I'm looking for some help from the experts of RAW. SnS rounds are supposed to replace the damage value of the weapon. This makes your 5P pistol a 6S(e) pistol. Do you add net hits to the damage value?

Part of me says yes: A shot in the face is more effective than a shot in the foot.

Part of me says no: Someone with a decent dice pool dual-wielding semi-automatic pistols shouldn't have a baseline damage of 24S(e) + hits every round.

I try to find the answer in the books, but I must be missing a sentence somewhere. Can someone illuminate me on RAW, so I can enforce these rules properly, or at least make a house ruling from a position of understanding?

same question came up on yesterdays' game session

I've been ruling 'no' because that's how I do toxins injected by dart gun. If the attack would have done damage with normal ammo, than the 6S hits. Compare that to dart guns which require TWO net hits to inject their payload, which is regularly narcojet dealing 10S damage with only a Toxin Resistance test to protect you from there. Burst and automatic capabilities should affect it (More ammo is more zaps), and this is where it can get out of hand. Put that ON TOP of net hits from a skilled shooter and everything in the room will be taking naps in seconds.

Wait, so by RAW, burst would add increments of 6S for each bullet, instead of the +1P per bullet from normal ammo? That's... Unwholesome.

I'm really hesitant to house-rule this for unrelated reasons. I'm considering making the ammo highly regulated, and serialized... Like those new Tazer Shotgun rounds. Each bullet has a couple of serial numbers stashed in various places, and every bullet sold is tracked to a distributor. Or, from a pure game mechanic perspective, raise the availability from 5R to something like 16R, and make it so boxes of 10 only show up on rare occassions. That'll make burst SnS infeasible, and make SnS usage at all a special occassion. Much like anti-vehicular rounds... <cough><shifty-eye>

I like the idea of a competent gunslinger being able to walk into a room and drop everyone. I'm also terrified of power-creep, since a previous campaign got out of hand, with me leading the way.

But before I do anything, I want to make sure I completely understand how it's supposed to work by RAW, and if there's any reason why leaving it alone might be a good idea.

not more seperate hits, but would add the regular burst bonus to the DV. Thats how I roll it

Same here... I use burst fire bonuses but not net hits.

With conconductivity its about the same as a SMG. Math time!

Target has an armored jacket
Target is shot by a short burst from a SMG with ExEx. Base Damage is 8P -1 AP. With one net hit target takes 9P -1 AP. With a body of 5 and their 8 Ballistic they they reduce the 9P damage by 4 and suffer 5P.

Target is shot by a short burst from a SMG with SnS. Base Damage is 8S (-half). With one net hit target takes 8S -(half). With a body of 5 and their 6 Impact and their 6 Nonconductivity they take (5+3+6)/3 4S and must make a 'dont tase me bro' test as we like to call it.

When SnS is amazing is against high body targets so they use their typically shorter Stun damage tracks and its great against targets with no nonconductivity or when you need SMG firepower in a tiny package like a Cherry Blossom. Its not nearly as gamebreaking as Narcojet Capsule rounds which are unbelievably powerful.

I have the damage value stay the same, but it changes to S(e). Shotguns can fire bigger tazer bullets than holdout pistols.

Thats a great way to do it, Angelis.

I personally wish it acted like Stun Rounds from 1st ed (the bean bag kind) and required a shotgun in the first damn place.

Logically, with a taser-type round you're aiming for nerve clusters, so a better shot means a higher chance of overloading a target's nervous system. Good thing every gun crazy street thug studies anatomy, right?

To answer the question in your topic tittle i would say no, there are lots of guns that have a damage code higher then 6.
And to someone suggestion of making it just -S(e), meaning it uses the guns standart damage value i wuold hell no that does make S&S to always be better then other ammo
At least now in heavier weapons your trading -half impactarmor to a slower damage code but with that change you get guns that do 9S(e) with AP-half thats some erious damage code.

Well, the real life version works as long as it gets a solid main body hit. It then splits to increase the effect, the back half falls off on impact, connected to the front half by a tough wire, and usually contacts the target's legs around the thigh area.



-karma

In my game "replaces the damage code" means that net hits would not be used to modify damage.

If a character wants to hit a more vulnerable spot then they should be making a Called Shot to increase DV or bypass armor. These are still viable options even not using net hits to modify SnS.

Re: burst fire, you could simply rule that you neither get multiple hits *nor* Narrow-burst effects. Make wide bursts to be surer of hitting them with the S&S, and you only ever get 6S(e). This solves the problem of 8, 11, or 15S(e) bursts (god forbid you use a minigun).

I'd be open to considering no net hits for damage either (logically, I can see it not mattering where the tazer connects), but you'd want to playtest that a little.

Using the rules in the book of 6(s)e with net hits increasing damage, and busrt fire used as normal, we have had absolutely no problem with this round. It has yet to even be used in more than a few occassions at all. Yes, Half Impact Armor is nice, as is the secondary effect, but overall, I have always felt that the many options for ammunition make the character's choices interesting...

Overall, I tend to see more useage of Ex-Ex, APDS, and AV rounds in the game much more often than I see the Use of SnS. In fact, I cuold probably count the number of clips (of SnS) on one hand in our game, where the number of Standard Round, EX-EX Round, APDS Round, AV Round Clips vastly outnumbers them by a factor of probably 50 or so... We have 6 Players, and of them, I tend to be the only one who uses SnS (I carry 2 Clips just in case I might Need them for something like Spirits)...

I know that this probably does not help the debate, as a lot of tables see nothing BUT Sns at their tables... I just wanted to point it out is all...

Yeah, your players just aren't 'smart' enough, that's all.

If you have APDS or even AV available then it's no surprise. I prefer ADPS in most cases over SnS in heavier weapons. But APDS has an availability of 16 while SnS has something like 4 (not sure on this but it's not very high), so the problem is that your getting something that is as good as APDS or sometimes even better and is really easy to get at the same time.

Yeah... Most of the players at our table actually do not like SnS... It is just Choice on their part, not any indication of Intelligence there Yerameyahu, and they choose other round types...

Honestly, we have enough magical power that Spirits are generally not that big of a deal, so the Spirit Killing Properties of SnS do not mean much in our case...

As for the availability of APDS/AV/EX-EX... the characters have been around so long that they have ample contacts to acquire such items (The majority of the characters are over 300 Karma points Awarded). So it has become easier to acquire the more difficult to get items.

I didn't say not smart, I said not 'smart'.

Heheheh... Potaytoe, Potahto....

Have you ever used a Vindicator with Gel Rounds?

If I was your Vindicator, I would critically glitch on every burst to punish you for such blasphemy.

Mind giving a reference for this? I've never heard or found any indication that TI is doing anything like being picky about who buys the ammo, keeping more than just normal documents on purchasers or serializing ammo.

Tazer does everything they can to promote their gear as 100% safe. Why would they do that?

More important for SR, why would anyone highly regulate nonlethal ammo?

Railroad GMs

There is no reference. If you read the rest of the sentence, I was musing over a potential house ruling; nothing more.

You guys can call it railroading if you like, and I know there's always the 'if they can do it, so can you' crowd, but I'm trying to maintain statistical balance, so the game doesn't turn into another arms-race.

You can debate the merits as you see fit. As interesting as that debate is, I'm here to learn how people are interpreting RAW.

Oops. guess I'm too used to personal musings being inserted as fact.

If it works for your group, go for it. I know some players REALLY like being railroaded.

I'm generally of the mind that if I can buy something lethal, more lethal and highly destructive; why have harsh rules to keep players from using nonlethal arms? I've always done SnS as any other ammo/arms.

It's sort of like the Phaser in Star Trek (or the Zat'ni'katel, if you prefer) - the Phaser renders normal sidearms wildly obsolete. You can reliably stop any attacker with a Phaser, kill them if you must, but if you should accidentally zap a civilian or a team member, no harm, no foul. It's hard to imagine any other weapon really gaining ground relative to that. Furthermore, consider that in Shadowrun, SnS has a fair chance to sink a drone, and it is cheap and legal...why wouldn't it be overused?

Oooooo...evil thought. Anybody remember in Diamond Age, where the thug with the cybergun is briefly surprised to find out that his weapon deploys nano-tags with his serial number stamped on them?

...on the other hand, why would the cops bother with SnS users when most guys just go full-auto with regular ammo and mow down the opposition? Hell, stick-n-shock is genteel compared to that.

It could generate a distinctive pulse of static/emi that systems might recognise...but again, sensors that detect gunfire are more common and more useful.

I dunno, SnS is just a better round against things that can be stunned.

Well is there a problem with the players not using deadly rounds anymore and only using SnS? Last I remember its expensive so players are going to conserve shots or spend alot of their cash on ammo. Also, if they are leaving everyone alive they encounter that leaves things open for annoying recurring baddies. Don't forget it also means there are witnesses to their deeds.

Me I'll stick to ExEx and APDS to make sure there are no witnesses and fewer recurring baddies.

It *is* expensive. But you can always murder a KO'd/tazed enemy. Duh.

My biggest concern isn't the damage, so much as the 'leaves them helpless for x number of Combat Rounds'. A single hit from this bullet will effectively kill anyone without electrical resistance, or a large body score, because you can always shoot them again sometime in the next 12 seconds while they're lying there drooling. It really should replace all ammo at this point, since nothing else is remotely as effective.

It's usefulness does wonders for me as a GM. I only need to know the rules for an Ares Alpha, SnS ammo, and NonConductive armor! Most other gear is obsolete! Turns out I didn't need to buy Arsenal!

Right. And then you add strong stun and half (weaker) Impact armor.

So the short version is, there's no hidden loophole somewhere that makes this balanced. According to RAW, it really is 6S(e) + net hits, standard burst rules, half impact armor, disoriented (-2 dice pool) for 2 + net hits combat rounds, and a chance to be incapacitated to 2 + net hits combat rounds.

Below is a quick table, for reference:

That said, there have been pushes to add serialization to bullets and taser products , some quite recent, and some hve already been in effect for years.

Arizona State Law:
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/48leg/2r/bills/hb2833p.pdf

Taser Anti-Felon ID System and Blog:
http://www.taser.com/Pages/consumer_overview.aspx
http://www.taser.com/products/security/Pages/TASERC2SIK.aspx (under benefits tab, responsible section)
http://blog.taser.com/2010/03/jermaine-jac...nd-stun-device/

So it's not a stretch to think an advanced electronic ammunition would have serialization 60 years from now, in a distopian future, where corps monitor and control everything.

I'm not sure how much it would help investigators to learn that the ammo used was part of a shipment that disappeared 6 months ago (i.e. your players will just make sure to buy ammo from their fixer instead of Weapons World).

Okay... Easy...

We use the Ammo RAW...
1. 6(s)e, increasing Damage with Net Hits... This upgrades damage from small arms (generally) and downgrades it for larger weapons...
2. Narrow Bursts increase Damage by +1 per Additional Bullet, as Normal (+2, +5, +9, +11, +14)
3. Secondary Effect enforced
4. IS an elemental Effect for the purposes of 1/2 ITNW, so it is an Awesome Spirit Ammo Choice

There it is...

It helps to link cases together, and you'd better hope they do not catch anybody else who has been meddling with that ammo.

"OK, so ammunition matching yours has been found here, here, and there. Now it's your choice: either you fall for all of those, or you tell us who you bought the bullets from..."

Oh yes. especially since RAW has all firearms needing permits. I was just after a reference especially if it was about Taser. Thanks for the links. I know I'll be staying away from such a big brother company.

I'd be more concerned that their non-lethal products are killing people, but that's just me.

For your information: Taser France is currently under investigation for spying on a leftist leader, including digging through his bank accounts.

All firearms in RAW have an 'R' rating, which I have chosen to interpret to mean you need a permit if you want security to let you carry in public. We all know effective mandatory permits are, in game and in real life.


Thanks, Tymeaus. This was what I wanted to verify.

-----

I fear I'm going to have to house rule this after all. A light semi-automatic pistol in the hands of a competent dual-wielder, firing at an average rent a cop, can take his average damage per IP from 2DV to 16DV, just by switching to SnS. That doesn't take into account all the secondary effects of electrical damage, which means that a single bullet can take a person out of a fight, consistently. I can't think of a single runner who wouldn't spend the extra 6 nuyen per bullet, for such drastic results.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Somehow CCW permits don't seem harsh enough for SR, at least to me. I always figured since its dystopian the permits would be like the system in one of the modern day totalitarian states like Massachusetts, or NY or the city of Chicago.




Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but I don't know of any effective mandatory permits in RL. Well at least not effective at their stated purpose.

That was a sarcastic statement, he forgot the 'how' in there.

A few balancing things on your hypothetical dual-wielder:

First, it's a -2 penalty for each additional target. Second, dual-wield prevents you from using Smartlink/Laser scope. Third, per RAW, there is no reduction in cumulative recoil for using two weapons. (All from SR4A, pg. 150, Attacker using a Second Firearm)

That means that, assuming a pool of 12, no significant range factors, and Ambidexterous:

Shot 1, Target A, Mainhand: Pool of 6
Shot 2, Target B, Offhand: Pool of 3 [-2, multiple targets, -1, cumulative recoil]
Shot 3, Target C, Mainhand: Pool of 0 [-4, multiple targets, -2, cumulative recoil]
Shot 4, Target D, Offhand: Pool of 0(-3) [-6, multiple targets, -3, cumulative recoil]

Now, if each pistol had 2 points of recoil compensation (no idea how I'll code *that* in) then it seems fair to remove the recoil penalties from the above, giving us pools of 6, 4, 2, and 0. Still not super pools, though. It gets better if you assume a double-tap on two hostiles: 6, 4, 4, 4, with a probable one hit on each.

_ _ _ _

As to SnS being game-breaking, remember that not all enemies go down from Stun damage - Pain Editors and some chems will let you keep fighting. Mechanicals won't take any damage at all.

Secondary effects are where it gets fiddly. Unless I misunderstand, humans first get a chance to soak the damage, per normal. If they take electric damage, it gives them a -2 penalty and they have to beat 3 on a soak roll to stay on their feet. Anybody packing Bod 4 and 12 Impact Armor should usually make that roll.

Mechanicals will always have to roll to resist, but their threshold is net hits, and they get to roll body+armor on it. Even if we assume that is subject to the half-armor rules, lots of mechanicals have enough soak to reliably shake off those hits.

The license system in SR is really very broken. I've already house-ruled a ton of that stuff (with some help), to make it both playable and entertaining, without being the massive paperwork overhead it is now. In the end, it only really matters if someone bothers to check it.


You're understanding perfectly...

Care to explain your damage calculations.

Also i cant understand how you claim S&S being drone letheal over other ammo types, when it cant ever make any damage to drones.

It's late, so I'll post a link to a spreadsheet tomorrow. I'll admit that it's a bit simplified, but it should at least point out the scaling difference, especially with small arms.

Electrical Damage has the chance to disable a drone when it hits, even if it's only for a minimal amount of damage. No, I haven't worked out the minutia of that yet; it's yet another side-benefit of switching to this type of round.

My definition of 'lethal' may be too broad here, but when a single bullet can take someone out of a fight for 3+ Combat Rounds, I tend to think of it as lethal. Being completely helpless while your enemy can continue to assault you for at least 3 Rounds (2 + net hits minimum, 1 net hit required for it to stick) is generally lethal in the end.

This part of the discussion is getting into detailed mechanics which I think have been hammered on a million times on this forum, and I'm hesitant to start a discussion that'll likely turn into another war, since it's likely going to come down to how lethal people prefer their game. I'll start a new thread, since I've already got the answer I was looking for from this one.

But the think is even the professional rating 2 corp sec grunts have enought dice to pass that test every time on avarage as do all the really dangerous drones.

I'm sure you're right. As I said, I haven't worked out this minutia yet. The point being that this is yet another perk to switching to this type of round. The benefit list is getting exceptionally long for a 5R 8 nuyen bullet.

I have, um, accidentally killed an NPC with a full auto burst from a drum equipped Enfield AS-7 shotgun packing gel rounds.

<.<




-karma