1) As far as I can see, it's cheaper to take a level of Submersion and a point of Resonance than to simply take that last point of Resonance. Is this correct or am I missing something:
Example: From 5/6 Resonance to 6/6 Resonance costs 25 points. Taking a level of Submersion and buying the Resonance gets you to 6/7 Resonance, gives you and Echo and costs 23 points. Going to 7/8 Resonance from there would cost only 26 points (as compared to 7/7's 25 points) but I wouldn't turn down another Echo for the cost of a single BP.

2) Do Dronomancers need control rigs? As far as I can tell, the control rig exists as a set of inputs and feedback for the node that is connected to the drone. It seems to me that the control rig isn't even connected in any conventional way to the the node that is the will of the Dronomancers/Technomancer. As I read the rules on it, I'm not even sure it gives it's +2 to Dronomancers.
"The control rig provides a +2 dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests while the rigger is “jumped into” a vehicle/drone via full virtual reality. This bonus does not apply to other drone manipulation through the Matrix. Is what a Dronomancer does considered full VR or is it something beyond that?

yup. Same goes for magic users.

Dronomancers do NOT need a control rig. in 4th, it is not required to jump in(just vr), but it gives a substantial bonus when you do. Additionally, it stacks with the Immersion echo, for when you really need +2 to all vehicle tests, and a further +2 to all tests while jumped in.

Honestly, if you're playing a dronomancer, show your DM unwired 136 - with the new Unrated Complex Forms, point out that they can duplicate smartlink and simrig cyberware, and take a Control Rig complex form.

However, you can't Submerge or Initiate in BP gen. But yes, you're right. It would work better in karmagen, but that system doesn't penalize you unfairly(in my opinion) for maxing out a stat, so the necessity of the trick doesn't really apply there.

The 25 cost for capping at 6 Resonance/Magic is only for Chargen. There is no additional or increased cost for raising it to that with karma in-game. And going from 6 to 7 would be 35 karma (new rating x5).


Drone rigs are not required for jumping into or otherwise rigging. They simply give a dicepool bonus if you have one. In earlier editions they were required, but in 4th Ed it is no longer the case.

Main problem with that is that you cannot submerge in BP chargen, so your tactic isn't viable.

You are however slightly better off waiting for play to start and paying 30 karma for that 6th resonance than buying it for 25 BP. Of course on the other hand, that 6th point lets you get rating 6 CFs with BP (which is way cheaper than with karm) and you'll likely have 500 other things to be spending karma on anyway as a TM.

As for control rigs, no on needs them, but anyone that will be rigging should have them. And yeah, they work fine for a TM, TMs go VR just like anyone else, except that they don't need any tech to do so.

Might as well take Dermal Plating as a CF...

different thing

More an echo than a CF though.

But a smartlink and simrig work on the same simsense mode of the Control rig, so might as well allow it as a complex form for 2 dice bonus (like a smartlink)

A control rig is supposed to be sort of a coprocessor to assist the brain, that's not something which can be emulated by running another "program" inside the brain.

A biofeedback filter used to be the same way

A smartlink is a coprocessor unit, running a dedicated program to assist the user
A simrig is a multi-processor unit that records simsense data generated by the user

OK, so you think it's possible to get another CPU core by running a program on the existing one(s)?

It's not so much getting a cpu core for a TM as emulating the effects.

A TM has no CPU! the complex forms account for them altering their neural pathways to work a certain way that emulates having the items in question.

A TM has his brain. The control rig adds a dedicated coprocessor, which increases the brain's computing power. Emulating the effect of faster hardware by running another program on the existing hardware is not possible.

You assume that it works like software, vs a hardware upgrade to the system

So explain how a bit of software allows for simsense recording and smartlinks but not the control rig emulation of hardware to be done by a TM's brain?

...because hardware upgrades would be echoes.


Does any of the two increase the computing power of the brain? If not for game balance reasons, smartlinks would just be a piece of software.

Both do, because they are processor units that have hardware in them to run specialized programs.

Smartlink: has to run the smartlink software, do multiple calculations for body posture, gun status, etc..
Simrig: has to process the data it is given and run multiple conversions in real time to make it a machine readable format on the storage media (and it's a lot more processor intense than a smartlink hence the higher essence cost of an implant)

Not really. You just need a smartlink on a gun (camera) and a smartlink on your glasses (special display). No where is there mention of a computer chip being installed in your contact lens so that it can do all kinds of fancy calculations. And in honesty, if the computer chip is that small, it isn't a major resource hog. I'd imagine the TM's mind could handle that minimal load.

Except that a TM already does this naturally anyway. They can naturally turn their thought into computer based instructions, and turn computer based instructions into something their mind can understand. So no, the ability to add their other senses to the equation isn't a point of needing extra processing power to do so, it is simply a point of knowing how to read and transmit the extra senses, hense a CF.

There already is an echo that mimics the control rig, so there is no reason to have a CF that also mimics the control rig.

forgot about the immersion echo, hadn't really played TM riggers.

But the question was more on implants doing the work vs a pair of goggles or an external module.

You can't buy an external control rig for your commlink...

I see you are finally getting closer to understanding the difference: The important thing about smartlinks are the targeting algorithms which generate a certain output from input data. This can easily be emulated in software.
A control rig, on the other hand, is about the simple processing power, not about the programs which run on it. That can't be generated by software, not matter what vendors of bogus utilities try to tell you.

What exactly is the argument here? There's the Control Rig, and there's the Echo that acts roughly the same. There's no Control Rig software or CF, but who said there was? It looks like someone just misspoke: they meant Echo and said CF. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, someone was saying that there should be a CF that could mimic the Control Rig.

Oh, I see it now. Thanks! Carry on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And, shame on you, MortVent. A CF that replaces an Echo? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

strictly speaking, the echo stacks with the cyberware as i recall.

It does not replace it. The echo is -far- superior.

A control rig is a cyberware only piece of headware(0.5 essence/10K) that provides +2 dice to all Vehicle tests while Jumped in.
Immersion is an echo that grants a technomancer a +1 dice pool bonus for all tests while he is "jumped in" and may be taken twice.

To clarify, Immersion applies in -every- situation, as long as you're jumped in. Using a drone as a relay to hack? Immersion to Hacking, EW, Matrix perception tests. Using a drone surgeon with a satlink to save someone's life from across the city in the middle ofa firefight? Immersion to Medicine, ECCM tests to resist being jammed on the fly, initiative checks, firewall+analyze tests to detect incoming hackers. Everything while jumped in. Everything everything. Immersion is expensive in terms of karma, but its a seriously underrated echo.
They also stack. A TM with a point of ware and immersion gains +4 dice on vehicle tests while jumped in, such as, say, Gunnery. Now factor in the hotsim bonus, gunnery(Ballistic) spec, a Sensors specialty on perception, and the multiprocessing echo to Observe In Detail w/ AR or VR to make Sensor tests - such as Sensor Lockon Tests as a free action, and the extra dice starts to look really, really scary.

That being said.
A simrig external accessory is a fancy trodenet that costs 1000Y/12A (a portion of 1bp)
A simrig can also be a bodyware implant, at 5000Y/8A, and 0.5 essence. (1bp)
An external smartgun system accessory costs 400Y/A4Restricted, and gives a +2 to shooting people, but only with a smartlink.
A smartlink is a eyeware-only system, with no external accessories available, costing 1000Y/8R and 0.1 essence, and pairs with a smartgun to give a good bonus.
A control rig is a headware only implant, that can't be taken elsewhere in the system. It costs 10000Y/8A, and 0.5 essence, and adds +2 dice to Vehicle tests while jumped in. (2bp)

A TM can take both Simrig and Smartlink as complex forms, for 1BP or two karma in play. They're both pieces of cyberware, clearly TMs can learn to replicate the ability of some cyberware that deals with VR/Simsense data. (Use some common senseTaking a muscle replacement as a complex form is stupid. Taking a smartlink is not.) I don't see any real reason why a technomancer shouldn't be able to learn a Control Rig complex form, particularly for a stream focusing around the concept of drone manipulation.

No, the real issue is costs. What Should a technomancer pay to get a bonus hackers do? There's two sides to the arguement. One, that TM's 'have' to pay essence to get a bonus any hacker gets to enjoy, which means their resonance 5 costs 25bp due to the lowered cap. 13 karma(which can be discounted down to 11 or (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) for a 'mere' +1, even a really good one +1, especially when there's other echoes out there doesn't seem quite right either.
Then there's the flipside - isn't it a little unfair to let a TM take a 2BP implant, at no essence loss, for 1bp? Sure, but it counts against their Logx2 limit on complex forms, isn't that a fair trade? Fair trade, hardly, now it doesn't count against the money limit! Et cetera. It goes on.

But yeah. I don't think its imbalanced for TMs to have the ability to learn a Control Rig complex form. I would, however, impliment it as a sort of...... Unrated complex form with two levels - in the sense that if you have it, you get the bonus, it can't be threaded up because it just gives a flat +2, just to preserve costs because.... lets face it, a control rig is a fairly powerful bonus. So a TM would pay 2 karma to learn a new complex form(control rig), and two more to bring it to R2, and then they've fully learned it and get the bonus, for a grand total of 4 karma. in BP gen, it'd be two points, the same costs for a cyberhacker.

Just, you know, more resonancey. Thats my take on it, anyway.

Thats just blatandly wrong, smartlink is a vision enchament and as such can be had in anythink that takes those including contact lenses.

I've always thought that software emulation of existing dedicated hardware would be a major boon for A.I.s.
Technomancers, on the other hand, already have it easy enough that they don't need the boost.

Also, why bother with Rigging when you can go Remote Control and throw obscene dice for every task on the books?

Jumped-in Riggers Dodge with Response (capped at 6,) Remote Control Riggers Dodge with Command (Thread me to 2x Resonance.)
Jumped-in Riggers shoot with Skill + Sensor (capped at 6,) Remote Control Riggers shoot with Skill + Command (yeah, everything is handled by Command.)

Also, because Command is a Matrix action, it can benefit from Sprite assistance. Jumped in actions aren't Matrix actions by definition. Being Spoof-proof is a big boon, but you've got to invest a lot to make it worth it.