.
Adept Counterstrike triggers when you block or parry successfully, your net hits go to your attack pool.(some restrictions, such as an attack having to be your next action to claim the bonus, see street magic for details). Its great, because it turns your defensive dice pool into an offensive one.
Riposte, a martial arts maneuver, is especially potent with adept counterstrike. When you block or parry, you can take an immediate, interrupt-action attack(so it uses your next action, much like full defense can) to hit your attacker back.
The Macro echo(unwired) deserves a special mention for riggers, because it lets them, essentially, offhand a matrix complex action at -2 while they take a real complex action. They could concievably fire a weapon and go on full defense at the same time.

Hope that helps!

Could you link me to Draegann's chargen? Its entire possible its using the non-errata'd, unbalanced, and overpowered costs.

The basic idea for karmagen is that you.... well, you know how you BP-gen, then get to use your earned karma to improve your character?
Karmagen.... lets you build the whole thing using karma, from scratch. The reason I, personally, like karmagen is because the costs scale - you pay for exactly what you get. If you' want to play a dude with average stats, it costs very little, because you have low stats.

Its very probably the reason you feel the stats are off, is because, well, have a little history lesson.
in 4th, raising an attribute costed new rating times 3 karma. To get Body 4, you'd need 12. To get 5, you'd need 15. To get 5 from 3, you'd need 12+15=27.
Then along came the idea for 4th anniversary, which included a change to increase the cost of raising your attributes from Ratingx3 to Ratingx5. To re-use the body example, it would be 20 for 4, 25 for 5, and 45 for body4+5.
The problem is, during this time, the RC was already being made, and 750-karma allotment was balanced for Rx5, but someone actually forgot to include it in the printing. And catalyst sucks, so there hasn't exactly been errata for it.

To compare: Raising a stat from 1->5 in BP gen is pretty easy. It costs 40 points, or 1/10th of your total 400BP.
In Stock karmagen(rx3), raising a stat from 1->5 is very very cheap: 6+9+12+15= 42 karma, or 0.056 of your total 750.
In Balanced karmagen(rx5), raising a stat from 1->5 is almost as expensive: 10+15+20+25=70 karma, or 0.0933 of your total 750.

On the other hand, if we go to 6, karmagen becomes more expensive.
BPgen, if you take a stat from 5->6, and aren't maxing it out (such as a dwarf buying WP, or an elf buying charisma), then it costs 50 points, or .125 of your 400 allowed.
For comparison, if it IS maxing it out(which i, personally, think is a stupid game mechanic), then it costs 65BP, or .1625 of your total, but thats more due to maxing-out-cost, than the system itself.
If you Balanced karmagen a stat to 6, it costs 100 karma(30 more), or 0.1333 of your total. This means that metatypes with high stat caps pay out the nose if they want to get near above-human stat levels. (if a troll wants Str 10, they pay 40 to be a troll, gets 5 free, and pays 200 to raise it to ten)
On the other hand, the Unbalanced karmagen, taking a stat to 6(18 more) costs 0.08 of your 750 allotment.

So yeah. If you're using the Stupid Karmagen, your stats are going to cost about half of what the do in BP-gen, and thats stupidly broken. If you incorporate the 4a costs, then you actually get a decent alternative to build-points.

Yeah, Gymnastics will help you clear gaps easier and Running will give you more dice to sprint with, but keep in mind that introducing a sprint into your movement eats up a Simple Action. That's pretty manageable when you have 3-4 passes, but if you go any lower you'll might start having a hard time sprinting AND "refreshing" Full Defense while still having the time to knock the stuffing out of your target once you get there.

You may want to consider skipping the entire group though, at least with a buffed out troll. A Strength & Body 10 troll is fit enough to default to 9 dice on a Climbing, Running and Swimming tests, even before you add in the Synthacardium you're thinking of taking. From a metagaming standpoint, taking the Group discount to get dice in 4 skills cheaply feels pretty dang nice, but in practice your character will already be pretty dang competent even without them. Getting even better at it may not do as much for you in-game as investing elsewhere might.