1) As far as I can see, it's cheaper to take a level of Submersion and a point of Resonance than to simply take that last point of Resonance. Is this correct or am I missing something:
Example: From 5/6 Resonance to 6/6 Resonance costs 25 points. Taking a level of Submersion and buying the Resonance gets you to 6/7 Resonance, gives you and Echo and costs 23 points. Going to 7/8 Resonance from there would cost only 26 points (as compared to 7/7's 25 points) but I wouldn't turn down another Echo for the cost of a single BP.

2) Do Dronomancers need control rigs? As far as I can tell, the control rig exists as a set of inputs and feedback for the node that is connected to the drone. It seems to me that the control rig isn't even connected in any conventional way to the the node that is the will of the Dronomancers/Technomancer. As I read the rules on it, I'm not even sure it gives it's +2 to Dronomancers.
"The control rig provides a +2 dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests while the rigger is “jumped into” a vehicle/drone via full virtual reality. This bonus does not apply to other drone manipulation through the Matrix. Is what a Dronomancer does considered full VR or is it something beyond that?

yup. Same goes for magic users.

Dronomancers do NOT need a control rig. in 4th, it is not required to jump in(just vr), but it gives a substantial bonus when you do. Additionally, it stacks with the Immersion echo, for when you really need +2 to all vehicle tests, and a further +2 to all tests while jumped in.

Honestly, if you're playing a dronomancer, show your DM unwired 136 - with the new Unrated Complex Forms, point out that they can duplicate smartlink and simrig cyberware, and take a Control Rig complex form.

However, you can't Submerge or Initiate in BP gen. But yes, you're right. It would work better in karmagen, but that system doesn't penalize you unfairly(in my opinion) for maxing out a stat, so the necessity of the trick doesn't really apply there.

The 25 cost for capping at 6 Resonance/Magic is only for Chargen. There is no additional or increased cost for raising it to that with karma in-game. And going from 6 to 7 would be 35 karma (new rating x5).


Drone rigs are not required for jumping into or otherwise rigging. They simply give a dicepool bonus if you have one. In earlier editions they were required, but in 4th Ed it is no longer the case.

Main problem with that is that you cannot submerge in BP chargen, so your tactic isn't viable.

You are however slightly better off waiting for play to start and paying 30 karma for that 6th resonance than buying it for 25 BP. Of course on the other hand, that 6th point lets you get rating 6 CFs with BP (which is way cheaper than with karm) and you'll likely have 500 other things to be spending karma on anyway as a TM.

As for control rigs, no on needs them, but anyone that will be rigging should have them. And yeah, they work fine for a TM, TMs go VR just like anyone else, except that they don't need any tech to do so.

Might as well take Dermal Plating as a CF...

different thing

More an echo than a CF though.

But a smartlink and simrig work on the same simsense mode of the Control rig, so might as well allow it as a complex form for 2 dice bonus (like a smartlink)

A control rig is supposed to be sort of a coprocessor to assist the brain, that's not something which can be emulated by running another "program" inside the brain.

A biofeedback filter used to be the same way

A smartlink is a coprocessor unit, running a dedicated program to assist the user
A simrig is a multi-processor unit that records simsense data generated by the user

OK, so you think it's possible to get another CPU core by running a program on the existing one(s)?

It's not so much getting a cpu core for a TM as emulating the effects.

A TM has no CPU! the complex forms account for them altering their neural pathways to work a certain way that emulates having the items in question.

A TM has his brain. The control rig adds a dedicated coprocessor, which increases the brain's computing power. Emulating the effect of faster hardware by running another program on the existing hardware is not possible.

You assume that it works like software, vs a hardware upgrade to the system

So explain how a bit of software allows for simsense recording and smartlinks but not the control rig emulation of hardware to be done by a TM's brain?

...because hardware upgrades would be echoes.


Does any of the two increase the computing power of the brain? If not for game balance reasons, smartlinks would just be a piece of software.

Both do, because they are processor units that have hardware in them to run specialized programs.

Smartlink: has to run the smartlink software, do multiple calculations for body posture, gun status, etc..
Simrig: has to process the data it is given and run multiple conversions in real time to make it a machine readable format on the storage media (and it's a lot more processor intense than a smartlink hence the higher essence cost of an implant)

Not really. You just need a smartlink on a gun (camera) and a smartlink on your glasses (special display). No where is there mention of a computer chip being installed in your contact lens so that it can do all kinds of fancy calculations. And in honesty, if the computer chip is that small, it isn't a major resource hog. I'd imagine the TM's mind could handle that minimal load.

Except that a TM already does this naturally anyway. They can naturally turn their thought into computer based instructions, and turn computer based instructions into something their mind can understand. So no, the ability to add their other senses to the equation isn't a point of needing extra processing power to do so, it is simply a point of knowing how to read and transmit the extra senses, hense a CF.

There already is an echo that mimics the control rig, so there is no reason to have a CF that also mimics the control rig.

forgot about the immersion echo, hadn't really played TM riggers.

But the question was more on implants doing the work vs a pair of goggles or an external module.

You can't buy an external control rig for your commlink...

I see you are finally getting closer to understanding the difference: The important thing about smartlinks are the targeting algorithms which generate a certain output from input data. This can easily be emulated in software.
A control rig, on the other hand, is about the simple processing power, not about the programs which run on it. That can't be generated by software, not matter what vendors of bogus utilities try to tell you.

What exactly is the argument here? There's the Control Rig, and there's the Echo that acts roughly the same. There's no Control Rig software or CF, but who said there was? It looks like someone just misspoke: they meant Echo and said CF.

No, someone was saying that there should be a CF that could mimic the Control Rig.

Oh, I see it now. Thanks! Carry on.

And, shame on you, MortVent. A CF that replaces an Echo?

strictly speaking, the echo stacks with the cyberware as i recall.

It does not replace it. The echo is -far- superior.

A control rig is a cyberware only piece of headware(0.5 essence/10K) that provides +2 dice to all Vehicle tests while Jumped in.
Immersion is an echo that grants a technomancer a +1 dice pool bonus for all tests while he is "jumped in" and may be taken twice.

To clarify, Immersion applies in -every- situation, as long as you're jumped in. Using a drone as a relay to hack? Immersion to Hacking, EW, Matrix perception tests. Using a drone surgeon with a satlink to save someone's life from across the city in the middle ofa firefight? Immersion to Medicine, ECCM tests to resist being jammed on the fly, initiative checks, firewall+analyze tests to detect incoming hackers. Everything while jumped in. Everything everything. Immersion is expensive in terms of karma, but its a seriously underrated echo.
They also stack. A TM with a point of ware and immersion gains +4 dice on vehicle tests while jumped in, such as, say, Gunnery. Now factor in the hotsim bonus, gunnery(Ballistic) spec, a Sensors specialty on perception, and the multiprocessing echo to Observe In Detail w/ AR or VR to make Sensor tests - such as Sensor Lockon Tests as a free action, and the extra dice starts to look really, really scary.

That being said.
A simrig external accessory is a fancy trodenet that costs 1000Y/12A (a portion of 1bp)
A simrig can also be a bodyware implant, at 5000Y/8A, and 0.5 essence. (1bp)
An external smartgun system accessory costs 400Y/A4Restricted, and gives a +2 to shooting people, but only with a smartlink.
A smartlink is a eyeware-only system, with no external accessories available, costing 1000Y/8R and 0.1 essence, and pairs with a smartgun to give a good bonus.
A control rig is a headware only implant, that can't be taken elsewhere in the system. It costs 10000Y/8A, and 0.5 essence, and adds +2 dice to Vehicle tests while jumped in. (2bp)

A TM can take both Simrig and Smartlink as complex forms, for 1BP or two karma in play. They're both pieces of cyberware, clearly TMs can learn to replicate the ability of some cyberware that deals with VR/Simsense data. (Use some common senseTaking a muscle replacement as a complex form is stupid. Taking a smartlink is not.) I don't see any real reason why a technomancer shouldn't be able to learn a Control Rig complex form, particularly for a stream focusing around the concept of drone manipulation.

No, the real issue is costs. What Should a technomancer pay to get a bonus hackers do? There's two sides to the arguement. One, that TM's 'have' to pay essence to get a bonus any hacker gets to enjoy, which means their resonance 5 costs 25bp due to the lowered cap. 13 karma(which can be discounted down to 11 or for a 'mere' +1, even a really good one +1, especially when there's other echoes out there doesn't seem quite right either.
Then there's the flipside - isn't it a little unfair to let a TM take a 2BP implant, at no essence loss, for 1bp? Sure, but it counts against their Logx2 limit on complex forms, isn't that a fair trade? Fair trade, hardly, now it doesn't count against the money limit! Et cetera. It goes on.

But yeah. I don't think its imbalanced for TMs to have the ability to learn a Control Rig complex form. I would, however, impliment it as a sort of...... Unrated complex form with two levels - in the sense that if you have it, you get the bonus, it can't be threaded up because it just gives a flat +2, just to preserve costs because.... lets face it, a control rig is a fairly powerful bonus. So a TM would pay 2 karma to learn a new complex form(control rig), and two more to bring it to R2, and then they've fully learned it and get the bonus, for a grand total of 4 karma. in BP gen, it'd be two points, the same costs for a cyberhacker.

Just, you know, more resonancey. Thats my take on it, anyway.

Thats just blatandly wrong, smartlink is a vision enchament and as such can be had in anythink that takes those including contact lenses.

I've always thought that software emulation of existing dedicated hardware would be a major boon for A.I.s.
Technomancers, on the other hand, already have it easy enough that they don't need the boost.

Also, why bother with Rigging when you can go Remote Control and throw obscene dice for every task on the books?

Jumped-in Riggers Dodge with Response (capped at 6,) Remote Control Riggers Dodge with Command (Thread me to 2x Resonance.)
Jumped-in Riggers shoot with Skill + Sensor (capped at 6,) Remote Control Riggers shoot with Skill + Command (yeah, everything is handled by Command.)

Also, because Command is a Matrix action, it can benefit from Sprite assistance. Jumped in actions aren't Matrix actions by definition. Being Spoof-proof is a big boon, but you've got to invest a lot to make it worth it.

Just remember most actions takes longer when using Command to do them.

Control Device, p229 SR4A: "Note that if the action to be performed is normally a Simple Action, performing it through the Control Device action is still a Complex Action."

Anything less than a full burst is a cop-out.

With command being a complex action, most will use focus fire rules on drones

Group A focus attacks on target C
Group B focus attacks on target R

Another thing is many will simply use a script on the drones, where they are given targeting parameters and operations to do on a set signal (think IC/Agent scripting)

If target takes a single round with minimal damage, upgrade to narrow burst fire, loop to full auto narrow

So the rigger sends a simple action to transmit target id and the drones operate by their scripts

Sorry, yes, I should clarify what i meant. As a cyberware system, the only way to get it is through eyeware - no capacity in cyberlimbs, for example.

And yet, 2 karma for a CF is far cheaper than the cost of two submersions to get the two echos. So sure, the CF wouldn't 'replace' the echo, it would just be about 1/15th the cost for about 9/10ths of the benefit (Remember that gunnery is a vehicle skill)

I didn't mean it was an *identical* replacement, but carry on.

funny how this comes up every single time anyone mentions using command program/CF. please, try to understand the rules before giving advice on them. if you don't understand the rules, then *ask* for advice on them.

issuing a command is not the same thing as using the command program/CF. in fact, the two have very little in common.

issuing a command to a drone is a simple action and the drone performs the task using its own abilities on its own initiative, and never uses the command program/CF at all, in any way, shape, or form. you can issue a command to multiple drones subscribed as one, but it must be the same command to all drones. the drones could misunderstand the command if it is something they are not programmed for, although certain programs can help with this problem. the drone can be spoofed with any order.

using the command program/CF to control a drone is a complex action and the controller operates the drone using their own skill and the command program, on the operator's initiative. you can only operate one drone in this manner per action. there is no chance for a misunderstanding, because the drone is directly controlled by the operator, and has absolutely no ability to act on its own. it is probably also immune to most spoofs, other than the spoofed command to switch out of remote operation mode.

Which is why most will use the issue command option to run scripts on the drones vs a command program.

Can use 2 simple actions to handle orders for multiple drones or groups.

Hell you can have the drones scripted to respond to a free action spoken word for some orders

Yes, which is why I suggested houseruling it to cost the same as it equivalent karma/BP as it does for a cyberhacker.

If a technomancer WANTS to jump in and rig it up, instead of threadwhoring a command of 12 or more, i say let em.

the problem is that the two are not interchangeable. your drone is not going to have anywhere near the kind of ridiculous dicepool a technomancer can get using command. up to 18 dice from the command program *alone* are possible at chargen (CF base at 6, assist operation from a sprite for 6 more, and you can thread the command CF up to double it's base... so another 6). throw in a skill for up to 6 more points, a specialisation for an additional +2 (remote operation for pilot skills, ballistic most likely for gunnery, and vehicle for several other skills like dodge or infiltration), and hot sim for another +2 and you're throwing 28 dice straight out of chargen. as compared to the 10 dice which are about the best you can hope for out of a drone even after chargen (excluding handling, smartlink, and sprite powers that could potentially be applied to either).

seriously, a tricked out (and very heavily specialised) technomancer can be throwing down 20 dice on a dodge test before full dodge as soon as you start playing. a drone will be throwing 6, *if* you blow a bunch of money on a rating 6 response chip and pilot program (neither of which are available by default in chargen without the use of qualities). this is not even remotely comparable. heck, there are probably dodge adepts who dream of having that kind of passive dodge pool. (admittedly, 6 of those points use up sprite services, but you at least have the option, and even if it was "only" 12 that's still extremely high... and in any case, i think long term registering would make assist operation much more appealing).

Yup, that's why Technomancer pools should be capped harder.

You are comparing one drone vs several drones.

Don't need a tricked out drone for a group of drones (combat drones have security rated systems and hardware.. iirc 4, so add ECCM 4 + Encrypt 4 + Stealth 4 + Analyze 4 to run on them in regards to software)

And a scripted dog brain is not subject to jamming (if it can take orders verbally given) and multiple units working in a tacnet is better than 1 unit without.

And where is your uber TM rigger? Is he riding behind the drone in a wheelchair while rigged into it? Meaning he has no dodge roll to attacks against his meat body. What happens when he loses connection?

And heaven forbid your drone have to deal with some HTR security armed with the right tools to render it scrap, like grenades or area effect spells. Or something as simple as a smart jammer or static spell. And lets not forget a personal favorite: glue/web spells or equipment like freeze foam.

I'd rather have a couple dog brains working under my control with decent skills and tech, where I'm not dead meat slung over someone's shoulder or on a mobile chair because I can't remote rig the uber drone.

I don't understand what you're arguing against. It's the Technomancer that's tricked out, not the drone(s). That's kind of the whole point. You can jump from one drone to another. You can get matrix access from anywhere on the planet, and jamming problems affect all riggers equally… except, perhaps, for the nifty Resonance cheats that Technomancers can get. You can also be in a vehicle, safe and sound, instead of out in the open for no reason.

you still seem to be missing my point. the situations in which you would use either method is completely different.

comparing them as if they are both equivalent options is absurd. they are not. neither option is used for the same thing. there is never a time when the two options are in direct competition to each other. you are never going to decide whether you should use the command program/CF to control multiple drones, or to get other drones to do things using their own actions. you are never going to decide whether to use issuing orders to directly control one drone, or to use one drone more effectively than you could many drones.

the two choices are never in direct competition with each other as to which is better. they are used for different purposes. treating them as if they are used for the same thing is only going to lead to confusion.

you don't spend an awful lot of time trying to decide whether you should use a hammer or a screwdriver to put a nail into a wall, and you don't spend much time trying to decide whether to use a hammer or a screwdriver to put a screw into a wall. if i am talking about how to put a screw into a wall, and you just walk up and start suggesting someone try a hammer, and we're giving advice to someone who doesn't know much about screws, screwdrivers, hammers, and nails is just going to get very frustrated trying to pound a screw into the wall with a hammer.

Actually, it's worse than that. I KNOW I don't know the rules, but parts of this have made me wonder if anyone does.

Looking at the top of page 247 at the common rigger/drone tests table the picture is a lot clearer than this thread has been.

Jumped in = Response while Remote Control = Command with the exception of Attack, where Remote Control has the Uber Advantage of ignoring the default level 2 on the Sensors on the drone. A Technomancer can up their control easier and cheaper than they can up their reflex. OK. I get it now.

The middle column of that table is for Dog Brains. Regardless of your choice of Remote Control or Jumped in, Dog Brains is your other choice. When you jump out of your Fly-Spy and into the enemy's Steel Lynx, the Dog Brains are what drives your Fly-Spy back to the street to be picked up and dropped into a Faraday cage until you can insure it's untampered. There's a lot of use for Dog Brains but they're the OTHER thing that you do, regardless of your choice between RC or Jumped in. They may even be the thing you do better, but they're still a completely different thing.

Mind running me through this one? Technomancer gets Rea up to 6 and then.....?

Rigging dodge, not meat dodge.

Still curious to know how they manage that. Can't be with a boosted command CF, because using the command CF/program requires a complex action.

Jumped-In dodge pool is Command, so I assume that's how.

Edit: Sorry, that's *Remote Controlled*, not Jumped-In.

the action is controlling the drone on their IP. using their already-existing control to dodge is no more an action for someone using a command CF than it is for someone rigging the drone. or perhaps you think that as soon as the controllers action phase is over, their control over the drone ends? if so, that's just silly. the remote control option has you spend your action at one specific point, but that action spent represents your actions over the entire turn. the drone being shot at may be resolved at a different time than the person controlling the drone resolves their actions, but that is for convenience only, because turn-based is a lot easier to resolve than real-time when it comes to pen and paper games.

No, command doesn't allow you to dodge for the drone. It allows you to execute a single action for the drone with the command program. Anything other than that single action is done by the drone itself. The command program doesn't give you overarching control over the drone, it simply allows you to issue a single command, which it executes. If you want overarching control over the drone, you jump into it.

The command program isn't the same as being jumped in except with a program. It is the same as telling the drone (very specifically and elaborately, thus the big DP) how to do one thing, after which it is on its own again.

you are directly controlling the drone. the drone is never controlling itself. if it was, then you could pull BS like using command to fire the drone's guns on your IP and then having the drone fire its guns on its IP, which is not the case.

*shrug* Check the chart: Jumped-In Defense is Command, Jumped-In Full Defense is Command + Dodge.

Edit: Sorry, *Remote Controlled* in place of 'Jumped-In' in my statement. But, that's what the OP was talking about, so it's still right.

p. 245 Sr4A

Under "ISSUING COMMANDS"
"You give a short command to the drone or other device with the
Issuing Command action (p. 245).The drone attempts to execute
those orders autonomously on its own action phase. You need to be
able to communicate with the drone, via the Matrix for example, but
do not need to be subscribed to the drone."

under "REMOTE CONTROL"
"You control a device by running the Command program. You may
control only one drone at a time, and must have an active subscription
to that drone. You use your Command rating in place of the attribute
for the dice pool for any action you take (except for Perception Tests,
which use the drone’s Sensor rating in place of your Perception)."

Those are the other modes besides JUMPING IN also on the same page
"You “jump into” a drone via full VR. This requires a subscription to
the drone, vehicle, or device and takes a Simple Action. When jumped
in, the rigger essentially “becomes” the drone, perceiving through its
sensors and operating it as if it were his own body. A rigger who has
jumped into a drone can issue commands to other drones, but cannot
control them remotely."

That "Issue Command (p. 245 )" is actually supposed to be p. 229 where it is listed as a Simple Action