Hm hm.. examples are fine. To explain my game: Playing SR4, Full 20a rules, all erratas etc. I myself STILL prefer 3rd edition, and try to hammer the old style at least a bit into that game. Players started with 400 BP, about half are reasonable good, half are overspecialized. (about 5 characters ingame)

A normal short run between adventures based on the background or "big jobs" will maybe yield about 20.000-to-30.000 Nuyen, will take maybe one-two days legwork and an evening real work. Low risk, if all keep their shit together.

They are doing a line of missions for one "unkown mysterious johnson ™" who sponsored the team (and others) but the missions are more dangerous. (They could handle it so far with zero casualties) Payment was 100.000 for the first one (testing run, advance was only 10.000), 120.000 PLUS military armor for all teammembers (was needed to run around in that radiation... don't ask) for the second one. The Armor alone was priced easily 15.000-25.000 per character)

After that an "offer" (which they shouldn't refuse) came from the russian mob which were fighting with some other mysterious organisation in my setting: The runner SHOULD really do what we ask, payment was 3.000 per person, if i remember right, and it was asked pretty much to murder three people AND sabotage an operation. Of course my players didn't take it, but that is alright... opens door for other hooks.

I just concluded one adventure based on the background of one of the runners where they got away (they worked pretty much for free, but an opportunity came up) with 10.000 per person, and one PRICELESS ARTIFACT ™, where, if they would just melt it down and sell the orichalcum used in its construction they might get rich. (about four units = 200.000 base value)

Problem is: it's a damn priceless artifact... and what does it do? Overall i am giving a mix of "too low... but eh, something is better than nothing" and "OH MY GOD, we have to do this job", but i always expect them to know when to say: NO, or when to use an opportunity to make cash from unusual sources. Also they can loot a lot. Everything you equip your opposition with, MIGHT find their way into the hands of the players. Power Foci, Weapon Foci, exotic armor and weapons, credsticks and numbers and passwords for open numbered accounts, laundered money. MANY opportunities to earn on the side WHILE on a job.

If you think about the run payouts too much the wheels come off on the setting. What does my 2,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month "lifestyle" cost? Just my apartment with a good bolt? What about the new firearms I need after I shot somebody on the job? Or the new fake SIN I need after my latest one gets burned? If you think deeply about how paranoid a professional criminal should be in this setting (with Magic leaving residual trails for hours, matrix actions leaving a log of your activity, DNA evidence screening advancing 60 years in the future), how are they supposed to get by on less than 5k a job?

Just my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

be very careful about when/where you use spells, erase the access log, and don't exist in a DNA database. i'm pretty sure all those things cost nothing.

have you ever known some smart street kids, or been one? uppity middle class housies (that is, people who live in houses, probably most DFers) don't generally know jack about how to get by with little-to-nothing, but your average street-raised runner grew up in a society that forced them to be smart and resourceful just to live day-to-day. some homebum who's willing to stab someone over a half-gallon would leap at the chance to knock somebody off for five grand, methinks

just advocating more punk in cyberpunk.

Amen.

Lets not forget for 20BP you can get 30K a month from chargen. Bar that 5k as the base for wetwork is rather low I mean it's just scraping passable for a low key killing by a rookie. Sure it might be enought to hire some ganger to do it but any one that actually want's to repeatedly assassinate ect it's too low. Also the decryption/encryption costs are wacky Deckers much make a bomb in SR3.

I'd put a good assassination on par with and extraction though may be a bit less and work from there.

Never gotten em to do that in SR. In DnD many moons ago thats exactly what went on for many sessions. It was great fun. I take it you coddle your players by not trying to make them fail.

Punk means living outside the system and in general being a rebel, it doesn't mean being a bum or common thug. It's an attitude and not an amount in your bank account. When you're a world class marksmen, relatively scarce magician or technomancer, etc. you've got options beyond knifing a man for a carton of milk. It's just unrealistic when regular crimes pay far better for a shadowrunner than actually shadowrunning. Look at the prices of cars, a good hacker could trivially hack into and spoof the registration of any car parked on the street, have it drive itself to a fence and then repeat, with no risk to himself. Even selling the stolen cars at a fraction of their value he'd be rolling in thousands of nuyen. It's not even a major crime, just grand theft auto, and he doesn't piss off any major corporations or syndicates, etc. Hell a magician wouldn't even need to resort to crime. Refined reagents are valued at twice as much as Raw reagents. Just buy raw reagents, in one day enchant them into refined reagents and sell. You could keep some refined reagents in circulation so in 28 days you have radical reagents (4x the cost of raw) to sell as well, it only requires checking on every 8 hours so plenty of time to keep enchanting the raw into refined.

Haven't GM'd Shadowrun yet but in Dungeons and Dragons I wouldn't "coddle" anyone, how does having a reward that's appropriate for the risk in any way coddle them? It's just realistic. If you have a plot in mind where X wants your players to do Y, he should offer them a valid reason to actually do it. I'm not saying going "off script" is bad, I'm saying you shouldn't expect players to actually do anything they wouldn't in reality if you are even remotely interested in whatever general plot you've put together. IMO you should consider what your players are, and in Shadowrun we're talking amazingly talented criminal mercenaries.

My runners (30 karma-ish total each) don't get out of bed for less than 5K/each.

Character gen nuyen represents all that you have bought in your life and keep with you, so divide that by years of life and lifestyle before you had to do runs, or by the fact that you might have had windfall runs or stole that equipment. If you look around your house and tally up the worth of everything you own, I think it will make things clear.

All right, this is how I see it: I'll use the basic outline of an NPC history to stress it.


"You're corp PR, and you're good. You're top of the food chain, living the high life in the fast lane with more money than some small governments. If you wanted to, you could actually swim in a pool of antique dollar bills. You were funding some side projects that you're pretty sure your Mega doesn't know about, specifically that a company you mostly own is going to go AA with Extraterritoriality in a month. You own 60% shares in the company and have plans.

The year is 2064. You think it's going to be a good year, even if it is unseasonably cold. Deus ex machina has another plan for the year, with things going pretty well for him too at first. The Crash occurs. You're lucky: you were just outside the corp building when it happened. When the smoke settles, you try to get into your house. The doors won't open. They don't recognize you anymore. You go to your friend, right next store. You tell him your problem. He listens to you, then calls security, who boots you out. Turns out he wanted your job anyways, and you're not in the records anymore.

You're on the streets now. You got some money in your pocket, some expensive ware in your body, and a nice suit. You're still addicted to gambling, but you don't have the money to support your habit anymore. You got a few choices as a skilled SINless with strong CorpFu: you can apply at a Bunraku Parlor and never have to worry about free thought ever again, since they'll just slot some Personafix BTL into you and sculpt you a little. Eh, wouldn't take much to make you look like Nadja Davier, even if you are male. Most metas haven't seen her up close, and the ignorant think all elves look girly anyways. You could go Running, try to climb your way back up, pay for your habits. As well as upkeep for the wares you took with you as severance pay, since those weren't on record anymore either.

You're pretty sure you're going to go with runner. Bunraku is tempting: at least you'd forget about your daughter, who came to the streets with you and ended up broken down into base proteins for a Soya product since at least someone remembered your debts. You're pretty terrified to eat anything soya these days, always wondering if it's her. But then you wouldn't get back at your friend that way, would you?

So you go into running, where once you were a Johnson. You think up a tag that'll work for you, a street name to separate you from your past so you can knife the chummer who didn't back you when you finally get close to him. You know that, as a SINless with no rights whatsoever, you got to be careful, keep to the Shadows and stay cheap so you don't piss off a Johnson who pays big. If they pay big, they're probably just going to call Lonestar and say you stole the money, give a description, maybe have a mage handy so they can mark you. There goes your money. You could get a house, but it needs to be illegal. That's going to cost more.

You could just go with basic street crime, but then you'll never get out. You could fence cars, but then you piss off someone who runs a business in the district who thought it up first. Oops. They kill your fence, turn the market against you for a bit. Relations sour. Guess its back to doing runs and sleeping under bridges. Rob a bank? No, LS or KE would catch you in a heartbeat to bolster their image. Or a team would be hired to get rid of you.

So you still got a gambling problem. You still avoid nutrasoy, cuz you're pretty sure you see your daughter's smile in that steak flavor. You keep what you kill and work your way up. Real estate is still an issue. You can't decide if you want the beachfront property that comes with a lovely view of lava fields in the south with free ash choked air to breath in, or the shattered remnants of Redmond where the gangs will eat you up. Maybe you could spare enough Nuyen to live large again if you could get a good SIN. Call in some favors. Maybe the group could chip money together, save up for that wiz gear that was in the market.

Heh, maybe those management tactical and strategical lair sessions will come in handy after all. Just get them to prioritize and you may have something... oh, and sell the pegasus. He was a waste of money anyways. Er, and stop by the casino."



If you're a crook, you won't make full price. Bosses keep grunts in line by paying them little and giving power out to people they trust. If you fence cars, you'll get a percent if you aren't a boss. Great, you did work, good grunt, go do it again. Oh damn, Black IC in the car this time. Pity.

If Shadowrunning paid metric tonnes of money in a certain world where things did not change then wageslaves would do it. Autosofts, skillwires. So what if you're a professional? Five minutes, so is Larry Jo Nobody. Or close to anyways. Natural talent from SINless people might be cheaper though. If they aren't go to their competition. Does a Johnson really want to pay 200k to a group when he could take a chance with another that will do the same job for 60k?

In some games, the answer is yes. By the way the setting goes, I notice a distinct focus on a lack of glamor and high payouts, where the more clever you are the better you'll do. Some are harder than others: why is a mage not employed? Well, the player better come up with a reason because in many cases they'd be snatched up and given a SIN so they can be a proper mindless wage zombie.

Why is a Technomancer not rich? Well gee, that's not hard: everyone still hates the new kids on the block.

Some GMs will want more money for their group. Others will want less. Personally, I think less is more. When you earn the windfall jobs and earn the big bucks, you really felt like you earned it.

well, if you want to play a game where you sit around and sell crap all the time, more power to you. maybe when you run into a problem that you can't enchant your way out of, you can use some of that money to HIRE SOMEBODY TO TAKE CARE OF THE PROBLEM FOR YOU.

and maybe, if you're lucky, the person you hire, through whatever events life has thrown their way, will be a less privileged member of society who is willing to work for less but whose lessened social status provides some benefit that allows them to run around in the shadows of normal society, a niche that they realize they can occupy to make a living of their own. wow, that almost sounds like the premise for a good GAME - i mean, that game won't have as much MONEY being thrown around as something like Monopoly, but it sounds like it MIGHT just be a little bit more fun. i shall call it... DARKNESS SPRINT!!!!!!1111one

For the record, that list is from the 2nd and 3rd editions of Runner's Companion. And it's meant to be per-runner.

However, that's also meant to be a baseline. Give as much or as little as you'd like depending on how rich/starving you want your group to be. And, of course, better runners are going to be able to command higher prices based upon their rep and noobs no one knows about aren't going to be able to command that much.

Exactly this. Thank you.

That is an assumption of the silliest kind. I would never assume any players are talented. When they can make off with the paydata + a few other prototypes + some other data to sell to someone else once they find a buyer + everything from the security team's armory, they can start making some real fken money. If all they can do is pull of a simple assassination, guard someone, destroy something or any other simple crap off that list then the players haven't earned squat.

Well, I'd assume they're talented by virtue of becoming Shadowrunners. Just not exceptional Shadowrunners in the beginning, since they would be compared to Assets Inc and the like.

Why? until they show they can do a run and get away clean their just punks and should be paid as such.

Well, they will be paid as such, but by virtue of starting with 400 battlepoints they actually are better than most initial characters, as it is noted that only prime runners use the same build system. By in game perception, they would be seen as the same until they prove themselves, but they are actually more talented, by natural skill, than your common joe.

better stats does not a talented runner make.

Technically, yes it does. If a man has higher logic, he is smarter than a man who has lower logic. Ergo, he is more talented in that field. Mind, a player does not need to spend the BP wisely, but it does mean that a player is of a higher caliber than your common thug. He should not test this by attempting to take on a gang single-handedly, nor should it replace player thinking.

But it does make them talented in comparison to other individuals, like players with character classes in D&D as opposed to NPC class levels, such as commoner. If you replace that with skillsofts, money, good equipment, that is a different matter, but actual talent does in fact come down to build points.

Mind, this is an opinion.

I equate runner = player + character

a well stated character is only half a runner. If the players suck hard enough to start a Harley then they are not talented runners. Just well stated suckers.

Then that will have to be a difference of opinion on our part, Daylen. While I agree that the players play the other half, one can waste their talents even when they have them.

/shrug. If you consider a 400 BP starting character "fresh off the boat", that's fine. I figure starting runners have been around the block a few times. I guess I just disagree with the premise of "This is a cyberpunk game, everyone is in the gutter and it's impossible to climb your way out". What's the presumed karma level per run, 10 or so? The main way that your samurai and hacker characters are going to advance is through gear. If you're fine keeping everyone around the same power level the entire game that's fine, but I would think most players would have some reasonable expectation of improving their characters over time.

And would in fact often use that as the very point to run. I like a good challenge for PCs, but impossibility is certainly not my cup of tea.

if by "advance" you mean "buy new things," yes. money doesn't advance a story, or advance personal character development, or advance the process of bonding between friends.

i could give a flying fsck about what rewards my character gets in game, as long as the game is fun and interesting. if your only interest in a game is having the biggest, baddest toys, then consider being a GM instead of a player. i heard a rumor once that the GMs are allowed to use and do whatever they please (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I've always looked at 400BP as "fresh to the shadows". They've graduated out of their gang, they've gotten their corpsec/military training and bolted for the shadows, etc. They've experienced enough life to have some skills, but they have no rep (outside of contacts/enemies they got via BP) and just made it to the pros after being amateurs.