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Elfenlied
Hello all,
I've got a question on how you guys handle Technomancers/Riggers who don't enter the target area along with the rest of the group, but rather stay safely in their vehicle/at home and remote control their drones. What irks me is that I can't really touch these characters with anything short of EMP rockets, therefore they can usually afford to dump their physical stats.


So, is there any way I can encourage them to actually enter the area in question?
MortVent
Trace

Secure facilites with anti-wireless systems (requiring hard wired links on site to get to the real data)

basically make some sites impossible to remote into...

Evil GM: took one research facility. The daily backups/emails/etc were saved up.. gateway system boots up, temporary link to the facility network to upload all the data to send and then severs that link and reboots, then connects to the matrix to transmit it all and pull down the data for the local site, reboots, runs a full system sweet with purge, then connects to the local net and transmits. Then it shut down.

Make the decker scream something fierce since he had to be on site to get the data and security owned.
hermit
Make them have to do legwork-intensive runs. Make them have to infiltrate. Or just give them a disease.
Belvidere
In fairness, it is not easy to make a technomancer who is good at going in the meat if you aren't a long time player or just naturally good at min maxing. And as for a rigger, I still wouldn't want to dump my physical stats if you're truly rigging something, you use your agility for shooting and your reaction for piloting. Or if you're really mean and want to stop their drones have people with stick and shock rounds, lightning bolt and other rigger/hackers on the scene trying to use the PCs drones against them.
Elfenlied
Essentially, I want to be able to stop their drones without making the character in question useless for the rest of the session. E.g. the TM's drones get destroyed, but she's still on site and hijacks some of the corporate drones. Also, TMs who dump their physical stats should face the same consequences as mages who do so, except that usually the mage has to be in the heat, while the TM doesn't.
hermit
QUOTE
Also, TMs who dump their physical stats should face the same consequences as mages who do so, except that usually the mage has to be in the heat, while the TM doesn't.

TMs get preferrential treatment by SR4 rules, fact.

However, they really need every dump they can get if built with BP (Even with SR4A, Karmagen gets you much more bang for the buck in mancers).
Belvidere
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 30 2010, 06:34 PM) *
Essentially, I want to be able to stop their drones without making the character in question useless for the rest of the session. E.g. the TM's drones get destroyed, but she's still on site and hijacks some of the corporate drones. Also, TMs who dump their physical stats should face the same consequences as mages who do so, except that usually the mage has to be in the heat, while the TM doesn't.


Thats really just the biggest bonus about being a rigger/hacker. You don't have to but you body at risk. But if someone tracks you down to your meat body, you're pretty much screwed if you treat your body like garbage.
MortVent
you'd be surprised at how fast a mage can avoid being there "in the meat" by using dual natured astral pigment capsule rounds carried by a sami ... grounding is fun!

Sec guard "hey the troll just shot me with a paint gun!"
Sec mage "oh.. it's dual natu.."
*BOOOM!*
Belvidere
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jun 30 2010, 05:38 PM) *
you'd be surprised at how fast a mage can avoid being there "in the meat" by using dual natured astral pigment capsule rounds carried by a sami ... grounding is fun!

Sec guard "hey the troll just shot me with a paint gun!"
Sec mage "oh.. it's dual natu.."
*BOOOM!*


Or you just play a summoner. And just project around telling them to kill stuff.
hermit
Much more effective. Spirits are the mage's true power in SR, not spells.
Elfenlied
Well, we're playing Karmagen with <New Attribute>x3, so I don't believe TMs get the short end of the stick in this regard. As for the dual-natured paintgun, the Sam is putting himself at risk of getting fried himself.
MortVent
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 30 2010, 06:50 PM) *
Well, we're playing Karmagen with <New Attribute>x3, so I don't believe TMs get the short end of the stick in this regard. As for the dual-natured paintgun, the Sam is putting himself at risk of getting fried himself.


True, but only if the sec mage is astral in which case the team's mage is going to notice and sick spirits or spells on them.. preferably grounding through them
Ascalaphus
What about opposing hackers? If you want to jump into drones, that means you're using VR, which means you become vulnerable to biofeedback.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jun 30 2010, 04:38 PM) *
you'd be surprised at how fast a mage can avoid being there "in the meat" by using dual natured astral pigment capsule rounds carried by a sami ... grounding is fun!

Sec guard "hey the troll just shot me with a paint gun!"
Sec mage "oh.. it's dual natu.."
*BOOOM!*



Grounding does not work in 4th... even if they are coated with a Dual Natured Astral Pigment, you may ONLY target the Pigment, and not what it is covering... now if you were using Shade with DMSO, that would be a different game entirely, as you force the target to Project (even if mundane)... That gets nasty real quick, even if it is a bit expensive...

Keep the Faith
Traul
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 1 2010, 01:34 AM) *
Essentially, I want to be able to stop their drones without making the character in question useless for the rest of the session. E.g. the TM's drones get destroyed, but she's still on site and hijacks some of the corporate drones. Also, TMs who dump their physical stats should face the same consequences as mages who do so, except that usually the mage has to be in the heat, while the TM doesn't.

This is their problem, not yours. Warn them first OOC, then jam their drones a couple of times, and maybe they will think about other tactics.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 30 2010, 05:28 PM) *
This is their problem, not yours. Warn them first OOC, then jam their drones a couple of times, and maybe they will think about other tactics.



Simple Jamming works wonders... and is really not all that difficult at all...

Keep the Faith
Belvidere
QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 30 2010, 07:28 PM) *
This is their problem, not yours. Warn them first OOC, then jam their drones a couple of times, and maybe they will think about other tactics.

Wow, you're nice. There's no way I'd warn them grinbig.gif
Traul
Not that I want to be nice, but it helps to fix things. If you don't help them, they won't think "we screwed up somewhere" but "the GM is a dick".
Telion
A couple people mentioned Jamming and the wi-fi paint. Both great ways to force the TM to enter the building. Another option for making the drones closer is to do this in a AA or AAA security area. If their PAN is covering too large an area (i.e. drone too far away from TM), I'm sure some security deckers will take notice and send someone to investigate.

Or have part of a mission require the starting of some machinery that messes with wireless signals something fierce. If they want to be any part of the next part of the mission they'll need to go with. Perhaps the team needs to go down an elevator to ... the core.

Or you could harass them with security. Security teams rotate and search his hideout... astral security... etc... might be safer with the team after all.
MortVent
Don't forget, many sites will go offline during an alert... literally cutting off outside matrix connections to their networks.

So not on site, suddenly the team has no matrix cover...

Or my personal favorite to bring hackers/deckers to tears... Satellite only link to the matrix from the site (truely evil in how it hits hard on the fact the locals have full matrix initiative, but those remote attackers do not) [even more evil is if the sat relay connection is from site A to sat, sat to main corp offices... so in other words remote hacking it means first hacking through say the main Azzie corp host, hack through the sat, then hack into the remote site]
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jun 30 2010, 07:49 PM) *
Don't forget, many sites will go offline during an alert... literally cutting off outside matrix connections to their networks.

So not on site, suddenly the team has no matrix cover...

Or my personal favorite to bring hackers/deckers to tears... Satellite only link to the matrix from the site (truely evil in how it hits hard on the fact the locals have full matrix initiative, but those remote attackers do not) [even more evil is if the sat relay connection is from site A to sat, sat to main corp offices... so in other words remote hacking it means first hacking through say the main Azzie corp host, hack through the sat, then hack into the remote site]


Yeah, Slaving via Satellites is very rude indeed...

Keep the Faith
Rock_Bottom
I play a technomancer. Maybe it's just my personality, but I've never felt that I should be off-site for a job. Off-site hacking is for information gathering before the op (hopefully with a few days lead time to set up dummy accounts to thwart traces).

But, during the operation, I feel it is my responsibility to be on-site. Nevermind the fact that I might have to adjust to changing conditions while hacking. I need to be there because I am another gun. I'm not as skilled as the gunadept, but I have done my fair share of damage with my Ingram. The rules give plenty of options for getting the hacker on-site, and they've been mentioned here.

One thing to keep in mind is Signal rating. A lot of times my group forgets that Matrix communication is two-way. So, even if a rigger has a commlink with a 5 signal, he's not going to be able to communicate with his 2 or 3 signal drones over long distances. In that case, he's going to have to bounce his signal through various nodes on the Matrix, and that's when you hit him with the opposing hacker. Or, maybe the "cell towers" (or whatever they're called in 2070) in the immediate area are faulty, and prone to dropping signals, or the location of the op is in a dead zone. In such cases, your hackers are going to need to be on-site to deal with that problem.

Riggers would be a bit different, especially if they like to jump into their drones a lot. VR makes you meatbody an easier target. I think a lot of people, though, tend to ignore the possibilities of AR and just go straight for full immersion. Start introducing black IC if your hackers never leave VR. I've been tempted once or twice to make a street sam/hacker just to screw with my GM.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Rock_Bottom @ Jul 1 2010, 09:41 AM) *
One thing to keep in mind is Signal rating. A lot of times my group forgets that Matrix communication is two-way. So, even if a rigger has a commlink with a 5 signal, he's not going to be able to communicate with his 2 or 3 signal drones over long distances. In that case, he's going to have to bounce his signal through various nodes on the Matrix, and that's when you hit him with the opposing hacker. Or, maybe the "cell towers" (or whatever they're called in 2070) in the immediate area are faulty, and prone to dropping signals, or the location of the op is in a dead zone. In such cases, your hackers are going to need to be on-site to deal with that problem.


That's why you make the rest of your team carry Signal 5+ commlinks with ECCM. Remember, a good rigger considers the rest of the team to be drones as well nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE (Rock_Bottom @ Jul 1 2010, 09:41 AM) *
Riggers would be a bit different, especially if they like to jump into their drones a lot. VR makes you meatbody an easier target. I think a lot of people, though, tend to ignore the possibilities of AR and just go straight for full immersion. Start introducing black IC if your hackers never leave VR. I've been tempted once or twice to make a street sam/hacker just to screw with my GM.


Well, VR allows 5IPs if you trick it out a bit, and opens up the really big dice pools even on drones with poor stats on their own. But if you expect a drone to get shot up, you need to get out or suffer biofeedback. Don't forget that you not only get biofeedback from damage your drones don't resist, but that you also suffer dumpshock if they're broken. Add to that hackers trying to kick you out, and a rigger really isn't all that safe. Finally, keeping up a connection to your drones gives the opposition plenty of time for traces...
Gyro
Well one if they're rigging/hacking from home I'd hand wave a trace and have a small response team show up at the teams hideout shortly after the run so the whole team can enjoy the fun wink.gif. And the vehicle isn't that big of a deal; had a gm blow the van with a group of rpg toting guards after a trace. If they're jumped in and have no sense of the vehicle have a gang steal the wheels. Have fun with it.


This post brought to you by the BB 8330.
Mister Book
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 30 2010, 11:36 PM) *
TMs get preferrential treatment by SR4 rules, fact.



How so?
Squiddy Attack
QUOTE (Rock_Bottom @ Jul 1 2010, 12:41 AM) *
I've never felt that I should be off-site for a job. Off-site hacking is for information gathering before the op (hopefully with a few days lead time to set up dummy accounts to thwart traces).

But, during the operation, I feel it is my responsibility to be on-site. Nevermind the fact that I might have to adjust to changing conditions while hacking. I need to be there because I am another gun. I'm not as skilled as the gunadept, but I have done my fair share of damage with my Ingram.


This.

I play a hacker with slightly boosted Agility for the sake of Forgery anyway, so it's not a terrible idea to lend some firepower if I really have to (though my first choice in combat would be screwing with the opposition's equipment -- something else that requires me to be right there with the rest of the team, if I recall correctly).

That, and my team has two trolls whose backpacks I can hide in. grinbig.gif
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Gyro @ Jul 1 2010, 06:29 AM) *
Well one if they're rigging/hacking from home I'd hand wave a trace and have a small response team show up at the teams hideout shortly after the run so the whole team can enjoy the fun wink.gif. And the vehicle isn't that big of a deal; had a gm blow the van with a group of rpg toting guards after a trace. If they're jumped in and have no sense of the vehicle have a gang steal the wheels. Have fun with it.


This post brought to you by the BB 8330.


The TM in my group has met the party only once--he prefers to interact with the team via a busta move. The one time he didn't even reveal himself to the group, just showed up in sec armor (its lagos), on a boat....

If you want the rigger to be physically present, note that this put them out of their element. IMHO-It is the equivalent of making a mage fight with a gun due to background count.

The only real reason for them to be present is that wifi is inhibited in some manner, such as a faraday cage, paint, or jammers.
stevebugge
I think it's a bit dangerous to go down the road of how do I force my gropu to do X when designing runs. Not doing it at all can be bad too, but it's easy to go overboard. I try to build my Security around what I anticipate the Companies needs to be. I go through a series of questions then design around the answers.

1 What is the primary purpose of the facility? There are big general categories that you can start with Manufacturing, Administrative, R & D, Distribution

2 What is the relative value of the work being done there? An Administrative facility that happens to house the Global Marketing Strategy archives is way more valuable than a storage and distribution facility for stuffers.

3 What does the Facility need to function efficiently? Research Labs can be fairly isolated and have movement and access restricted far more than a distribution center can for example

Those 3 questions usually form the basis of my security scheme, then I'll adjust based on things like the repuration and specialty of the company (Aztech for example is known for over equipped, under trained, security personnel in large numbers while Mitsuhama has a reputation for fearsome technology based security) Budget (The primary goal of Megacorps is making money, they are not going to become unprofitable to secure a Matrix Customer Service Call Center)

Then after designing a system that makes sense to what it's guarding I'll make some adjustments to make it playable for the group. What has been interesting about this is that features that I've thrown in that seem innocuous or sometimes just to be cheap have occasionally confounded the players, for example when the corp simply left the manual key & tumbler locks on the internal doors because they came with the building.
Railgun
When you feel a rigger or hacker doing their duties off-site feels like they are too secure compared to others, you aren't understanding the point of their existence in the first place. It is simply part of their abilities to perform off site. They simply have to deal with different types of risks than their onsite teammates. Things like jammers and deadzones, other hackers, traces... These are the risks they have to deal with. But like the risks their teammates deal with, these shouldn't show up in places they don't belong. A well placed jammer on a run can cut them off from their team, effectively rendering them as useful as an unconscience teammate. Its a steep price to pay for sitting on the sidelines. But you should definitely not make it the norm. The world shouldn't become jammer central just because you feel uncomfortable with not being able to physically harm them. There are already systems in place to deal with this type of player. Don't alienate them. Challenging a player doesn't mean having to bring them near death.
LurkerOutThere

For ghost's sakes the whole point of fourth edition was to get people out of the decker bunker. The world should be Jammer central because that is one of the best ways to protect your sensitive wifi networks. Keeping any network worth it's paydata off the larger matrix should be just one more step in the security plan that involves ICE, spiders, . Personally if you are not using traces, wifi impedment (or hardwired network) access logs, and corporate or police response team to make the Hacker or Riggers life hard I don't feel your doing the setting justice. Further as his teammates if i'm constantly putting my life on the line and wading through the sewers and all that other fun stuff and I might die because a door closes and I don't have hacker support I would seriously start to look at why the Hacker gets a full share of the run's pay outs when they are taking a fraction of the risks.
Railgun
Indeed. And those risks should help motivate them to come on site. But the risks shouldn't actually be everywhere at all times. Just likely enough that they can expect to run into them from time to time. Sure, they are gambling with YOUR lives, and your character should probably motivate their decision to tag along, but if they insist on sitting in their safe bunker and shit hits the fan and they fail to do their job, of course they shouldn't get their pay, and likely get some bad cred on the side. If you play it right, they should feel the need to come on site just because of the potential of risk, not because its actually there.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 8 2010, 09:41 PM) *
For ghost's sakes the whole point of fourth edition was to get people out of the decker bunker.


That's a bit mean-spirited. If people enjoy playing a bunker-decker, why not let them enjoy it? It has its own challenges; perhaps the player isn't interested in direct combat but is more interested in the puzzling aspect of figuring out how to deal with the enemy base. Or he likes to play "chess" with drones rather than duking it out physically.

QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 8 2010, 09:41 PM) *
The world should be Jammer central because that is one of the best ways to protect your sensitive wifi networks. Keeping any network worth it's paydata off the larger matrix should be just one more step in the security plan that involves ICE, spiders, . Personally if you are not using traces, wifi impedment (or hardwired network) access logs, and corporate or police response team to make the Hacker or Riggers life hard I don't feel your doing the setting justice.


Believable in-game computer security is a good thing, and can be a challenge to hackers; sometimes coming along physically might be a good tactic. But it shouldn't be mandated by the GM that the hacker must go along all the time. Signal difficulties are a challenge; a hacker might come up with a different way to set up signal connection to the inner sanctum.

QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 8 2010, 09:41 PM) *
Further as his teammates if i'm constantly putting my life on the line and wading through the sewers and all that other fun stuff and I might die because a door closes and I don't have hacker support I would seriously start to look at why the Hacker gets a full share of the run's pay outs when they are taking a fraction of the risks.


As the Sam Inside its reasonable to expect your hacker to watch your back, but that doesn't necessarily mean you want to be carrying around someone who'd be a liability in physical combat.



The focus should be on simultaneous, integrated team action. The hacking shouldn't be a separate game with barely any relation to what the other PCs are up to. But that doesn't mean the hacker needs to be physically present.
MortVent
the problem with jammers everywhere and other tricks... it's expensive and hinders functionality of the site.

When you have to have wired connections, no drones [wifi inhibiting paint/construction means you need men not drones], little to no AR systems, etc...

It is more a problem than a help for the company. There is a balance between cost, effectivness, and operations.

If cost is too high, corp says no
If effectiveness is too low, corp says no
If it hinders operations, corp say hell no

LivingOxymoron
In 4th ed with the wireless Matrix and the concurrent Astral/Matrix/Meat Body rules, there is really NO reason that the Hacker/Rigger/TM SHOULDN'T be on-site.

For one thing, an on-site rigger is a huge force multiplier to the combat folks, and most security drones will only have enough signal rating to cover the site itself, making it difficult if not impossible to back-hack them if you're NOT on-site. Then, there's always the issue of uni-directional transmitters. A high-sec area might use laser transmitters in a tower outside (and in a hardwired system inside) to control the drones. Slave them to the security node, and you have drones that you'll have to disable by force rather than hacking, unless you can hardline access the building's system... from inside.

Same goes for hackers. If you think of any system that is connected to the greater matrix, then obviously all of the security measures, IC, and alarms for spiders will be on the nodes that connect directly to the outside, or the next layer in. Hacking your way in from the outside might be more time consuming, and more prone to detection, than accessing a low-security node from the inside.

Alternately, you may want to emphasize that an elite on-site security team is using a tacnet, combat drones, or other electronic shenanigans with with low signal ratings that make them difficult for the combatants in the team to take on by themselves. It will force the hacker to accompany the team to get close to the OPFOR. While the combatants engage the enemy, they will also have to defend the hacker/TM while he works to crash the system so that the team can counterattack and take them down.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (LivingOxymoron @ Jul 8 2010, 11:12 PM) *
In 4th ed with the wireless Matrix and the concurrent Astral/Matrix/Meat Body rules, there is really NO reason that the Hacker/Rigger/TM SHOULDN'T be on-site.


Physically going on a run against a facility is dangerous. It must be made clear on a case-by-case basis that physical presence is necessary or at least worth the risk, not the other way around.

Hackers are often people who believe in the superiority of the prepared mind over physical busybodies. They'll be interested in asymmetric tactics, where their own body isn't needlessly at risk while the enemy is.

QUOTE (LivingOxymoron @ Jul 8 2010, 11:12 PM) *
For one thing, an on-site rigger is a huge force multiplier to the combat folks, and most security drones will only have enough signal rating to cover the site itself, making it difficult if not impossible to back-hack them if you're NOT on-site. Then, there's always the issue of uni-directional transmitters. A high-sec area might use laser transmitters in a tower outside (and in a hardwired system inside) to control the drones. Slave them to the security node, and you have drones that you'll have to disable by force rather than hacking, unless you can hardline access the building's system... from inside.


You can achieve all this from a bunker with a wired line back to a Signal relay post or two on-site.

QUOTE (LivingOxymoron @ Jul 8 2010, 11:12 PM) *
Same goes for hackers. If you think of any system that is connected to the greater matrix, then obviously all of the security measures, IC, and alarms for spiders will be on the nodes that connect directly to the outside, or the next layer in. Hacking your way in from the outside might be more time consuming, and more prone to detection, than accessing a low-security node from the inside.


So have a teammate patch in a relay plug for you once they're on-site.

QUOTE (LivingOxymoron @ Jul 8 2010, 11:12 PM) *
Alternately, you may want to emphasize that an elite on-site security team is using a tacnet, combat drones, or other electronic shenanigans with with low signal ratings that make them difficult for the combatants in the team to take on by themselves. It will force the hacker to accompany the team to get close to the OPFOR. While the combatants engage the enemy, they will also have to defend the hacker/TM while he works to crash the system so that the team can counterattack and take them down.


If the enemy uses low-Signal Tacnets, bring out the Jammers. But you don't need to be physically present for that; a drone or teammate can do that for you.

The magic word is Relay.
MortVent
fiberoptic tap, tapper drone...

You can get around the jammers, etal... team hooks up a link on site to the matrix, tapped into a local node (including a low security one like a camera...) Team deploys a strong smart jammer that skips that one signal

Suddenly the site is at a disadvantage, not the runners. The datatap link gives the hacker an easier route in and lets them remotly own the site through it's own network (not to mention makes trace a bit harder when used properly)

There are ways around all the tricks for preventing remote access that can be utilized so someone doesn't have to dual spec.

The sami doesn't have to spec into being a hacker or rigger
The mage doesn't have to spec into being a hacker or rigger

If someone has to spend part of their character development focused on an area that does not intrest them... then they don't play.

there is a balance, if you make it so that all riggers/hackers have to be on site every time.. none will play one, forcing the GM to handle a NPC in the group because if someone has to have combat/intrusion skills then they might as well play a combat monster.

It's just the way things are, you try to force a player to play one way they don't... they stop playing and you lose a player. Nobody likes being railroaded into playing one certain way... if you want that, just write short stories instead of being a GM
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jul 8 2010, 03:31 PM) *
There are ways around all the tricks for preventing remote access that can be utilized so someone doesn't have to dual spec.

The sami doesn't have to spec into being a hacker or rigger
The mage doesn't have to spec into being a hacker or rigger

If someone has to spend part of their character development focused on an area that does not intrest them... then they don't play.

there is a balance, if you make it so that all riggers/hackers have to be on site every time.. none will play one, forcing the GM to handle a NPC in the group because if someone has to have combat/intrusion skills then they might as well play a combat monster.

It's just the way things are, you try to force a player to play one way they don't... they stop playing and you lose a player. Nobody likes being railroaded into playing one certain way... if you want that, just write short stories instead of being a GM


See, here I have to disagree... I see the tactics that have been mentioned above as a challenge... I currently play a Hacker/Tactical Coordinator... and it is very difficult to keep everything online from a distance... there is just too many things that can go wrong, and then you are out of the loop for the rest of the session. I go on every run that is presented, and now, I do it onsite, rather than from the bunker. Why? Because I am a lot more useful present than I am away. I can Hack, Jam, Control Drones, Take over tactical Networks, etc. with little to no effort as compared to trying this from an offsite position. I have tried the remote option earlier in the Character's career, and at some point in the run, things always tended to go south and I was needed at the site to compensate, so I quit trying to go remotre at that point... And you kjnow something? Our team became a lot more effective at that point... things that were causing difficulty, because either myself or the TM were remote, went away when we were onsite... lesson learned, I am now onsite always.

As for the "No one would play one then" comment, I have not seen that... I, for one, am a perfect example of someone that will go with the GM on this one... And I have never accused the GM of Railroading me on this... the security profiles make sense, and the world is what it is...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith
MortVent
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2010, 07:36 PM) *
See, here I have to disagree... I see the tactics that have been mentioned above as a challenge... I currently play a Hacker/Tactical Coordinator... and it is very difficult to keep everything online from a distance... there is just too many things that can go wrong, and then you are out of the loop for the rest of the session. I go on every run that is presented, and now, I do it onsite, rather than from the bunker. Why? Because I am a lot more useful present than I am away. I can Hack, Jam, Control Drones, Take over tactical Networks, etc. with little to no effort as compared to trying this from an offsite position. I have tried the remote option earlier in the Character's career, and at some point in the run, things always tended to go south and I was needed at the site to compensate, so I quit trying to go remotre at that point... And you kjnow something? Our team became a lot more effective at that point... things that were causing difficulty, because either myself or the TM were remote, went away when we were onsite... lesson learned, I am now onsite always.

As for the "No one would play one then" comment, I have not seen that... I, for one, am a perfect example of someone that will go with the GM on this one... And I have never accused the GM of Railroading me on this... the security profiles make sense, and the world is what it is...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith


It makes sense for some site... but when every rinky dink site is suddenly a zero zero zone that would make MCT cream themselves it's too much.

The hidden research site in the swamps, yeah make it a hell that is immposible to hack remotely. The office park where small accounting and law firms rent offices for use, shouldl not be a zero zero facility...

If I run into a gm that makes it so you have to go to every location as a hacker/rigger in the flesh... I walk. If some sites are set up like that for a reason it's one thing, but the average factory isn't going to be done that way... it's just not cost or functionaly effective to block wireless signals (it's easier to rely on the wireless systems to alert maintence and management if a system is having issues, etc)

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jul 8 2010, 04:46 PM) *
It makes sense for some site... but when every rinky dink site is suddenly a zero zero zone that would make MCT cream themselves it's too much.

The hidden research site in the swamps, yeah make it a hell that is immposible to hack remotely. The office park where small accounting and law firms rent offices for use, shouldl not be a zero zero facility...

If I run into a gm that makes it so you have to go to every location as a hacker/rigger in the flesh... I walk. If some sites are set up like that for a reason it's one thing, but the average factory isn't going to be done that way... it's just not cost or functionaly effective to block wireless signals (it's easier to rely on the wireless systems to alert maintence and management if a system is having issues, etc)


Oh definitely, no doubt... but when a site has that kind of rinky dink security, then why am I being hired to hit it... the Corps can save a lot of bucks by hiring a nobody to do so... Those are the kind of sites I hit for fun, not for profit... I have never claimed that the offices as you describe are that way in our game; They are out there and they are plentiful... But if I am being hired to hit such a place, I have to wonder if it is a setup, because I charge too much, and such a site is generally beneath me.

I am not hired to hit Average Factories... I am hired to hit secret R&D Facilities, Local Corporate Headquarters, Secret Serveer Farms, Zero Zones, and whatnot... If I was interested in low-level rinky-dink no-nothing offices, then I would play such a character... I know they exist in our city, they just do not interest me all that much... and when I do access them, I am generally not on site for those, because they are not runs that I have been hired for; they are personal projects of mine that I pursue off run. wobble.gif

And a note... it is VERY cost effecient to use wi-fi inhibiting schema... probably the cheapest way to go about it actually.

Keep the Faith
MortVent
You will be surprised at how much data you can get on a site from those rinky dink locations as part of your legwork...

I've had a run against a government site made a lot easier by looking up old public bidding contracts for renovations... something as simple as a carpet replacement in the building can be a treasure trove.. due to having to have the floor plan and dimensions to estimate the costs. (and governments have public bids on such contracts, same with construction)

And some of us do play lower power games where the nuyen/karma isn't so high. After all most TMs start out with lower skills than say a street sam at creation (especially with 400 bp) and have to work up to the near godlike skills of other types.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (MortVent @ Jul 8 2010, 05:32 PM) *
You will be surprised at how much data you can get on a site from those rinky dink locations as part of your legwork...

I've had a run against a government site made a lot easier by looking up old public bidding contracts for renovations... something as simple as a carpet replacement in the building can be a treasure trove.. due to having to have the floor plan and dimensions to estimate the costs. (and governments have public bids on such contracts, same with construction)

And some of us do play lower power games where the nuyen/karma isn't so high. After all most TMs start out with lower skills than say a street sam at creation (especially with 400 bp) and have to work up to the near godlike skills of other types.


Sure.. No doubt... but you are not running on the public works building... you are gathering information prior to your operation on the site... they are two very different tasks all together...

As for the High Powered Characters... eventually everyone gets there if the campaigns last long enough... I am not knocking any one (or their style) out there... just once you have several hunfred Karma under your belt, you are no longer hired to hit the small stuff... your skills are more in demand for the high-end targets that the newbie characters just cannot handle at all... I actually like a mix of this type of game... we arew about to start another thread of our current campaign, whre our long time characters become the movers and shakers and we start with low level gangers and work our ways up... we will also have a small stable of independent runners for our GM to construct the various runs against, using those that would be the logical characters for the run... I believe the mix will be 50% Ganger Characters, 25% Long Time Character (for those runs the low level guys just cannot handle) and 25% from the Stable of Characters for the offshoots... it sounds like a lot of fun to me... can't wait myself.

I agree with you on Technomancers... they do have issues when starting against almost any other charactrer type in Shadowrun... but eventually that evens out as well, and you become very, very useful indeed...

Keep the Faith
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 8 2010, 02:41 PM) *
For ghost's sakes the whole point of fourth edition was to get people out of the decker bunker. The world should be Jammer central because that is one of the best ways to protect your sensitive wifi networks. Keeping any network worth it's paydata off the larger matrix should be just one more step in the security plan that involves ICE, spiders, . Personally if you are not using traces, wifi impedment (or hardwired network) access logs, and corporate or police response team to make the Hacker or Riggers life hard I don't feel your doing the setting justice. Further as his teammates if i'm constantly putting my life on the line and wading through the sewers and all that other fun stuff and I might die because a door closes and I don't have hacker support I would seriously start to look at why the Hacker gets a full share of the run's pay outs when they are taking a fraction of the risks.



Why do I feel like I am listening to the back and forth from Eliot Spencer and Alec Hardison on Leverage.

By the way Eliot supporter here.
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