This.

I play a hacker with slightly boosted Agility for the sake of Forgery anyway, so it's not a terrible idea to lend some firepower if I really have to (though my first choice in combat would be screwing with the opposition's equipment -- something else that requires me to be right there with the rest of the team, if I recall correctly).

That, and my team has two trolls whose backpacks I can hide in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

The TM in my group has met the party only once--he prefers to interact with the team via a busta move. The one time he didn't even reveal himself to the group, just showed up in sec armor (its lagos), on a boat....

If you want the rigger to be physically present, note that this put them out of their element. IMHO-It is the equivalent of making a mage fight with a gun due to background count.

The only real reason for them to be present is that wifi is inhibited in some manner, such as a faraday cage, paint, or jammers.

I think it's a bit dangerous to go down the road of how do I force my gropu to do X when designing runs. Not doing it at all can be bad too, but it's easy to go overboard. I try to build my Security around what I anticipate the Companies needs to be. I go through a series of questions then design around the answers.

1 What is the primary purpose of the facility? There are big general categories that you can start with Manufacturing, Administrative, R & D, Distribution

2 What is the relative value of the work being done there? An Administrative facility that happens to house the Global Marketing Strategy archives is way more valuable than a storage and distribution facility for stuffers.

3 What does the Facility need to function efficiently? Research Labs can be fairly isolated and have movement and access restricted far more than a distribution center can for example

Those 3 questions usually form the basis of my security scheme, then I'll adjust based on things like the repuration and specialty of the company (Aztech for example is known for over equipped, under trained, security personnel in large numbers while Mitsuhama has a reputation for fearsome technology based security) Budget (The primary goal of Megacorps is making money, they are not going to become unprofitable to secure a Matrix Customer Service Call Center)

Then after designing a system that makes sense to what it's guarding I'll make some adjustments to make it playable for the group. What has been interesting about this is that features that I've thrown in that seem innocuous or sometimes just to be cheap have occasionally confounded the players, for example when the corp simply left the manual key & tumbler locks on the internal doors because they came with the building.

When you feel a rigger or hacker doing their duties off-site feels like they are too secure compared to others, you aren't understanding the point of their existence in the first place. It is simply part of their abilities to perform off site. They simply have to deal with different types of risks than their onsite teammates. Things like jammers and deadzones, other hackers, traces... These are the risks they have to deal with. But like the risks their teammates deal with, these shouldn't show up in places they don't belong. A well placed jammer on a run can cut them off from their team, effectively rendering them as useful as an unconscience teammate. Its a steep price to pay for sitting on the sidelines. But you should definitely not make it the norm. The world shouldn't become jammer central just because you feel uncomfortable with not being able to physically harm them. There are already systems in place to deal with this type of player. Don't alienate them. Challenging a player doesn't mean having to bring them near death.

For ghost's sakes the whole point of fourth edition was to get people out of the decker bunker. The world should be Jammer central because that is one of the best ways to protect your sensitive wifi networks. Keeping any network worth it's paydata off the larger matrix should be just one more step in the security plan that involves ICE, spiders, . Personally if you are not using traces, wifi impedment (or hardwired network) access logs, and corporate or police response team to make the Hacker or Riggers life hard I don't feel your doing the setting justice. Further as his teammates if i'm constantly putting my life on the line and wading through the sewers and all that other fun stuff and I might die because a door closes and I don't have hacker support I would seriously start to look at why the Hacker gets a full share of the run's pay outs when they are taking a fraction of the risks.

Indeed. And those risks should help motivate them to come on site. But the risks shouldn't actually be everywhere at all times. Just likely enough that they can expect to run into them from time to time. Sure, they are gambling with YOUR lives, and your character should probably motivate their decision to tag along, but if they insist on sitting in their safe bunker and shit hits the fan and they fail to do their job, of course they shouldn't get their pay, and likely get some bad cred on the side. If you play it right, they should feel the need to come on site just because of the potential of risk, not because its actually there.

That's a bit mean-spirited. If people enjoy playing a bunker-decker, why not let them enjoy it? It has its own challenges; perhaps the player isn't interested in direct combat but is more interested in the puzzling aspect of figuring out how to deal with the enemy base. Or he likes to play "chess" with drones rather than duking it out physically.



Believable in-game computer security is a good thing, and can be a challenge to hackers; sometimes coming along physically might be a good tactic. But it shouldn't be mandated by the GM that the hacker must go along all the time. Signal difficulties are a challenge; a hacker might come up with a different way to set up signal connection to the inner sanctum.



As the Sam Inside its reasonable to expect your hacker to watch your back, but that doesn't necessarily mean you want to be carrying around someone who'd be a liability in physical combat.



The focus should be on simultaneous, integrated team action. The hacking shouldn't be a separate game with barely any relation to what the other PCs are up to. But that doesn't mean the hacker needs to be physically present.

the problem with jammers everywhere and other tricks... it's expensive and hinders functionality of the site.

When you have to have wired connections, no drones [wifi inhibiting paint/construction means you need men not drones], little to no AR systems, etc...

It is more a problem than a help for the company. There is a balance between cost, effectivness, and operations.

If cost is too high, corp says no
If effectiveness is too low, corp says no
If it hinders operations, corp say hell no

In 4th ed with the wireless Matrix and the concurrent Astral/Matrix/Meat Body rules, there is really NO reason that the Hacker/Rigger/TM SHOULDN'T be on-site.

For one thing, an on-site rigger is a huge force multiplier to the combat folks, and most security drones will only have enough signal rating to cover the site itself, making it difficult if not impossible to back-hack them if you're NOT on-site. Then, there's always the issue of uni-directional transmitters. A high-sec area might use laser transmitters in a tower outside (and in a hardwired system inside) to control the drones. Slave them to the security node, and you have drones that you'll have to disable by force rather than hacking, unless you can hardline access the building's system... from inside.

Same goes for hackers. If you think of any system that is connected to the greater matrix, then obviously all of the security measures, IC, and alarms for spiders will be on the nodes that connect directly to the outside, or the next layer in. Hacking your way in from the outside might be more time consuming, and more prone to detection, than accessing a low-security node from the inside.

Alternately, you may want to emphasize that an elite on-site security team is using a tacnet, combat drones, or other electronic shenanigans with with low signal ratings that make them difficult for the combatants in the team to take on by themselves. It will force the hacker to accompany the team to get close to the OPFOR. While the combatants engage the enemy, they will also have to defend the hacker/TM while he works to crash the system so that the team can counterattack and take them down.

Physically going on a run against a facility is dangerous. It must be made clear on a case-by-case basis that physical presence is necessary or at least worth the risk, not the other way around.

Hackers are often people who believe in the superiority of the prepared mind over physical busybodies. They'll be interested in asymmetric tactics, where their own body isn't needlessly at risk while the enemy is.



You can achieve all this from a bunker with a wired line back to a Signal relay post or two on-site.



So have a teammate patch in a relay plug for you once they're on-site.



If the enemy uses low-Signal Tacnets, bring out the Jammers. But you don't need to be physically present for that; a drone or teammate can do that for you.

The magic word is Relay.

fiberoptic tap, tapper drone...

You can get around the jammers, etal... team hooks up a link on site to the matrix, tapped into a local node (including a low security one like a camera...) Team deploys a strong smart jammer that skips that one signal

Suddenly the site is at a disadvantage, not the runners. The datatap link gives the hacker an easier route in and lets them remotly own the site through it's own network (not to mention makes trace a bit harder when used properly)

There are ways around all the tricks for preventing remote access that can be utilized so someone doesn't have to dual spec.

The sami doesn't have to spec into being a hacker or rigger
The mage doesn't have to spec into being a hacker or rigger

If someone has to spend part of their character development focused on an area that does not intrest them... then they don't play.

there is a balance, if you make it so that all riggers/hackers have to be on site every time.. none will play one, forcing the GM to handle a NPC in the group because if someone has to have combat/intrusion skills then they might as well play a combat monster.

It's just the way things are, you try to force a player to play one way they don't... they stop playing and you lose a player. Nobody likes being railroaded into playing one certain way... if you want that, just write short stories instead of being a GM

See, here I have to disagree... I see the tactics that have been mentioned above as a challenge... I currently play a Hacker/Tactical Coordinator... and it is very difficult to keep everything online from a distance... there is just too many things that can go wrong, and then you are out of the loop for the rest of the session. I go on every run that is presented, and now, I do it onsite, rather than from the bunker. Why? Because I am a lot more useful present than I am away. I can Hack, Jam, Control Drones, Take over tactical Networks, etc. with little to no effort as compared to trying this from an offsite position. I have tried the remote option earlier in the Character's career, and at some point in the run, things always tended to go south and I was needed at the site to compensate, so I quit trying to go remotre at that point... And you kjnow something? Our team became a lot more effective at that point... things that were causing difficulty, because either myself or the TM were remote, went away when we were onsite... lesson learned, I am now onsite always.

As for the "No one would play one then" comment, I have not seen that... I, for one, am a perfect example of someone that will go with the GM on this one... And I have never accused the GM of Railroading me on this... the security profiles make sense, and the world is what it is...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

It makes sense for some site... but when every rinky dink site is suddenly a zero zero zone that would make MCT cream themselves it's too much.

The hidden research site in the swamps, yeah make it a hell that is immposible to hack remotely. The office park where small accounting and law firms rent offices for use, shouldl not be a zero zero facility...

If I run into a gm that makes it so you have to go to every location as a hacker/rigger in the flesh... I walk. If some sites are set up like that for a reason it's one thing, but the average factory isn't going to be done that way... it's just not cost or functionaly effective to block wireless signals (it's easier to rely on the wireless systems to alert maintence and management if a system is having issues, etc)

Oh definitely, no doubt... but when a site has that kind of rinky dink security, then why am I being hired to hit it... the Corps can save a lot of bucks by hiring a nobody to do so... Those are the kind of sites I hit for fun, not for profit... I have never claimed that the offices as you describe are that way in our game; They are out there and they are plentiful... But if I am being hired to hit such a place, I have to wonder if it is a setup, because I charge too much, and such a site is generally beneath me.

I am not hired to hit Average Factories... I am hired to hit secret R&D Facilities, Local Corporate Headquarters, Secret Serveer Farms, Zero Zones, and whatnot... If I was interested in low-level rinky-dink no-nothing offices, then I would play such a character... I know they exist in our city, they just do not interest me all that much... and when I do access them, I am generally not on site for those, because they are not runs that I have been hired for; they are personal projects of mine that I pursue off run. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

And a note... it is VERY cost effecient to use wi-fi inhibiting schema... probably the cheapest way to go about it actually.

Keep the Faith

You will be surprised at how much data you can get on a site from those rinky dink locations as part of your legwork...

I've had a run against a government site made a lot easier by looking up old public bidding contracts for renovations... something as simple as a carpet replacement in the building can be a treasure trove.. due to having to have the floor plan and dimensions to estimate the costs. (and governments have public bids on such contracts, same with construction)

And some of us do play lower power games where the nuyen/karma isn't so high. After all most TMs start out with lower skills than say a street sam at creation (especially with 400 bp) and have to work up to the near godlike skills of other types.

Sure.. No doubt... but you are not running on the public works building... you are gathering information prior to your operation on the site... they are two very different tasks all together...

As for the High Powered Characters... eventually everyone gets there if the campaigns last long enough... I am not knocking any one (or their style) out there... just once you have several hunfred Karma under your belt, you are no longer hired to hit the small stuff... your skills are more in demand for the high-end targets that the newbie characters just cannot handle at all... I actually like a mix of this type of game... we arew about to start another thread of our current campaign, whre our long time characters become the movers and shakers and we start with low level gangers and work our ways up... we will also have a small stable of independent runners for our GM to construct the various runs against, using those that would be the logical characters for the run... I believe the mix will be 50% Ganger Characters, 25% Long Time Character (for those runs the low level guys just cannot handle) and 25% from the Stable of Characters for the offshoots... it sounds like a lot of fun to me... can't wait myself.

I agree with you on Technomancers... they do have issues when starting against almost any other charactrer type in Shadowrun... but eventually that evens out as well, and you become very, very useful indeed...

Keep the Faith

Why do I feel like I am listening to the back and forth from Eliot Spencer and Alec Hardison on Leverage.

By the way Eliot supporter here.