I've never seen anyone play with non-cumulative recoil, yeah. It's not ambiguous.

Max: Nope, I ignored it, because that's not the only situation you'd use. And yes, +5 AP means that nothing better will happen compared to S&S:

8S DV against full Impact armor +5, versus 6S(e) DV against Half Impact armor.
That's +2 DV and, say, 11 armor, vs. +0 DV and 3 armor. I'd rather have the 8 dice. Even 4 for 1 trading means that precisely *nothing* different will happen from using the flechette, except your target won't take a -2 or roll to resist incapacitation.

It is ambiguous without the example on burst fire combat.

Saying that you get a -2 penalty on the first burst and -3 on the second can legitimately be read as -2/-3 or -2/-5. Without the example on burst combat, both interpretations are valid. Escalating just means that the penalty increases, it does not mean the penalty has to be cumulative. Even worse the rules on recoil say nothing about whether recoil compensation applies separately to each attack. That means that with 2 recoil compensation, you could interpret it as 0/-1 (from -2/-3), 0/-1 (from -2/-5), or 0/-3 (from -2/-5).

It can only be read that way if you're trying to get something for nothing, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But, what I meant is that the question is not ambiguous because we *do* have the example, previous experience, FAQ, etc. Not that someone would be stupid for misinterpreting that sentence all lone.

You do realise where talking about light pistols here, beign as good as S&S is good enought.
So that leaves hold-outs and machinepistols as pretty much the only weapon classes where S&S is truly better then all other options.
And hold-outs dont have that much better range then taser, so i would seriously consider taking that 8S taser instead.

I've shown the rules to some people that have no experience with Shadowrun. Most of them come out thinking the penalty is supposed to be -2/-3 for a short/short. Then I show them the example and they start to get a little confused. The point is, the rules are not clear to someone who has no exposure to the wisdom of the masses (ie dumpshock). The fact that the clarification on how it's supposed to be is in the example is a flaw. Many people won't read examples if they feel they have a strong grasp of how things are supposed to be. The rules regarding recoil penalties and recoil compensation ARE poorly worded and do not effectively convey the intent to a new reader. If that was clear then you wouldn't see so many people asking about recoil and recoil compensation.

Light Pistols, Heavy Pistols, Machine Pistols, Sub machine guns, Assault Rifles, Holdouts. All of these are better off with SnS than any other ammo.

Shotguns and Sniper Rifles are really the only kinds of weapons that don't benefit from SnS over other potential ammo. Oh, and I suppose Heavy and maybe Medium machine guns.

Right, that's what I'm saying: it's not ambiguous *here to us*. As in, for the purposes of this discussion. If you only read that one line, it is. My last post didn't explain that clearly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Max, you're still crazy. S&S is better for all of them (except perhaps Sniper Rifles), because it strikes weaker armor, weaker resistance stat, and always (*always*) gives a -2 (that is, 6 boxes) if it hits… *and* has a chance to incapacitate. I was demonstrating that your Needler was *not* as good as S&S. Not even close.

Sniper Rifles can definitely benefit from SnS against heavy armored opponents. If you're facing someone with 14 Impact armor, I'm pretty sure SnS would be better. 6S + Net Hits + Called Shot against 7 Impact + body damage resist instead of what is probably around 9P + net Hits + called shot against around 21 Ballistic armor + body damage resist. The former will only resist 2-4 damage on average, while the latter will resist 7-9 and you'd be staged down to stun damage with the APDS round.

All weapons benefit from SnS, it's just a matter of how high does the ballistic armor need to get for it to be beneficial.

And, of course, firing S&S from that kind of gun means you get the extreme range. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

One of things about high voltage electricity (like in a shock weapon) is that it shouldn't matter where a person gets hit the electricity is still going to pass throughout the body and have the same effect. Or more to the point. electrical weapons are as effective as the quality's of the electricity and don't care about the skill of the user. So why should it stage up with more hits? If you're having a problem with the balance of electrical based attacks I would house rule that these kinds of attacks don't stage up with net hits, they only ever do their base damage which is a measure of the electricity.

Many people have pointed that out, but it would undoubtedly be a house rule to remove net hits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Possibly a common house rule, and there's nothing wrong with tweaking the game to your needs. I agree that it's a simple and effective option.

I've got the SnS example done. Do people want to see it compared to EXEX, or APDS?

-DrZaius

Ofcource S&S is better if you pull out totally absurb armor values.
"no its totally better on all guns becouse the badguy has an armor value of 28/14"

You know what i rather take the gaus rifle that has AP-half-4.

And the think is you cant take a target down with one sht of S&S and a terget that goes down on 2 most likely goes down from 2 shot of any of the better ammo types from anythink bigger then a light pistol.

Only guy to post anythink resepmling a fact about S&S beign super good only showed that its really isn't better in a sclae that matters.

He specifically said, 'S&S can even be better for a sniper rifle if the target is heavily armored'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's called 'qualifying', and it means your objection is wrong.

The fact is, if you hit anyone with S&S, they take a -2 to everything (=6 wound boxes), and they resist with Willpower (usually lower than Body), Impact armor (usually *much* lower than Ballistic), and that Impact armor is halved, *and* they could fail their 'remain standing and conscious' check.

The stun damage is resisted by (Body + 1/2 Impact Armor). The incapacitation effect is (Body + Willpower + 1/2 Impact Armor) with a threshold of 3.

WTF
Where the hell did you get that idea, no wonder you think S&S is so good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
You always resist damage with Body, unless there are few very special cases that i dont remember right now.

And saying that S&S is better if enemy has armor rating of 28/14 isn't qualifying, thats making up absurd scenarios.

Whoops, I forgot. I was getting a crossed wire from Stunbolt! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Thanks, carry on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It actually changes nothing, because that's the least of the several edges S&S has. Which reminds me, you *are* using your Stun track (that's where Willpower shows up), and it's smaller than Physical. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You make a good point about switching targets. Yeah, the expected value for the given simulation says that switching targets would make you effectively miss those targets. As you gain more points in Pistol skill, those additional targets stop being expected misses, which implies good scaling.

The Fichetti Tiffani Needler hold-out is 6P(f) +2AP in Arsenal, p21. Was that Errata'd somewhere?

Given that 1 armor generally requires 3 hits to bypass, then changing that to an 8P +5AP would give you an extra point of damage. That's still not an Assault Cannon with incapacitate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

And that is the real discussion we're having here, I believe. SnS turns a pair of Pistols (of any size) into a 5R Assault Cannon, with secondary effects.

-----

In the end, I had at least one player throw his hands up and go WTF in response to the ruling I posted on page 3 of this thread. To preserve morale, I've retracted it, even though it was effectively only a max 72 nuyen fine every time he decided to use SnS in a firefight. (The cost to throw away the box, if you only fired one shot, so you can't be traced). I'll keep you guys posted on how the game world evolves, now that SnS reigns supreme. This should be an interesting experiment.

Yes, the +2 AP is a typo.

Regardless, Max, he specifically stated the scenario. As if it matters, because S&S is indisputably better for everything *else*.

The Arsenal errata ofcource.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Umm no, it turns them as good as an assault rifle with explosive rounds(that are cheaper) damage wise.
And as good as heavy pistols with explosive ammo, in the actual take down capasity.

Wrong again, unless you're defining 'actual takedown capacity' in some novel and interesting way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm not sure I follow. Are you measuring in terms of the number of bodies that can be removed in a given IP?

Any pistol with SnS can do 16S in my above simulation (which is crude and extremely limited). Using normal ammo, nothing short of an Assault Cannon approaches this in terms of raw damage, let alone the auto-disorient. I'll leave incapacitate out for a minute.

Hrm. I've updated the sheet again, but without taking into account Burst Modes, it really understates assault rifles.

Before we go further, can you define your measuring metric, so we are talking about the same thing?

Actuall takedown capasity is enemies down per IP.

That's what I thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) S&S wins.

Let's make this a little more specific.

Enemy, for this context:

Body 3
Reaction 3
Willpower 3

Ballistic Armor 10
Impact Armor 8

Physical Condition Monitor 10
Stun Condition Monitor 10

Are these fair assumptions?

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Bah, I don't want to do this anymore. We're getting bogged down in details, and this simulation is going to mostly meaningless until we start varying it in multiple dimensions.

If an enemy has a body+willpower+(half impact) >= 9, then he is expected to resist the first incapacitate. He will need body+willpower+(half impact) >= 11 to resist the incapacitate from the second shot, due to disorient. These are not unreasonable numbers.

What these means is, SnS shines during low-level gameplay due to incapacitate. As the opposition gets stronger, incapacitate becomes more rare, and the other secondary effects become important... disorient is still strong, elemental damage to spirits is powerful, and the expected DV is still very good.

In short, SnS provides stable expected damage values across all power levels for all firearm categories except long range rifles and assault cannons. This obsoletes the need for different pistol categories since they should all use SnS, unless they are highly modified and specialized.