Hello,

are weapons modified by Arsenal rules avaliable to player at character creation ?

If so, what are their price and avaliability ? the tables only indicate the cost and avaliability of the ressources to make them.

Sure, if the GM is allowing them (as is true of all the optional rules). They have their own Availabilities, and a limit of 6 slots without GM permission. Having them installed is considered a freebie in the same way implants and other gear mods are handled during character creation, especially since rules for paying someone else to do things is sorely lacking in the rules.

But, again, it's always up to the GM. If they're simply allowing the use of Arsenal with no mention of disallowing parts of it, then yes, by the rules you're free to do so. The GM is also free to veto any particular combination after you're done, too. Just because the rules allow for something, that doesn't mean the GM has to.

What bother me is that there is no real avaliability for the modded weapon, just for the ressource to do so.

No player could start with a HV weapon but every player could start with a HV modified weapon...

As a GM I hate to tell player "You cant do what is written in the book because I told you So", I'd rather said "You cant do what is written in the book because you misread rules X page Z".

Right now I didn't allow modification because :
-1- There is no price listed for modified weapon.
-2- There is no avaliability listed for modified weapon.
-3- Modification aren't listed in what a player could buy as starting gear, accessories are listed.
-4- Nowhere in the Arsenal nor the modification rules is it mentionned you can do it at character generation nor at what cost.
-5- Authorising it would feel just like authorising magician to bind spirits for free before game start. And BC nuyens doenst value the same that in game nuyen.

You buy the mods (they have a price an availbility) and add some fee for the one who makes the mod (xNuyen * Theshold ist the most simble methode), if you cannot do it yourself.

cya
Tycho

The way I see it it's like cyber- / bioware. Ingame you would have to pay for the surgery in addition to the ware, but at start you get that free as part of your background.

In the same vein you can start with modified weapons without paying the cost for the actual work, just the materials.

As Scratch said you just pay the price it says at the mod list and your gun has that mod, just like you just buy an implant at chargen and you have it with out having to pay for installation for which there actually are prices listed Augmentation(IIRC).

No, it is clearly stated, that the price of ware includes the costs for the surgery. For Weapon Mods it is exactly the opposite, the prise is only the material cost without the procedure.

cya
Tycho

Could you please provide a rules quote, becouse i couldn't find that with a quick search.

"Cost: The cost for acquiring the necessary materials.
Availability: The availability of the necessary materials."


"The difference between
the two of them is that accessories can be installed without requiring
extensive mechanical knowledge, while modifi cations
require an application of the modifi cation rules mentioned at
the beginning of this chapter."

"MATERIALS AND TOOLS
Th e materials necessary to do the job are represented by
the cost and availability values of the modifi cation, as outlined
in the modifi cation description. To acquire the materials, the
character has to buy them as he would buy any other item, following
all the necessary steps (pp. 302–303, SR4).
In order to perform the modification, a character also
needs the relevant tools (pp. 322–323, SR4)."

"THE PLAN
The cost of the plans is up to the gamemaster, but certain
open source or pirated plans might be found for free if the
character looks in the right place. A character can also try to get
a plan with good old-fashioned legwork (see Swag, p. 280, SR4).
Characters can throw some money around to speed up the plan
acquisition, using the same rules as given under the Availability
Test (p. 302, SR4)."

That's all the relevant quotes I found. So definitely NOT A FREEBEE, and definitely not just the cost of the material indicated in the tables.

Could you please read what part of your post i quoted.

That is the first thing I quoted, the legend from the table you are refering.

Note this is not a price that is indicated but a Cost, and the cost is said to be for the material. You also need a plan, and a tools to get the amelioration.

You mean like the fact that there is a listed BP cost for bound spirits?

IIRC it's like 1 BP per point of force plus 1 BP per task. Or Force x Tasks? I'm AFB, but I know its in there.

Each different modification has an Availability. In our games we allow modified guns at the start as long as each mod is within the Availability limit.

It is a freebie... during character creation. Again, just like implants and other similar mods. The other rules you cited were in-game rules, much like the surgery rules for getting implants installed.

If you don't like them, just say no in your games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
It seems you still didn't at all read what part of your post i quoted when i asked for rule quote.
Please read the text inside the quote area slowly and carefully and then try to do as i asked. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You were quoting Tycho, not IKerensky.

Damm your right, Mea Culpa IKerensky.
I think i need coffee or maybe that think draco drinks that name he cant remember.

There would be the lack of surgery cost and the description of Cyberware on pg. 338 of The Precious. "Bodyshops offering minor procedures..." would suggest that the cost is for having something installed including the cost of the implant itself. Not a strong argument, I am afraid.

Actually it is 1 (One) BP for each Service Owed by the Spirit, and Their Force is equal to the Magician's Magic Rating. You can have no more services than your Charisma.

Keep the Faith

Ah, there we go. Still, point made. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

I am sorry but as I say there is no price nor avaliability listed for the built in modification, thoses are for the ressources to build it.

A very simple example from arsenal :

ARES HVAR 11F 2400 nu

High velocity mode 8R weapon costx2


If 8R was the avaliability of the modification it would mean you are prohibited from having a HVAR but could have a HV colt M223 or HV SMG. Wich make no sense AND ARE NOT WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE RULES !!!

The Terminology I quote indicate that the Avaliabilty and Cost are for the ressource NOT FOR the modification. It is evident than some of the modification are F rating or very larger avaliability than the ressource to make them.

You can House Rules that they are free to get at character creation, entirely discounting the actual price to build them (wich is a lot more than just the component) but that would be a house rule because there is no way to acquire thoses things at character creation in the rules. Neither is rules to simply buy a modificed weapon from a store.

If it cost : weapon + tools + plan + material + time to create the modified weapon it cant cost weapon + material to buy it from a store. That's simply stupid.

Chill out. Bold, caps, and underlines are not cruise control for "win."

It's a game. Trying to use the reasoning of "it makes no sense, thus it must not BE!!!" is incorrect, because it presumes the game designers are infallible, and don't make mistakes.

If characters were not intended to have modded weapons at character creation, it would in all likelihood say so in the rules somewhere. Besides, this is dumpshock. If such a blatant "oops" occurred, one of the writers or developers would have probably mentioned it by now.

But your not buying it from a store, thats not what the chargen recources reprecent, it's just the combined nyuen value that your gear is worth.
Chargen rescources are a compöetdöy differnet think then ingame nuyen.

Getting the mod for your gun with the listed prices in chargen is no different then:
*Characters getting implants with out having to pay for the surgery.
*Mages getting spell without having to buy a formulae
*Mages getting bound spirits without having to pay for summoning materials

Bold and underline are just to highlight the main point of a post a bit too lengthy.

Character creation rules doesnt mention weapons nor vehicules modification in the gear that can be buyed. Of course they are after the arsenal.

To build the modification the character are supposed to be in possession of the skills and tools, that is also part of the cost of the modification. If a character have the required skills and tools I have no problem with him starting with modified weaponnary, he pay fully for them.

And about rules : there is nowhere in the SR4, SR4A nor Arsenal where is the price and avaliability of a modified weapon, period. The rules in the Arsenal are for construction of the modification from scratch and REQUIRES the skills, tools and test. This is repeated several times into the modification chapter and before the list of the modification.

I would allow player to start with modified gear if there was a price for them, wich is not there. Something is missing from the rules, period. SR4A should have had amelioration mentionned, or the Arsenal should have contained the price and avaliability of the amelioration, wich is not there.

I am sorry if I feel a bit irritated but that's because all thoses people telling "Dude the price are right there into the tables", without carring to read what is written into the book.