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Sephiroth
post Jul 24 2010, 11:46 PM
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QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jul 24 2010, 05:38 PM) *
Your GM is just outright insane. One year realtime of sessions before you can initiate? Goddamn!

This.

You and your GM need to have a little chat, methinks.
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Voran
post Jul 24 2010, 11:47 PM
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Hm. Not really a change in my opinion over the decades when it comes to gaming: If there is a disconnect between players intention of game and GM/DM intention of game, you need to ask if its really worth it. RPG groups are kinda like ..well...any other relationship. Is the headache worth staying together? Is it just a phase? Is it part of the natural cycle of things and its just 'down time' at the moment? Is it horribly abusive and the game is only held together with codependent behavior?

Also, as in all relationships, communication is required. If you just sit around (not you you, you 'general population' you) and bitch and moan but don't actually take any action to rectify the behavior, discuss it or otherwise with the party you're having difficulties with (GM, other players, whatever), well..its like voting. You don't vote. You can't bitch.

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Traul
post Jul 25 2010, 02:07 AM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jul 24 2010, 09:20 PM) *
Race: Elf

Elves may not become vampires, only the much weaker banshees. Not sure you will have an easier time to convince your GM with that, though.
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Glyph
post Jul 25 2010, 02:29 AM
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Banshees are not bad. They don't get the Agility, Reaction, and Charisma boost, but they have the two main biggies, regeneration and mist form. They also have the fear power, a nice bonus.

If a player deliberately sought out being infected, though, I would make them pay the Karma cost for it, same as any other quality, and I would consider that simply being fair, rather than "anti-powergaming". Similarly, if a character sought out a spirit pact with a powerful free spirit, there would have to be a significant benefit to it for the spirit. And most spirits would shy away from a hidden life or formula pact with someone involved in a dangerous occupation such as shadowrunning.
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Lanlaorn
post Jul 25 2010, 02:35 AM
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I don't think the danger of your career really matters for a Formula Pact, if you die the spirit loses nothing it's just that while you're alive the spirit can't be touched. It's much more an issue of trust, because you now count as a copy of it's formula, you know it's true name. So not only could you trivially bind it yourself but you could sell that right to anyone as well. Or, obviously, use the true name in that specialized combat spell to kill the Free Spirit, etc.
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Cain
post Jul 25 2010, 05:36 AM
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Powergaming occurs when one character's power level starts to ruin the enjoyment of the other players.

Granted, the GM is also a player, but he seems to be swinging the nerf-bat a little too hard. Yes, high-level initiates can raise the power level of a game quickly. But so can Delta 'ware, mil-spec weaponry, high rating programs and sprites, and so on and so forth. Shadowrun is a game about force inflation-- you shouldn't expect to be facing the same threat level one year into the game.
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toturi
post Jul 25 2010, 07:04 AM
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QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Jul 25 2010, 04:10 AM) *
I think this is the key statement. Really, the more powerful you and your teammates become the more powerful your adversaries become. Being more powerful doesn't really mean that you have a higher chance of staying alive. The threat should be adjusted to match the power level of the characters. The upshot of a game with more powerful characters is that you really can't tell certain types of stories anymore. Many mission types just don't make any sense and would never pay the kind of money that a team of powerful baddasses would demand. Maybe your GM wants to tell the kind of stories that only happen when the game is more 'street.'

The more powerful you and your teammates become the more powerful the adversaries that can challenge you become. Being more powerful does mean that those badasses that would have owned your asses before might not do the same now. Being more powerful only doesn't mean that you have a higher chance of staying alive if your GM escalates. There should be plausible in-game reasons why the threat are adjusted to match the power level of the characters. If for example the PCs are content to stay small time, then it would be less plausible why the PCs are going to bump into Red Samurai on their next job.

When I GM, I allow my players' actions to decide whether I increase the threat level or not. Even when they become more "powerful", the threat doesn't necessarily become stronger. The cops on the street before initiation are going to be the same as the cops on the street after they initiated. The corpsec mage commander doesn't suddenly pull a Yoda and say,"More powerful intruders in our facility, there will be. Strengthen our patrols, we must."
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Laodicea
post Jul 25 2010, 07:25 AM
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Unless the corpsec mage is really good at divination.
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Critias
post Jul 25 2010, 10:32 AM
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My personal definition of powergaming: When a character ceases to be a character, and becomes nothing more than a collection of die pools and fancy toys. It's not about power level, it's about role playing. I've run adventures -- seriously -- with fifteen karma characters alongside 200+ karma street samurai alongside 500+ karma mage-adepts. If everyone stays in character and is having a good time, if everyone's character is well made and makes sense for who and what they are, and if the GM does his share to make things appropriately threatening and give everyone a chance to shine, the rest of it can take care of itself.

My personal suggestion: Talk to your GM, not us. Ranting and venting and complaining about your game on the internet isn't going to change anything at your game table. I sincerely doubt you're going to get some sort of e-petition together and try to tell him that twenty Dumpshockers think his character is fine and he's a shitty GM, so he should start to change. The internet alone can't tell you if something is wrong with your game table, and the internet can't fix it for you. Talk to your GM. He's your friend, he runs your game, he knows his campaign goals and game desires better than we do.
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Machiavelli
post Jul 25 2010, 11:38 AM
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Thank you all for your opinions. I will have a talk with my GM, it won´t get worse than it already is.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 25 2010, 12:14 PM
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Probably not.
But then, aside from the group breaking up over this, i don't really see how it concieveably COULD get worse anyway . .
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Machiavelli
post Jul 25 2010, 12:27 PM
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Hmmja, but the worst thing that will happen, is that i am not playing anymore. The other part of the group doesn´t have that much expectations in the game that i have and are therefore not that dissappointed in the actual happenings. We will see...
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Stahlseele
post Jul 25 2010, 01:06 PM
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Viel Glück.
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Neraph
post Jul 25 2010, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jul 24 2010, 01:20 PM) *
Here is my char. If THAT is powergaming, the term really has changed since i play SR ^^

Here´s my char. I don´t have anything in mind, but i think you can get a clue:
[ Spoiler ]

Eclectic, at best.

1) A good alternative to Astral Perception is Magic Sense. You can't fight anything astrally, but you can know when something is afoot and summon a spirit to deal with it.

2a) Body of 4 is neccessary. The difference between 8/8 armor and 6/6 armor is significant, not to mention using Arsenal to get 10/9 armor with a 4 Bod.
2b) Reaction is essential, even to mages. Same goes with Agility. It really looks like you neglected your physical stats in favor of higher mental ones. Not neccessarily bad, but it can come back to bite you.

3) Edge is amazing. Don't skimp on it.

4) Spells. Since you're focused on Manipulation, you should really pick up some more of those spells. I suggest Control Thoughts, Suggest, and Shapechange, if no other spells. These three would massively help your character out.

5) Get clever with your spirits. Movement and Concealment should be active at all times - Long Term bind a spirit with those two powers on at least you (your team as well, if you think they'll be around for a year in-game). Have spirits use Accident on enemies, and Fear targets. Summon a Spirit of Man with Control Thoughts as well and take two enemies and turn them into temporary friends. Use Long Term Binding on a spirit to have it Aid Spellcasting you. Again, be clever.

EDIT:

6) Get Improved Reflexes, and get used to being on Psyche.
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Neraph
post Jul 25 2010, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (Ryu @ Jul 24 2010, 04:00 PM) *
A powergaming mage would have Magic 5, the Magician quality, and 20 BP worth of foci.

No, a powergaming mage would have access to Magic 10 and a Charisma of 12 and Willpower of 12 (his drain stats) within minutes of game start. Also, he would never drink, eat, or sleep, constantly be on the move, and be virtually indetectable to Assensing, even with spells active and sustained.

And he would only get more powerful with time.
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Cain
post Jul 25 2010, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 25 2010, 10:43 AM) *
No, a powergaming mage would have access to Magic 10 and a Charisma of 12 and Willpower of 12 (his drain stats) within minutes of game start. Also, he would never drink, eat, or sleep, constantly be on the move, and be virtually indetectable to Assensing, even with spells active and sustained.

And he would only get more powerful with time.

No, a powergaming mage would have this when the rest of the team still has stats of 3 and 4, and dicepools of under 10. Basically, he'd be overshadowing the rest of the party at every turn. If the rest of the team is equivalent in power, then he's not powergamaing.
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Ryu
post Jul 25 2010, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 25 2010, 07:43 PM) *
No, a powergaming mage would have access to Magic 10 and a Charisma of 12 and Willpower of 12 (his drain stats) within minutes of game start. Also, he would never drink, eat, or sleep, constantly be on the move, and be virtually indetectable to Assensing, even with spells active and sustained.

And he would only get more powerful with time.

By possession or how? I prefer materialisation traditions. As for Cha 12 / Will 9, that´s what Sustaining Foci (Health) are good for. Force 5 is what you can get with Restricted Gear. Another option is getting Restricted Gear for a power focus rating 4.
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Technowired
post Jul 27 2010, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 25 2010, 10:32 AM) *
My personal definition of powergaming: When a character ceases to be a character, and becomes nothing more than a collection of die pools and fancy toys. It's not about power level, it's about role playing. I've run adventures -- seriously -- with fifteen karma characters alongside 200+ karma street samurai alongside 500+ karma mage-adepts. If everyone stays in character and is having a good time, if everyone's character is well made and makes sense for who and what they are, and if the GM does his share to make things appropriately threatening and give everyone a chance to shine, the rest of it can take care of itself.

My personal suggestion: Talk to your GM, not us. Ranting and venting and complaining about your game on the internet isn't going to change anything at your game table. I sincerely doubt you're going to get some sort of e-petition together and try to tell him that twenty Dumpshockers think his character is fine and he's a shitty GM, so he should start to change. The internet alone can't tell you if something is wrong with your game table, and the internet can't fix it for you. Talk to your GM. He's your friend, he runs your game, he knows his campaign goals and game desires better than we do.


this
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Technowired
post Jul 27 2010, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 25 2010, 10:32 AM) *
My personal definition of powergaming: When a character ceases to be a character, and becomes nothing more than a collection of die pools and fancy toys. It's not about power level, it's about role playing. I've run adventures -- seriously -- with fifteen karma characters alongside 200+ karma street samurai alongside 500+ karma mage-adepts. If everyone stays in character and is having a good time, if everyone's character is well made and makes sense for who and what they are, and if the GM does his share to make things appropriately threatening and give everyone a chance to shine, the rest of it can take care of itself.

My personal suggestion: Talk to your GM, not us. Ranting and venting and complaining about your game on the internet isn't going to change anything at your game table. I sincerely doubt you're going to get some sort of e-petition together and try to tell him that twenty Dumpshockers think his character is fine and he's a shitty GM, so he should start to change. The internet alone can't tell you if something is wrong with your game table, and the internet can't fix it for you. Talk to your GM. He's your friend, he runs your game, he knows his campaign goals and game desires better than we do.


this
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Daylen
post Jul 27 2010, 11:23 PM
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I draw the line on powergaming where someone is breaking the rules by the letter or spirit. So I think that means I done draw the line on powergaming, but on cheating. If a player wants to Initiate and pays for it and goes through all the bs that is required then fine. If a player wants to have a cool gun and finds every mod to a gun that gives -1 recoil and some of the mods are not compatible or do not (or should not) stack, then I have a problem.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 27 2010, 11:26 PM
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why?
what's the difference that makes you see a pimped out gun for which the player/character paid good bloody money as a problem while the initiation which makes a magician stronger in almost every single magical regard is not a problem?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 27 2010, 11:34 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 27 2010, 05:26 PM) *
why?
what's the difference that makes you see a pimped out gun for which the player/character paid good bloody money as a problem while the initiation which makes a magician stronger in almost every single magical regard is not a problem?


Yeah, especially if the Gun mods are completely legal? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Stahlseele
post Jul 27 2010, 11:39 PM
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And ANYTHING Magic above Force 3 needs to be registered and you need to have a license for that.
Technically, Magic is MORE illegal that these gun-mods in some cases . .
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Daylen
post Jul 27 2010, 11:44 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 27 2010, 11:26 PM) *
why?
what's the difference that makes you see a pimped out gun for which the player/character paid good bloody money as a problem while the initiation which makes a magician stronger in almost every single magical regard is not a problem?

Perhaps I was not clear enough. If a player pays for mods to a gun fine. If a player pays for mods to a gun that has non-stackable benefits fine. If a player pays for mods to a gun that has non-stackable benefits and the player stacks the benefits and thus goes against the rules as written not fine, because the player is cheating.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 27 2010, 11:52 PM
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THAT i can live with . . it just sounded like the gunbunny getting the most bang for his buck *snickers* was somehow a problem while the same did not apply to magicians . . which is an instand red haze for me . .
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