I noticed that a lot of threads in Dumpshock's history ask the question "How much does a basic run cost?"

I was looking through one of the many books that I recently inherited, the 3rd edition Shadowrun Companion, and found a table that covers expected starting prices in the market.

Run
Assassination 5,000
Bodyguard/Security 200 /day
Burglary 2,000
Courier Run 1,000
Datasteal 20% value of the data
Distraction 1,000
Destruction 5,000
Enforcement 1,000
Encryption/Decryption 200 per MP
Extraction 20,000
Hacking 1,000 * Host's Security Value
Investigation 200/day
Smuggling Run 5,000

As stated, those were presented as the base prices that a Runner might expect when they are asked, and could be negotiated up. They do not take into account important information, such as whether or not the Johnson is downplaying the job, the reputation of the characters, or if a certain job is more popular and thus less expensive in a certain city. However, it might act as a good baseline for those who seem to ask this question all the time.

at those rates players probably couldn't afford the high priced and high avail gear that the railroad GMs dislike so much. Course those are also not very epic rates.

Yeah those are pretty pathetic rates, especially if their supposed to be for the whole team and not per person.

Those are 3rd Edition prices, you have to factor in 20 years of Inflation!

They must be per person. Otherwise a team of 4 bodyguards cannot even afford a low lifestyle while working 7/7, without even talking about expenses. At this price, better work at the stuffershack.

so with a team of 5 they should be paid the full value of the datasteal?

Also, it is traditionally a high tech low life game.

I think an important factor towards run payment is how often should your runners expect to get jobs? Presume for a moment the standard starting runner is living in a Low-Lifestyle. Let's also presume that 1/3rd of their income is spent on that. So that's 6,000 a month in income, with 4,000 spent towards other items. So if they're getting 2 jobs a month, that's an average payout of somewhere around 3,000 . It seems low, but these are starting runners, so they shouldn't be paid all that much.

Once they get some experience under their belt, they can upgrade to a middle lifestyle. Same situation; 15,000 a month in income, 7,500 per job if they're getting 2 jobs a month, and so on and so forth.

The real issue is balancing "rewards" among all your players. Mages need karma, gun bunnies need cred.

I am just curious... For a Datasteal, of the highly experimental research data, that is worth Billions to the Developing Corporation (and its rivals if they can get their hands on it), are you really going to pay the team 20% of its value? I am pretty sure that you are not...

Lets see... something with a simple value of 1 Billion Nuyen...
20 % of that will net you 200 Million in value... Woohoo... time to retire...

Just Sayin

Of course, this is not a run you give to green characters either, as it will be a heavily defended "Zero Zone" type of facility with excessive, and very obsessive, security. My guess is that you are going to pay a significant value (maybe a couple of Million to the team), but nothing near what the data is actually worth. And that presupposes that the team will actually live through the encounter.

Anyways...

actually 20% is probably way too high in general. I would expect 5% and less to be more the norm.

4 players in need of payment of at least 5k each = 20k
at a 1% rate that means the lowest value data they will go after is 2M nY. which is not really going to be the most closely held information around. especially for AA and AAA corps.

I think one thing people overlook in the theoretical billion dollar data steal is it's seldom that simple. 1 Prototype seldom equals all the files your going to need and a complete loss for the company. Anything with even million dollar value is not just going to rely on physical security but decentralization, if for no other reason then efficiency of scale.

decentralization? have you ever worked on an engineering project?

My thought is that it would be 20% of the value that the Johnson would make on the steal, rather than the full worth. A run group never gets paid for full value of their services, or they would retire very quickly. No, they are paid bottom dollar as a Johnson tries to find the best, cheapest team to fulfill a given need.

The amounts are incredibly small, but then as pointed out it is the basement bin price before negotiations. After negotiations it should probably get much higher, but these are for green teams and, more importantly, green GMs before they start throwing numbers people on these boards are probably more useful. It works well as a starting point for low rep characters. Optionally, if you treat these as profit rather than end price you then have to figure in how much the Johnson pays for prepwork, then account for player ingenuity, such as their taking cyber'd bodies with them or stealing the lobsters from a fishing installation that Terrafirst! had a team hit to sell later.

The book also states that a normal Shadowrun group will average a run a month, partly due to setup. Mileage may vary, even just based on the situations and Johnsons. This also doesn't account for runs the group instigates itself to make ends meet.

Obviously, the numbers are not my personal opinion: just what I found. And as DrZaius pointed out, they may be a little outdated and worked upwards. Still, good starting point.

The real problem with ridiculously low payment is, why would the Shadowrunners do these jobs instead of just robbing banks or any other typical heist film plots? Even out of chargen they're highly skilled and well equipped individuals who could just tell Mr. J to go fuck himself and (depending on their abilities) do anything from hijack an armored car to crazy Ocean's 11 casino nonsense.

Yeah if thats per team then a member of a five person crew fould earn a lousy 4k a month, assuming they got to make a extraction as their monthly run every month.

then I sure hope you like players using only the best gear and lots of it.

Actually I think it mostly shows that the way for runners to make some cash is not the mundane type stuff. Instead its data theft and that type of job.

well i hope you like your players living in cardport boxes and eating out of garbage bins.
Me i actually like that my character would earn enought to pay her 10k a month lifestyle expenses, considering thats the reason she runs the shadows.

Depends on the bank, I think. If it is a front for a syndicate or Mega, then that causes problems. If they rob banks, they're probably going to get the public eye pretty quickly and lose out on future jobs, while also getting Lonestar and KE on them much faster, who will likely eventually outgun them. Possibly hire other teams to improve their image.

It's called Shadowrun for a reason, after all. Again, this works for low rep characters. For old hat, you'd be going for higher jobs and higher pay, with Johnson's willing to pay more. With higher rep, you'd get more dice to triple the price at negotiation, or even set your own starting prices. The problem with being public is being a celebrity, like FastJack. Which makes you a target for everyone, including runners who want a name.

Of course, that is an example of Runner making their own jobs. There is nothing stopping any team from saying sod off to all Johnsons and trying to start a gang. Until they run into consequences.

As an aside, in a more current book the prices range from 1000 per player, to a job by a governor that pays 5000 a day to help his career along. Said book also tries to show a number of ways to get jobs and pay in swag or favors, or nothing at all. Seems to support the 'Shadowrunners get paid squat' argument, at least as far as the designers were concerned. GM to GM, that is going to be very different I think.

Perhaps it would help if people would put their own tables down, then an average can be weighed out by the players on this board, thus simulating a real number rather than a quick note in a book?

Those figures are not small. they are perfectly ok. BUT of course they are estimated minimum, and in some cases, average numbers.

For example: Assassination 5.000 is what you pay a man to shoot the cheating wife in the face and get her body to the ghouls while you are on the golf course. It is of course NOT what you pay a team of highly specialized psychopaths to shoot down a dragon and saw its head off to bring it to you.

The 200 per day for a bodyguard job are per person (I even payed them as "Specialists" the insane rate of 250 per day + free medical, room and board... but that deal is not for all and forever)

Also: Yeah, they might be greedy assholes (the runners) and try to squeeze every nuyen out of you (johnson). BUT you and every man with power are working on keeping pressure up in the shadows, and no one WANTS the damn psychoes to be rich and living the good life. YOU WANT them to be poor, desperate, barely able to buy upgrades to be more effective but never able to retire. If they would... who would you hire then? AND YOU WOULD HAVE TO endure those HORRIBLE people at the dinner parties if they were rich *g*.

Also: a normal factory worker is not getting 5.000 a month for normal life style, hell most won't even get 2.000 for low. You want them to be poor, desperate and breed the new generation of slaves... ummm workers. There are rules for shared lifestyle not without reason. It is enough if man and wife earn barely enough to pay low.

The trouble with some of the listed payments being so low is that it clashes with the fact that, paid like that, those wired-to-the-max street samurai would have never been able to afford all of that wiz 'ware in the first place. Hell, even one-use or regularly discarded things like nanopaste disguises and fake SINs are pretty damn expensive, and that's not getting into damaged 'ware or trashed drones and vehicles.

I prefer to think of shadowrunners as people who get paid a lot, but also have lots of overhead. Think Cowboy Beebop, where they have a friggin' space ship, but after repairs and other costs, all they can afford to eat is fried greens. The insultingly low payments only make sense for the neophyte runners at the very bottom rungs of the ladder. Which is more a matter of play style than build points - for 400 points, you can make a starting runner or a scary fragger equally well.

If I run a traditional game then yes I do want the fear of the alley in their minds. If the players want a high lifestyle and enough cred to buy gear, they better earn it and not with easy inflated prices but by out maneuvering and outsmarting me as the DM.

A lot of Runners who have expensive wares often didn't buy it themselves or took it as payment for the job, rather than money. As an option. Otherwise, I agree that a lot of money will go into overhead costs.

Again, I suggest people throw out their own numbers, even just from examples in their game.

The jobs Mr. Johnson is offering you are also against other syndicates/corporations, either way you're going into a very dangerous situation and there's no one who's going to do that for pocket change.

Also, based on chargen it's 1:2,500 Karma:nuyen right? So if you award 5,000 nuyen per person are you also giving 2 Karma per person? While I'm not saying these two should be in that kind of exact ratio at all times, it still seems out of line under these proposed values. Who cares if your players can afford high end guns and gadgets. It's things like cyberware that really hit the pocketbook and deltaware anything is expensive as hell.



Ok but the easiest way to "outsmart" you is to say "No" to everything you've planned and go rob ANYTHING. Or kidnap someone. Or hell just mug people in the good part of town, anyone can wire money from their commlinks right on the street, have them deposit a few thousand in a onetime account or they get shot in the face.

average 7k per run per player with usually 1 run per month.

Unless you have no options left, like most SINless. I feel a lot of the game focuses on people starting with hard luck. Besides, you can make a lot of profit by extorting people, threatening landlords, what have you. That will get you in trouble too, but let's face it: runners are criminals. They are not entitled to any amount. They have to fight for it. Sadly, though, that is an argument of style. Perhaps you prefer richer games, and that is fine too.

Basically, when a Johnson hires you he hires you to do things quietly in many cases, unless the job is meant to be explosive. It is only a foolish team that let's itself be identified when they do such a job though.



Mm, remember that left over Nuyen from generation is not directly translated to starting Nuyen. It's up to the GM and player to figure out how they got their wares: the generator is hardly a realistic measurement by which to judge the payouts or how much Nuyen is worth. If you want the setting's idea of human worth, for instance, it is noted that a meta's body is roughly 600 nuyen in chop shops, not counting wares, due to easy to clone O type.

You aren't really meant to get Delaware right out the door from the first job, or even the sixth. You could steal from a high end factory and make a ton of money while keeping some for yourself, but that is a different matter. The old paradox: you have to be good to get the high pay, but you need the high pay to get good.




And a lot of that money can be tracked. That's why they have the traditions with Shadowruns: easier to cashout, less public crime that will make people look into your business.

Thank you Daylen. I'll start collecting the data.

Hm hm.. examples are fine. To explain my game: Playing SR4, Full 20a rules, all erratas etc. I myself STILL prefer 3rd edition, and try to hammer the old style at least a bit into that game. Players started with 400 BP, about half are reasonable good, half are overspecialized. (about 5 characters ingame)

A normal short run between adventures based on the background or "big jobs" will maybe yield about 20.000-to-30.000 Nuyen, will take maybe one-two days legwork and an evening real work. Low risk, if all keep their shit together.

They are doing a line of missions for one "unkown mysterious johnson ™" who sponsored the team (and others) but the missions are more dangerous. (They could handle it so far with zero casualties) Payment was 100.000 for the first one (testing run, advance was only 10.000), 120.000 PLUS military armor for all teammembers (was needed to run around in that radiation... don't ask) for the second one. The Armor alone was priced easily 15.000-25.000 per character)

After that an "offer" (which they shouldn't refuse) came from the russian mob which were fighting with some other mysterious organisation in my setting: The runner SHOULD really do what we ask, payment was 3.000 per person, if i remember right, and it was asked pretty much to murder three people AND sabotage an operation. Of course my players didn't take it, but that is alright... opens door for other hooks.

I just concluded one adventure based on the background of one of the runners where they got away (they worked pretty much for free, but an opportunity came up) with 10.000 per person, and one PRICELESS ARTIFACT ™, where, if they would just melt it down and sell the orichalcum used in its construction they might get rich. (about four units = 200.000 base value)

Problem is: it's a damn priceless artifact... and what does it do? Overall i am giving a mix of "too low... but eh, something is better than nothing" and "OH MY GOD, we have to do this job", but i always expect them to know when to say: NO, or when to use an opportunity to make cash from unusual sources. Also they can loot a lot. Everything you equip your opposition with, MIGHT find their way into the hands of the players. Power Foci, Weapon Foci, exotic armor and weapons, credsticks and numbers and passwords for open numbered accounts, laundered money. MANY opportunities to earn on the side WHILE on a job.

If you think about the run payouts too much the wheels come off on the setting. What does my 2,000 a month "lifestyle" cost? Just my apartment with a good bolt? What about the new firearms I need after I shot somebody on the job? Or the new fake SIN I need after my latest one gets burned? If you think deeply about how paranoid a professional criminal should be in this setting (with Magic leaving residual trails for hours, matrix actions leaving a log of your activity, DNA evidence screening advancing 60 years in the future), how are they supposed to get by on less than 5k a job?

Just my 2

be very careful about when/where you use spells, erase the access log, and don't exist in a DNA database. i'm pretty sure all those things cost nothing.

have you ever known some smart street kids, or been one? uppity middle class housies (that is, people who live in houses, probably most DFers) don't generally know jack about how to get by with little-to-nothing, but your average street-raised runner grew up in a society that forced them to be smart and resourceful just to live day-to-day. some homebum who's willing to stab someone over a half-gallon would leap at the chance to knock somebody off for five grand, methinks

just advocating more punk in cyberpunk.

Amen.

Lets not forget for 20BP you can get 30K a month from chargen. Bar that 5k as the base for wetwork is rather low I mean it's just scraping passable for a low key killing by a rookie. Sure it might be enought to hire some ganger to do it but any one that actually want's to repeatedly assassinate ect it's too low. Also the decryption/encryption costs are wacky Deckers much make a bomb in SR3.

I'd put a good assassination on par with and extraction though may be a bit less and work from there.

Never gotten em to do that in SR. In DnD many moons ago thats exactly what went on for many sessions. It was great fun. I take it you coddle your players by not trying to make them fail.

Punk means living outside the system and in general being a rebel, it doesn't mean being a bum or common thug. It's an attitude and not an amount in your bank account. When you're a world class marksmen, relatively scarce magician or technomancer, etc. you've got options beyond knifing a man for a carton of milk. It's just unrealistic when regular crimes pay far better for a shadowrunner than actually shadowrunning. Look at the prices of cars, a good hacker could trivially hack into and spoof the registration of any car parked on the street, have it drive itself to a fence and then repeat, with no risk to himself. Even selling the stolen cars at a fraction of their value he'd be rolling in thousands of nuyen. It's not even a major crime, just grand theft auto, and he doesn't piss off any major corporations or syndicates, etc. Hell a magician wouldn't even need to resort to crime. Refined reagents are valued at twice as much as Raw reagents. Just buy raw reagents, in one day enchant them into refined reagents and sell. You could keep some refined reagents in circulation so in 28 days you have radical reagents (4x the cost of raw) to sell as well, it only requires checking on every 8 hours so plenty of time to keep enchanting the raw into refined.

Haven't GM'd Shadowrun yet but in Dungeons and Dragons I wouldn't "coddle" anyone, how does having a reward that's appropriate for the risk in any way coddle them? It's just realistic. If you have a plot in mind where X wants your players to do Y, he should offer them a valid reason to actually do it. I'm not saying going "off script" is bad, I'm saying you shouldn't expect players to actually do anything they wouldn't in reality if you are even remotely interested in whatever general plot you've put together. IMO you should consider what your players are, and in Shadowrun we're talking amazingly talented criminal mercenaries.

My runners (30 karma-ish total each) don't get out of bed for less than 5K/each.

Character gen nuyen represents all that you have bought in your life and keep with you, so divide that by years of life and lifestyle before you had to do runs, or by the fact that you might have had windfall runs or stole that equipment. If you look around your house and tally up the worth of everything you own, I think it will make things clear.

All right, this is how I see it: I'll use the basic outline of an NPC history to stress it.


"You're corp PR, and you're good. You're top of the food chain, living the high life in the fast lane with more money than some small governments. If you wanted to, you could actually swim in a pool of antique dollar bills. You were funding some side projects that you're pretty sure your Mega doesn't know about, specifically that a company you mostly own is going to go AA with Extraterritoriality in a month. You own 60% shares in the company and have plans.

The year is 2064. You think it's going to be a good year, even if it is unseasonably cold. Deus ex machina has another plan for the year, with things going pretty well for him too at first. The Crash occurs. You're lucky: you were just outside the corp building when it happened. When the smoke settles, you try to get into your house. The doors won't open. They don't recognize you anymore. You go to your friend, right next store. You tell him your problem. He listens to you, then calls security, who boots you out. Turns out he wanted your job anyways, and you're not in the records anymore.

You're on the streets now. You got some money in your pocket, some expensive ware in your body, and a nice suit. You're still addicted to gambling, but you don't have the money to support your habit anymore. You got a few choices as a skilled SINless with strong CorpFu: you can apply at a Bunraku Parlor and never have to worry about free thought ever again, since they'll just slot some Personafix BTL into you and sculpt you a little. Eh, wouldn't take much to make you look like Nadja Davier, even if you are male. Most metas haven't seen her up close, and the ignorant think all elves look girly anyways. You could go Running, try to climb your way back up, pay for your habits. As well as upkeep for the wares you took with you as severance pay, since those weren't on record anymore either.

You're pretty sure you're going to go with runner. Bunraku is tempting: at least you'd forget about your daughter, who came to the streets with you and ended up broken down into base proteins for a Soya product since at least someone remembered your debts. You're pretty terrified to eat anything soya these days, always wondering if it's her. But then you wouldn't get back at your friend that way, would you?

So you go into running, where once you were a Johnson. You think up a tag that'll work for you, a street name to separate you from your past so you can knife the chummer who didn't back you when you finally get close to him. You know that, as a SINless with no rights whatsoever, you got to be careful, keep to the Shadows and stay cheap so you don't piss off a Johnson who pays big. If they pay big, they're probably just going to call Lonestar and say you stole the money, give a description, maybe have a mage handy so they can mark you. There goes your money. You could get a house, but it needs to be illegal. That's going to cost more.

You could just go with basic street crime, but then you'll never get out. You could fence cars, but then you piss off someone who runs a business in the district who thought it up first. Oops. They kill your fence, turn the market against you for a bit. Relations sour. Guess its back to doing runs and sleeping under bridges. Rob a bank? No, LS or KE would catch you in a heartbeat to bolster their image. Or a team would be hired to get rid of you.

So you still got a gambling problem. You still avoid nutrasoy, cuz you're pretty sure you see your daughter's smile in that steak flavor. You keep what you kill and work your way up. Real estate is still an issue. You can't decide if you want the beachfront property that comes with a lovely view of lava fields in the south with free ash choked air to breath in, or the shattered remnants of Redmond where the gangs will eat you up. Maybe you could spare enough Nuyen to live large again if you could get a good SIN. Call in some favors. Maybe the group could chip money together, save up for that wiz gear that was in the market.

Heh, maybe those management tactical and strategical lair sessions will come in handy after all. Just get them to prioritize and you may have something... oh, and sell the pegasus. He was a waste of money anyways. Er, and stop by the casino."



If you're a crook, you won't make full price. Bosses keep grunts in line by paying them little and giving power out to people they trust. If you fence cars, you'll get a percent if you aren't a boss. Great, you did work, good grunt, go do it again. Oh damn, Black IC in the car this time. Pity.

If Shadowrunning paid metric tonnes of money in a certain world where things did not change then wageslaves would do it. Autosofts, skillwires. So what if you're a professional? Five minutes, so is Larry Jo Nobody. Or close to anyways. Natural talent from SINless people might be cheaper though. If they aren't go to their competition. Does a Johnson really want to pay 200k to a group when he could take a chance with another that will do the same job for 60k?

In some games, the answer is yes. By the way the setting goes, I notice a distinct focus on a lack of glamor and high payouts, where the more clever you are the better you'll do. Some are harder than others: why is a mage not employed? Well, the player better come up with a reason because in many cases they'd be snatched up and given a SIN so they can be a proper mindless wage zombie.

Why is a Technomancer not rich? Well gee, that's not hard: everyone still hates the new kids on the block.

Some GMs will want more money for their group. Others will want less. Personally, I think less is more. When you earn the windfall jobs and earn the big bucks, you really felt like you earned it.

well, if you want to play a game where you sit around and sell crap all the time, more power to you. maybe when you run into a problem that you can't enchant your way out of, you can use some of that money to HIRE SOMEBODY TO TAKE CARE OF THE PROBLEM FOR YOU.

and maybe, if you're lucky, the person you hire, through whatever events life has thrown their way, will be a less privileged member of society who is willing to work for less but whose lessened social status provides some benefit that allows them to run around in the shadows of normal society, a niche that they realize they can occupy to make a living of their own. wow, that almost sounds like the premise for a good GAME - i mean, that game won't have as much MONEY being thrown around as something like Monopoly, but it sounds like it MIGHT just be a little bit more fun. i shall call it... DARKNESS SPRINT!!!!!!1111one

For the record, that list is from the 2nd and 3rd editions of Runner's Companion. And it's meant to be per-runner.

However, that's also meant to be a baseline. Give as much or as little as you'd like depending on how rich/starving you want your group to be. And, of course, better runners are going to be able to command higher prices based upon their rep and noobs no one knows about aren't going to be able to command that much.

Exactly this. Thank you.

That is an assumption of the silliest kind. I would never assume any players are talented. When they can make off with the paydata + a few other prototypes + some other data to sell to someone else once they find a buyer + everything from the security team's armory, they can start making some real fken money. If all they can do is pull of a simple assassination, guard someone, destroy something or any other simple crap off that list then the players haven't earned squat.

Well, I'd assume they're talented by virtue of becoming Shadowrunners. Just not exceptional Shadowrunners in the beginning, since they would be compared to Assets Inc and the like.

Why? until they show they can do a run and get away clean their just punks and should be paid as such.

Well, they will be paid as such, but by virtue of starting with 400 battlepoints they actually are better than most initial characters, as it is noted that only prime runners use the same build system. By in game perception, they would be seen as the same until they prove themselves, but they are actually more talented, by natural skill, than your common joe.

better stats does not a talented runner make.

Technically, yes it does. If a man has higher logic, he is smarter than a man who has lower logic. Ergo, he is more talented in that field. Mind, a player does not need to spend the BP wisely, but it does mean that a player is of a higher caliber than your common thug. He should not test this by attempting to take on a gang single-handedly, nor should it replace player thinking.

But it does make them talented in comparison to other individuals, like players with character classes in D&D as opposed to NPC class levels, such as commoner. If you replace that with skillsofts, money, good equipment, that is a different matter, but actual talent does in fact come down to build points.

Mind, this is an opinion.

I equate runner = player + character

a well stated character is only half a runner. If the players suck hard enough to start a Harley then they are not talented runners. Just well stated suckers.

Then that will have to be a difference of opinion on our part, Daylen. While I agree that the players play the other half, one can waste their talents even when they have them.

/shrug. If you consider a 400 BP starting character "fresh off the boat", that's fine. I figure starting runners have been around the block a few times. I guess I just disagree with the premise of "This is a cyberpunk game, everyone is in the gutter and it's impossible to climb your way out". What's the presumed karma level per run, 10 or so? The main way that your samurai and hacker characters are going to advance is through gear. If you're fine keeping everyone around the same power level the entire game that's fine, but I would think most players would have some reasonable expectation of improving their characters over time.

And would in fact often use that as the very point to run. I like a good challenge for PCs, but impossibility is certainly not my cup of tea.

if by "advance" you mean "buy new things," yes. money doesn't advance a story, or advance personal character development, or advance the process of bonding between friends.

i could give a flying fsck about what rewards my character gets in game, as long as the game is fun and interesting. if your only interest in a game is having the biggest, baddest toys, then consider being a GM instead of a player. i heard a rumor once that the GMs are allowed to use and do whatever they please

I've always looked at 400BP as "fresh to the shadows". They've graduated out of their gang, they've gotten their corpsec/military training and bolted for the shadows, etc. They've experienced enough life to have some skills, but they have no rep (outside of contacts/enemies they got via BP) and just made it to the pros after being amateurs.