Nope, Stun would be 6+Will/2, right?

And when is the errata's errata expected?

Care to post some fact, becouse it really doesn't.

Traul:Most likely never.
Sheshyr: Those are a good basis as any.

Both tracks are (8 + Stat/2)

(8 + Stat/2) rounded up.

Sorry guys, I'm done. I've posted my closing thoughts at the bottom of page 4. I may post a graph to make it easier to visualize, but there's no point in continuing this if the results are irrelevant.

I've got my example up comparing SnS to ExEx. As an aside, SnS is very effective when used during suppressive fire.

-DrZaius

Thanks StealthSigma, just checking.

Here's a link to the chart that summarizes the spreadsheet.

they dont allow images here.

Thanks. I was curious. Removing it.

Am I allowed to link it still?

Well, copy paste into your address bar.

Okay, there is a really simple way of telling if SnS is better than APDS for any given weapon. Okay, maybe not quite simple, but here you go.


So, there you have it, the exact actual ratio required on the opponents armor in order to make APDS (And EX-EX and flechette for that matter) do the same damage as SnS on every type of gun that can have SnS ammo. Other stats are irrelevant, because they will adjust the damage the same regardless of the type of ammo fired. Remember that this is only a comparison of damage, and doesn't take the SnS's two secondary effects into account.

As the data clearly shows, a high armor opponent is basically always going to favor you using SnS ammo regardless of weapon type, and all weapons except the HMG, Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, and sports rifle are generally going to favor SnS ammo unless you are dealing with some exceedingly weird armor values.

There, now the exact numbers have been laid out, it has been statistically shown that SnS ammo is better than other forms of ammo under most circumstances.

Edit: Oh, and for non-conductivity, just drop the Impact requirement by 2 for each rating worth of non-conductivity. SnS is still generally a good choice if the opponent is highly armored (Which they likely will be if they are forking out for non-conductivity)

I was just about to post something that showed similar results: link.

It appears we came to identical conclusions from separate directions. I think that might give this some validity.

Yep, fairly similar results. Yours is a bit easier to see visually, but mine provides a bit more useful information, because it tells you the exact point at which SnS ammo becomes more/less effective than another kind of ammo.

Go team 'SnS is overpowered'!

Confirming what everyone already knew. Science!

If everyone was using shocker ammo, everyone should invest into non-conductivity first, heavier armor second. It is a viable option, but not dominant. My GM recently demonstrated the use of tasers...

Lets go with an actual numbers of worn armor and not using FFBA.
Body 1 max armor 2/2 APDS is -2 S&S is -1
Body 2 max armor 4/4 APDS is -4 S&S is -2
Body 3 max armor 6/6 APDS is -4(min) S&S is -3
Body 4 max armor 8/8 APDS is -4(min) S&S is -4 this is the point where they are just as good for armor penetration when fired from a hold out,light pistol,machinepistol or SMG
Body 5 max armor 10/10 S&S is -5 need -1 point of base AP to match with APDS for example heavy pistol,AR or shotgun
Body 6 max armor 12/12 S&S is -6 need -2 point of base AP to match with APDS for example MMG or Warhawk
Body 7 max armor 14/14 S&S is -7 need -3 point of base AP to match with APDS for example HMG or most of the sniper rifles
Body 8 max armor 16/16 S&S is -8 need -4 point of base AP to match with APDS for example Barret
Body 9 max armor 18/18 S&S is -9 need -5 point of base AP to match with APDS for example Assault cannon
After that there are no weapons with high enought base AP to match S&S AP(except those witch also have -half and those are obviously ganna have same AP as S&S for all amounts of body), but those weapons from the latter half of the list have better base damage and as damage equals on avarage 3 points of AP that means that the badguy needs 3 more body per point of DV over 6 for S&S to pe better.

So really S&S isn't that super duper good.

You rarely have equal B and I ratings, and I forgot what page it says that APDS causes drool mode or automatic stacking -2 to all actions?

You all keeping talking about the incapasitated think like its some sort of god mode, but even a guy with avarage human stats and 6 points of impact armor isn't ever gonna suffer it on avarage, its rare enought that it can be ingnored.
And who cares about minus 2 to actions when the mook is most likely dead anyway form the 2-4 shots/bursts you hit him with and if he isn't then he most likely has big enought dice pools that the -2 isn't gonna affect him too much.

I provided an exact formula for determining at what point the two are equal on any given weapon. And I don't know what actual numbers of worn armor you are using, virtual every armor in the book has an impact rating 2 lower than the ballistic rating.

True, but armor penetration isn't important, it is prospected damage. Yes, armor penetration is just as good for a light pistol with APDS and SnS, but the base damage is 2 higher for the SnS



Did you even look at the stuff under the spoiler? It fairly directly shown that it is 'super duper good' in nearly all cases. AP does not equal damage potential for a weapon, you also have to take into account the damage of the weapon itself. Your chart is only useful for determining when something that doesn't matter is the same. Well, not doesn't matter, AP does matter, but it isn't what it is important, it is simply one component that is used to determine the thing that is in fact important.


I would call a 50/50 chance to instantly take down someone for at least 4 turns fairly good. I would also call the ability to throw a -2 penalty on someone fairly good. You don't always kill everything in one shot (It's why you invest in armor). It's good for minimizing counterattack damage, and is great for helping take down really powerful foes (like other runners).

We've presented our numbers. Some people don't believe they accurately represent the situation. There is no quick answer to this, and in the end we're looking at game-table preference anyway. Unless someone is going to take the time to do the full de rigueur, we're at a standstill. Until then, it appears there are places where SnS is a significant improvement over normal ammo, at minimal cost. I say minimal, because really... how many of your actually worry that you won't be able to afford ammo?

Thanks for participating.

I think mine is fairly rigorous, it directly compares the damage potential of each weapon with SnS ammo and with APDS (Which is the same as EXEX and Felechette). Since the goal of a weapon is to deal damage, the ability to deal damage really is the ultimate comparison, since any other function of the weapon can be preformed equally well regardless of if it has SnS ammo or some other kind, and anything that can be done to improve the damage of one kind of ammo would equally improve the other kinds of ammo.

I really don't know how much more rigorous you want than an exact number provided for each weapon of when SnS ammo is better or worse than other kinds of ammo.

All of those armor values can be had, i made extra sure of that while making that post.

Nothink actually stops you from using better weapons agains even those low body guys and then you actually have better AP and DV using APDS over S&S. And really the light pistol is the ugly redhead stepchild of the SR4 weapon system.

Yeah and there at the body 5 and up those guns that have the same AP also start to have same or better DV then S&S, so how exactly is S&S better.

'can be had' and 'are generally seen' are very different. What is generally seen is impact armor two lower than ballistic, and that isn't even counting the 3 points that most PCs would have from FFBA

Okay, so what is your point, you can use sniper rifles on unarmored opponents to great effect? That's something I've been saying from the start. And no, the light pistol is great for infiltration, perhaps the heavy pistol packs a bit more punch, but that is part of my point, the fact that the heavy pistol packs more punch makes no difference when using SnS ammo, so besides the very slight range increase, why would you sneak in a heavy pistol over a light pistol when using SnS ammo? And really, why would you use an assault rifle over a light pistol when you have SnS ammo? They are both equally effective (Except for things like burst fire and larger clips, which are admittedly a fairly big deal, but if you're interested in being inconspicuous at all...)

My point is that your graph doesn't show anything useful. Your graph doesn't show that extra DV, and it certainly doesn't show anything about when SnS is more useful than other ammo. All it shows is that at an arbitrarily determined armor value, APDS has more or less AP than SnS ammo, which shows nothing useful.

I don't know why I'm arguing with you about this. You're obviously determined to utterly ignore any and all proof that SnS is in any way better than other ammo. If you don't see a problem, then don't worry about it in your game, but don't claim that it isn't powerful without providing something that actually shows it.

I especially liked where he said that a free -2 penalty to everything isn't important 'because they'd already be dead'. Even though the S&S damage is essentially equal under almost every circumstance, which means that -2 is always pure gravy.

An easier solution is ignoring secondary effects if the round fails to inflict any actual damage... it impacts in the armor and does not penetrate to the body (for all intents and purposes, in this option)... Thus, it has the potential to be damaging with the secondary effects, but otherwise is pretty irrelevant....

I only offer this solution to those who actually think that SnS is briken... I have yet to see the sheer absurdity that is being put forth actually appear in any game that I have been in...

Just Sayin'

Except... How many of your runners actually have an Impact rating 2 lower than their ballistic... almost always, my Impact rating is equal to my Ballistic Rating...



and yet Flechette has +2 Damage potential and you do not claim it is the best ammunition to use... why is that?



Looked... Did not necesdsarily agree with it... ammunition selection is not a scientific process for most people who use guns, it is a matter of preferrence... as such, I have to disagree with your assessment because I generally do not use SnS for my characters... My preferrence is somewhat different...



And... it is hardly 50/50... I have yet to actually see someone fail the test (as a character) for the Incapacitation... Kind of throws the 50/50 right out the door wouldn't you think? -2 is fairly good, yes, no argument about that... but Runners will hardly ever be handicapped by the non incrementing -2 penalty, and heaven forbid it is someone who can just "Will" the penalty away, like an adept... Against Runners, I have seen far more success with APDS or EX-EX than I have with SnS...

And honestly, there is nothing better than a Capsule Round with Narcojet/DMSO... Unfortunately, I kill quite a few people by accident with that particular round. It is pretty expensive though...

Actually, FFBA just gets those people to their max's easier...



Reasons for Bigger weapons than Light Pistol...

Hmmm,
1. The biggest is going to be Range...
2. Better actual Stopping power against things like Drones...
3. Better combined AP (Example, Sporting Rifle with APDS is -5, and With AV it is -7; this is so much better than -1/2 in most cases that are actual Run Scenarios)

There are at least 3 situations (which I would say are pretty common) where I would rather have something other than a light pistol, even with SnS...

Is SnS Ammunition good... Yes, no doubt. I do not think, however, that it is the end-all be-all of ammunition, even for a Light Pistol.

It's the end-almost-all-be-almost-all, is the point. Vastly cheaper than Narcoject, more effective than nearly everything else, legal, *easier* to explain than regular ammo…

Um, because Flechette doesn't do what S&S does, as you know perfectly well? Be fair with your rebuttal.

The major problem with narcojet is the effect doesn't kick in until the end of the initiative pass. So if I shoot someone with it in a non-ambush situation, he would still be able to react to being shot during his action phase. SnS may deal less damage but the KO effect will be right then rather than at the end of the combat round.

Actually it shows that you have to go to absurdly high armor values for S&S to actually give you more AP then APDS, unless your not allowed to use nothing but pistols.
And i admid that S&S is good for hold-outs and machinepistols, well light pistols and SMG:s too but why would you use the ones that are harder to hide when your using ammo that equalaises those guns.
And coincidentally those two gun types are the ones my Sasha has loaded with S&S

What im not accepting is that S&S is always better no matter what weapon you using.

Exactly.

Who said that? S&S is better for *almost* every situation with *almost* every weapon. I saw people specifically say that sniper rifles, MGs, etc., don't really benefit from S&S, in this thread (although, as shown, they *could* in the right circumstances).

The poster who went "Oh but S&S is better for even sniper rifles as the enemy has 28/14 armor" those are values i would actually want someone to make.

Again, that's a specific circumstance that the poster clearly explained, after saying, 'yes, sniper rifles generally won't benefit much'. Frankly, inflicting a -2 (6 boxes) on Mr. 28/14 with 1 net hit is impressive, and I'm not aware of a non-S&S that would perform as well in the circumstances.

Most of mine actually. Walking around in sports gear makes you look kinda silly and draws alot of unwanted suspicion, doesn't it?


Because it is exactly as effective as APDS and EXEX which I already mentioned. Every -1 AP is worth .333 damage, meaning that APDS has an effective +1.333 to damage, EXEX has the same by combining the +1 DV and -1AP for 1.333, and the +2 DV on flechette is lowered by .6666 to 1.3333 due to the +2 AP. So yeah, I included flechette in the calculations as well. The only real difference between these three types of ammo is the likelyhood of doing P damage instead of S damage.


The fact that SnS is better/worse than another type of ammo has nothing to do with preference. It's nice that you prefer to use APDS or whatever, but that doesn't change how good/bad any kind of ammo is.

It of course depends on the stats of the opponent. Mooks and such should likely be around 50/50 as they'll generally have bod/wil of 3, and around 6 impact armor is fair, giving 9 dice to get 3 hits, which is decent odds of getting it. Maybe it isn't as high as 50/50 to miss it. Maybe it only works 1 time in 5, or even 10. That's still a really sweet 'critical' effect in my opinion. And as I've said, my data shows the equal point of pure damage. It doesn't take either secondary effect into account when comparing the point at which the different ammos are equal.


Yeah, what is it, 500ish nuyen a shot or something? I think the added effectiveness is more than made up for by the super high price and the fact that it takes an IP for the drug to take effect.


1. Very true, but as my info shows, even assault rifles tend to benefit from SnS ammo unless the target is unarmored.
2. Yep, good thing the electric attack of SnS rounds fry drones, giving them the higher stopping power.
3. AP doesn't matter, combined damage does.

I don't really see your point here. SnS is good with nearly all weapons, a sniper rifle being the most obvious exemption, and the other longarms generally being better without unless the opponent is particularly heavily armored. Can easily come up with several reasons that you would want to use a light pistol. The point is sometimes your better off with a pistol, sometimes with an assault rifle, sometimes with something else, it's all relative. What's important is that SnS is nearly always the better choice for ammo.


And like I've already said AP does not matter on its own, so it shows nothing useful.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. It seems like you're agreeing with me here that SnS ammo is overpowered because it makes weapon choice irrelevant as far as damage potential is concerned.
Which I've never said. I've said that it is nearly always better if you're not using a longarm or heavy weapon, and even on longarms and heavy weapons it can occasionally be useful against very high armor targets.

Mechanically SnS is one of the primary choices due to availability and effectiveness, but if the cops are going to nail me for having a gun I don't think they're going to worry much about what it's loaded with.

Unless it's APDS I stole out of their squad car (which would explain why they're after me).

I've yet to choose a weapon based solely off its stats. My Ork uses a revolver because he's got a bit of Dirty Harry going, my faces/mages tend to use a Colt Manhunter because of the laser sight and affordability, and my gilette has a hold-out pistol concealed in a fake boob like she was a fembot. Few of them rely on SnS simply for style. If you've got the biggest, baddest handgun on the block then why the hell are you stocking it with pansy ammo?

I'm saying that S&S is only really better in those smaller weapons with no base AP and worse damage code then S&S and of those only hold-outs and machine pistols are really worth using as their easier to hide then lightpistols and SMG:s respectivly. In all other weapon types you have to be against absurd armor values for S&S to be a better option.
Also for light pistols there's an option thats just as good as any other model loaded with S&S.

Flechette is +2P +5AP not +2P +2AP. Using 0.333 per AP means that the AP portion gives you -1.666 damage for a net of +0.333 damage. Your average opponent wearing standard stock armor will rate 2 lower impact armor than ballistic so that bumps the bonus damage to +1 damage which is still lower than the +1.333 damage you average from APDS or EX-Ex. The targets Impact armor must be 3 points lower to break even against APDS or EX-Ex and 4 or more points lower to be more effective.

Yeah fletchette ammo is only really woth using on Ares viper and Tiffany needler.

By contrast, my wife's hacker's impact was around double her ballistic (biker leathers) so SnS would do worse against her than a standard pistol round, as far as penetrating armor. My other player, I think had roughly equal ballistic and impact armor.

Not really. Those weapons have been errataed.

Arsenal's errata lists the needler at 8P(f) +5AP. (WTF? 6P 0AP Hold out)
Arsenal's errata says the viper slivergun should have +5AP instead of +2AP.

It's bad that SRA4 lists the viper slivergun as 8P(f) +2AP still, but I'm inclined the go with the Arsenal errata on the weapon as being the proper stats.

I think the needler is -supposed- to be 6P(f) +5AP.

Yes and viper is +3DV and +6armor
and needler is +4DV and +5 armor
So in those the fletchette ammo is actually helping, unlike every other gun around that only get +2DV and +5AP.

No. A viper slivergun with regular ammo would do 6P 0AP. It doesn't get +3DV from using flechette, it gets +2DV. The gun just has a higher base damage than the average heavy pistol. It's the same thing with the needler, its damage value is 2 higher than the norm for holdouts. You could argue that since the slivergun and needler can only use flechette ammo, they've been giving a higher base DV to compensate.

Ah, never noticed that errata. Well, in that case flechette is the weaker option, and is only very marginally better than regular ammo.


Yeah, but it'd still do more damage than a pistol round thanks to the 2 (or 1 for heavy pistol) higher DV of an SnS round over a regular pistol round. Granted for the heavy pistol it would only be an average of 0.666 more damage per shot, and at that point using EXEX or APDS would be a better option, but having impact be double that of ballistic is fairly rare.


Not quite. For the Assault Rifle an armor of 8/6 or 9/8 or 10/10, etc causes SnS to break even. These seem like very reasonable values of armor to me, I'm fairly sure that the lined coat (likely the most common armor seen) is 8/6. Note that an 8/6 armor favors SnS ammo for all weapons smaller than an assault rifle, including holdouts, machine pistols, SMGs, Light Pistols, and Heavy pistols.


And this is exactly my problem with SnS.

I know if I ever run a Shadowrun game I'm house ruling SnS to change the damage type from S to P (instead of changing the base damage value) and maintain the rest of the stats. This increases its effective value for the larger guns (machine guns, shotguns, sniper rifles) while decreasing the effective value for small guns (which is where most of the problem with SnS stems from).

Thats pure sematics, i was comparing it to standart weapons of their respective class and in that comparisong the numbers are as i posted them as those guns can only shoot fletchette ammo their theoretical damage code with normal ammo is pretty irrelevant.
My point was that those 2 guns are the only ones where using fletchette ammo actually benefits you on avarage instead of just upping your damage by 2 and giving them enought bonus to armor to almost negate it and highher chance to negate all of your damage.

I'm confused, how does making it P damage make it less useful in small guns and more useful in large guns? The trouble with SnS comes from it having a set damage value regardless of weapon type. Changing it so that it simply changes the damage of the weapon to S(e) (similar to a gel round) would go a very very long way towards balancing it. It'd still be useful for the -2 and would be potentially handy for a bit of extra AP (depending on the armor of the opponent), but it would no longer be the ammo that you absolutely should use in all light weapons in all circumstances like it is now.

Nope then its pretty much be the only ammo anyone smart uses in those higher damage weapons, which i think is 100 times worse then the current situation.
With that house rule in effect i would totally agree that S&S is the most broken ammo type ever.

What? I don't see that being the case at all, as your own chart shows very well. A sniper rifle with ADPS is going to be more effective than SnS against any target that has armor lower than 14/14.

It should maybe be -1 damage instead of even damage, but it hardly makes it the best ammo all the sudden.