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> Regarding payment, Found a table in a book with recommendations
Inpu
post Jul 18 2010, 03:39 PM
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I noticed that a lot of threads in Dumpshock's history ask the question "How much does a basic run cost?"

I was looking through one of the many books that I recently inherited, the 3rd edition Shadowrun Companion, and found a table that covers expected starting prices in the market.

Run
Assassination 5,000
Bodyguard/Security 200 /day
Burglary 2,000
Courier Run 1,000
Datasteal 20% value of the data
Distraction 1,000
Destruction 5,000
Enforcement 1,000
Encryption/Decryption 200 per MP
Extraction 20,000
Hacking 1,000 * Host's Security Value
Investigation 200/day
Smuggling Run 5,000

As stated, those were presented as the base prices that a Runner might expect when they are asked, and could be negotiated up. They do not take into account important information, such as whether or not the Johnson is downplaying the job, the reputation of the characters, or if a certain job is more popular and thus less expensive in a certain city. However, it might act as a good baseline for those who seem to ask this question all the time.
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Daylen
post Jul 18 2010, 06:18 PM
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at those rates players probably couldn't afford the high priced and high avail gear that the railroad GMs dislike so much. Course those are also not very epic rates.
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Mäx
post Jul 18 2010, 06:20 PM
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Yeah those are pretty pathetic rates, especially if their supposed to be for the whole team and not per person.
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DrZaius
post Jul 18 2010, 06:24 PM
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Those are 3rd Edition prices, you have to factor in 20 years of Inflation! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

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Traul
post Jul 18 2010, 06:25 PM
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They must be per person. Otherwise a team of 4 bodyguards cannot even afford a low lifestyle while working 7/7, without even talking about expenses. At this price, better work at the stuffershack.
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Daylen
post Jul 18 2010, 06:29 PM
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so with a team of 5 they should be paid the full value of the datasteal?

Also, it is traditionally a high tech low life game.
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DrZaius
post Jul 18 2010, 06:37 PM
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I think an important factor towards run payment is how often should your runners expect to get jobs? Presume for a moment the standard starting runner is living in a Low-Lifestyle. Let's also presume that 1/3rd of their income is spent on that. So that's 6,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month in income, with 4,000 spent towards other items. So if they're getting 2 jobs a month, that's an average payout of somewhere around 3,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . It seems low, but these are starting runners, so they shouldn't be paid all that much.

Once they get some experience under their belt, they can upgrade to a middle lifestyle. Same situation; 15,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month in income, 7,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per job if they're getting 2 jobs a month, and so on and so forth.

The real issue is balancing "rewards" among all your players. Mages need karma, gun bunnies need cred.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 18 2010, 06:39 PM
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QUOTE (Daylen @ Jul 18 2010, 11:29 AM) *
so with a team of 5 they should be paid the full value of the datasteal?

Also, it is traditionally a high tech low life game.


I am just curious... For a Datasteal, of the highly experimental research data, that is worth Billions to the Developing Corporation (and its rivals if they can get their hands on it), are you really going to pay the team 20% of its value? I am pretty sure that you are not...

Lets see... something with a simple value of 1 Billion Nuyen...
20 % of that will net you 200 Million in value... Woohoo... time to retire... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Just Sayin

Of course, this is not a run you give to green characters either, as it will be a heavily defended "Zero Zone" type of facility with excessive, and very obsessive, security. My guess is that you are going to pay a significant value (maybe a couple of Million to the team), but nothing near what the data is actually worth. And that presupposes that the team will actually live through the encounter.

Anyways...
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Daylen
post Jul 18 2010, 07:08 PM
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actually 20% is probably way too high in general. I would expect 5% and less to be more the norm.

4 players in need of payment of at least 5k each = 20k
at a 1% rate that means the lowest value data they will go after is 2M nY. which is not really going to be the most closely held information around. especially for AA and AAA corps.
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LurkerOutThere
post Jul 18 2010, 07:17 PM
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I think one thing people overlook in the theoretical billion dollar data steal is it's seldom that simple. 1 Prototype seldom equals all the files your going to need and a complete loss for the company. Anything with even million dollar value is not just going to rely on physical security but decentralization, if for no other reason then efficiency of scale.
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Daylen
post Jul 18 2010, 07:47 PM
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decentralization? have you ever worked on an engineering project?
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Inpu
post Jul 18 2010, 08:28 PM
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My thought is that it would be 20% of the value that the Johnson would make on the steal, rather than the full worth. A run group never gets paid for full value of their services, or they would retire very quickly. No, they are paid bottom dollar as a Johnson tries to find the best, cheapest team to fulfill a given need.

The amounts are incredibly small, but then as pointed out it is the basement bin price before negotiations. After negotiations it should probably get much higher, but these are for green teams and, more importantly, green GMs before they start throwing numbers people on these boards are probably more useful. It works well as a starting point for low rep characters. Optionally, if you treat these as profit rather than end price you then have to figure in how much the Johnson pays for prepwork, then account for player ingenuity, such as their taking cyber'd bodies with them or stealing the lobsters from a fishing installation that Terrafirst! had a team hit to sell later.

The book also states that a normal Shadowrun group will average a run a month, partly due to setup. Mileage may vary, even just based on the situations and Johnsons. This also doesn't account for runs the group instigates itself to make ends meet.

Obviously, the numbers are not my personal opinion: just what I found. And as DrZaius pointed out, they may be a little outdated and worked upwards. Still, good starting point.
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Lanlaorn
post Jul 18 2010, 08:40 PM
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The real problem with ridiculously low payment is, why would the Shadowrunners do these jobs instead of just robbing banks or any other typical heist film plots? Even out of chargen they're highly skilled and well equipped individuals who could just tell Mr. J to go fuck himself and (depending on their abilities) do anything from hijack an armored car to crazy Ocean's 11 casino nonsense.
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Mäx
post Jul 18 2010, 08:47 PM
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Yeah if thats per team then a member of a five person crew fould earn a lousy 4k a month, assuming they got to make a extraction as their monthly run every month.
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Daylen
post Jul 18 2010, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jul 18 2010, 08:40 PM) *
The real problem with ridiculously low payment is, why would the Shadowrunners do these jobs instead of just robbing banks or any other typical heist film plots? Even out of chargen they're highly skilled and well equipped individuals who could just tell Mr. J to go fuck himself and (depending on their abilities) do anything from hijack an armored car to crazy Ocean's 11 casino nonsense.

then I sure hope you like players using only the best gear and lots of it.
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Daylen
post Jul 18 2010, 08:51 PM
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Actually I think it mostly shows that the way for runners to make some cash is not the mundane type stuff. Instead its data theft and that type of job.
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Mäx
post Jul 18 2010, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (Daylen @ Jul 18 2010, 11:49 PM) *
then I sure hope you like players using only the best gear and lots of it.

well i hope you like your players living in cardport boxes and eating out of garbage bins.
Me i actually like that my character would earn enought to pay her 10k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month lifestyle expenses, considering thats the reason she runs the shadows.
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Inpu
post Jul 18 2010, 08:52 PM
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Depends on the bank, I think. If it is a front for a syndicate or Mega, then that causes problems. If they rob banks, they're probably going to get the public eye pretty quickly and lose out on future jobs, while also getting Lonestar and KE on them much faster, who will likely eventually outgun them. Possibly hire other teams to improve their image.

It's called Shadowrun for a reason, after all. Again, this works for low rep characters. For old hat, you'd be going for higher jobs and higher pay, with Johnson's willing to pay more. With higher rep, you'd get more dice to triple the price at negotiation, or even set your own starting prices. The problem with being public is being a celebrity, like FastJack. Which makes you a target for everyone, including runners who want a name.

Of course, that is an example of Runner making their own jobs. There is nothing stopping any team from saying sod off to all Johnsons and trying to start a gang. Until they run into consequences.

As an aside, in a more current book the prices range from 1000 per player, to a job by a governor that pays 5000 a day to help his career along. Said book also tries to show a number of ways to get jobs and pay in swag or favors, or nothing at all. Seems to support the 'Shadowrunners get paid squat' argument, at least as far as the designers were concerned. GM to GM, that is going to be very different I think.

Perhaps it would help if people would put their own tables down, then an average can be weighed out by the players on this board, thus simulating a real number rather than a quick note in a book?
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Summerstorm
post Jul 18 2010, 08:53 PM
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Those figures are not small. they are perfectly ok. BUT of course they are estimated minimum, and in some cases, average numbers.

For example: Assassination 5.000 is what you pay a man to shoot the cheating wife in the face and get her body to the ghouls while you are on the golf course. It is of course NOT what you pay a team of highly specialized psychopaths to shoot down a dragon and saw its head off to bring it to you.

The 200 per day for a bodyguard job are per person (I even payed them as "Specialists" the insane rate of 250 per day + free medical, room and board... but that deal is not for all and forever)

Also: Yeah, they might be greedy assholes (the runners) and try to squeeze every nuyen out of you (johnson). BUT you and every man with power are working on keeping pressure up in the shadows, and no one WANTS the damn psychoes to be rich and living the good life. YOU WANT them to be poor, desperate, barely able to buy upgrades to be more effective but never able to retire. If they would... who would you hire then? AND YOU WOULD HAVE TO endure those HORRIBLE people at the dinner parties if they were rich *g*.

Also: a normal factory worker is not getting 5.000 a month for normal life style, hell most won't even get 2.000 for low. You want them to be poor, desperate and breed the new generation of slaves... ummm workers. There are rules for shared lifestyle not without reason. It is enough if man and wife earn barely enough to pay low.
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Glyph
post Jul 18 2010, 09:03 PM
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The trouble with some of the listed payments being so low is that it clashes with the fact that, paid like that, those wired-to-the-max street samurai would have never been able to afford all of that wiz 'ware in the first place. Hell, even one-use or regularly discarded things like nanopaste disguises and fake SINs are pretty damn expensive, and that's not getting into damaged 'ware or trashed drones and vehicles.

I prefer to think of shadowrunners as people who get paid a lot, but also have lots of overhead. Think Cowboy Beebop, where they have a friggin' space ship, but after repairs and other costs, all they can afford to eat is fried greens. The insultingly low payments only make sense for the neophyte runners at the very bottom rungs of the ladder. Which is more a matter of play style than build points - for 400 points, you can make a starting runner or a scary fragger equally well.
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Daylen
post Jul 18 2010, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 18 2010, 08:51 PM) *
well i hope you like your players living in cardport boxes and eating out of garbage bins.
Me i actually like that my character would earn enought to pay her 10k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month lifestyle expenses, considering thats the reason she runs the shadows.

If I run a traditional game then yes I do want the fear of the alley in their minds. If the players want a high lifestyle and enough cred to buy gear, they better earn it and not with easy inflated prices but by out maneuvering and outsmarting me as the DM.
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Inpu
post Jul 18 2010, 09:06 PM
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A lot of Runners who have expensive wares often didn't buy it themselves or took it as payment for the job, rather than money. As an option. Otherwise, I agree that a lot of money will go into overhead costs.

Again, I suggest people throw out their own numbers, even just from examples in their game.
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Lanlaorn
post Jul 18 2010, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE
Depends on the bank, I think. If it is a front for a syndicate or Mega, then that causes problems. If they rob banks, they're probably going to get the public eye pretty quickly and lose out on future jobs, while also getting Lonestar and KE on them much faster, who will likely eventually outgun them. Possibly hire other teams to improve their image.


The jobs Mr. Johnson is offering you are also against other syndicates/corporations, either way you're going into a very dangerous situation and there's no one who's going to do that for pocket change.

Also, based on chargen it's 1:2,500 Karma:nuyen right? So if you award 5,000 nuyen per person are you also giving 2 Karma per person? While I'm not saying these two should be in that kind of exact ratio at all times, it still seems out of line under these proposed values. Who cares if your players can afford high end guns and gadgets. It's things like cyberware that really hit the pocketbook and deltaware anything is expensive as hell.

QUOTE
If I run a traditional game then yes I do want the fear of the alley in their minds. If the players want a high lifestyle and enough cred to buy gear, they better earn it and not with easy inflated prices but by out maneuvering and outsmarting me as the DM.


Ok but the easiest way to "outsmart" you is to say "No" to everything you've planned and go rob ANYTHING. Or kidnap someone. Or hell just mug people in the good part of town, anyone can wire money from their commlinks right on the street, have them deposit a few thousand in a onetime account or they get shot in the face.
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Daylen
post Jul 18 2010, 09:13 PM
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QUOTE (Inpu @ Jul 18 2010, 09:06 PM) *
A lot of Runners who have expensive wares often didn't buy it themselves or took it as payment for the job, rather than money. As an option. Otherwise, I agree that a lot of money will go into overhead costs.

Again, I suggest people throw out their own numbers, even just from examples in their game.


average 7k per run per player with usually 1 run per month.
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Inpu
post Jul 18 2010, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jul 18 2010, 11:07 PM) *
The jobs Mr. Johnson is offering you are also against other syndicates/corporations, either way you're going into a very dangerous situation and there's no one who's going to do that for pocket change.


Unless you have no options left, like most SINless. I feel a lot of the game focuses on people starting with hard luck. Besides, you can make a lot of profit by extorting people, threatening landlords, what have you. That will get you in trouble too, but let's face it: runners are criminals. They are not entitled to any amount. They have to fight for it. Sadly, though, that is an argument of style. Perhaps you prefer richer games, and that is fine too.

Basically, when a Johnson hires you he hires you to do things quietly in many cases, unless the job is meant to be explosive. It is only a foolish team that let's itself be identified when they do such a job though.

QUOTE
Also, based on chargen it's 1:2,500 Karma:nuyen right? So if you award 5,000 nuyen per person are you also giving 2 Karma per person? While I'm not saying these two should be in that kind of exact ratio at all times, it still seems out of line under these proposed values. Who cares if your players can afford high end guns and gadgets. It's things like cyberware that really hit the pocketbook and deltaware anything is expensive as hell.


Mm, remember that left over Nuyen from generation is not directly translated to starting Nuyen. It's up to the GM and player to figure out how they got their wares: the generator is hardly a realistic measurement by which to judge the payouts or how much Nuyen is worth. If you want the setting's idea of human worth, for instance, it is noted that a meta's body is roughly 600 nuyen in chop shops, not counting wares, due to easy to clone O type.

You aren't really meant to get Delaware right out the door from the first job, or even the sixth. You could steal from a high end factory and make a ton of money while keeping some for yourself, but that is a different matter. The old paradox: you have to be good to get the high pay, but you need the high pay to get good.


QUOTE
Ok but the easiest way to "outsmart" you is to say "No" to everything you've planned and go rob ANYTHING. Or kidnap someone. Or hell just mug people in the good part of town, anyone can wire money from their commlinks right on the street, have them deposit a few thousand in a onetime account or they get shot in the face.


And a lot of that money can be tracked. That's why they have the traditions with Shadowruns: easier to cashout, less public crime that will make people look into your business.

Thank you Daylen. I'll start collecting the data.
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