I have a little problem and i hope you can help me with your opinions: my GM hates powergaming and therefore stands in our way (especially in the way of awakened chars.) every time he fears our development could go in this direction.

Unfortunately (for me) i am playing a black mage whose whole intention or better "meaning of existance" is to become more powerful. Up to now the GM only hindered us by becoming initiates, at least make it a very time-intensíve process ("waiting time of one year realtime minimum"). But in the meantime he bought the new core-books "dawn of the articfacts" and "ghost cartels" which made him (finally) clear that initiation is nothing exceptional anymore. In comparison with the potential enemies in these books, our awakened chars. look like beginners (even though the already earned around 100 karma).

Suddenly he told us we should initiate as quick as possible to stand a little chance agaings the future dangers. So far so good, but i would´t be a good black mage if that would be my real and final goal. I am looking forward becoming infected or establish a spirit pact with a powerful free spirit. But things like that are suddenly again too much "powergaming". I also tried to go another way by becoming "powerful" through financial power. So i saved all my earned money, searched for a fixer that could sell an magical-laboratory and spent a lot of time to create orichalcum. As i wanted to sell it, he offered me only a quarter of the value and finally we lost everything becaue the whole orichalcum was stolen. His explanation for this was "i don´t want superchars in my game".

Now i really have to say, that i am lacking perspectives for my character to develop. I was going to get the metatechnique of fastening, but i don´t think that several high-power spells made permanent on my char. are less "powergaming" than becoming infected or whatever. My replacement char. on the other hand, is a mage with a possession-tradition that is specialized in summoning and is running around with maximum physical attributes and 12 points of hardened armor all the time...and no word of powergaming.

Maybe i am too focused on my point of view, therefore i need some other opinions. Thank you.

Your GM is just outright insane. One year realtime of sessions before you can initiate? Goddamn!

Just point out his crazy bullshit doesn't prevent powergaming, it just changes what you need to do to powergame. As you mentioned, cockblocking initiation? Ok, your Possession based summoner is overpowered right out of the box, no need to initiate.

At the very least get him to explain why he thinks your characters being badasses is somehow wrong.

I'm sorry to sound like the broken record of first responders, but your GM is a bad GM and you should seek a new one.

That said, and barring that, I would need to see your character and his spare karma to get ideas. Don't forget long-term binding, giving you really interesting power options, and take a look at my spirit thread linked in my signature for more ideas. Bloodmourne would help you out tremendously.

Also, Possession spirits increase the "base" attribute, also increasing the augmented maximum. So a human with a F6 spirit possessing him has 7/12(18) max stats.

EDIT: And if you were wondering... I've not seen a line that I wouldn't cross in "powergaming." The term itself is very nebulous - what it means to one person is not what it means to another. For example, having 30+ armor may be powergaming to one, where to another that's considered stock. Or starting from chargen with 6 Magic is powergaming to one, while to another being able to hit 10 from chargen is standard for another.

My GM's powergaming line is the 20 die cap. But anyways, it may sound like your GM may not be fully aware of how SR scales power wise. It's not like say, d&d where you can start conquering cities at level 10. It's still a very lethal game if you screw up no matter how powerful you are.

I think this is the basic difference between powergamers and "norms". I, as a powergamer, think that the more powerful my char. is, the higher is the chance that i stay alive AND keep my fellowers alive. But i can also think that it makes the work of a GM harder because he cannot attack with standard grunts anymore. It would be like everybody would be a Ryanthusar, and we have to be honest, nobody liked this ass.^^

Anyway it don´t make sense refusing a player becoming a vampire during play (we know that it f***s with magic, and i PAY for it, a LOT, and no GM should rule what i do with MY karma that i have earned with blood and sweat) while a common first-day-of-play voodoo-priest outclasses my char in every way.

Just so it is said... Your interpretation on Attributes with Possession Spirits is only an interpretation (and possibly flawed), and is hotly contested here on Dumpshock. The general consensus is that Possession still caps the Attributes at Metatype maximums, regardless of the spirits power (for example, Human maximum stat is a 9 in all stats)... not everyone agrees with this (I know that you do not), but I did want to point this out.

Isn´t this problem already and OFFICALLY cleared via the newest errata on the official homepage? You are still limited to your races maximum attributes...but anyway, there is no other way to boost all your physical attributes at ONCE, neither with magic not with cyber or bioware.

I would agree with the others. Your GM seems a very restrictive with his interpretation of power gaming. I generally classify power gaming based on the whole party. If everyone in the group is going to play 'over the top munchkins' or vampire mages or whatever, you just scale the threat to reflect that. The only time I really take issue with power gaming is when it is just one player doing it. The scope of the campaign should be set out at the beginning and having one player trying to exceed that while the others stay with in it makes things unfun for the other players and leads to disappointment on the part of the power gamer. Best to set out the limits at the beginning and make your characters based on what power level the campaign is going for. You can always change it later.

Yeah, i agree: sounds bad.

I for example have a player who REALLY likes his powergaming too. But the thing in SR is: There is ALWAYS a way to get people. And there are right and wrong things to do as a gm.

For example: My people earn a lot of karma. They were doing run after run without any vacation or anything. So the mage (a maxed pixie) had enough karma to initiate after a month and then a few weeks after that again. I as a gm always said: Hm, maybe you want to save karma to raise magic, maybe learn dodge or get your physical attributes higher? He didn't do it, fine. So let him have his dozens of initiations... he still can't dodge a bullet except with his edge. Sure a powergaming magician murders his way through thousands of people and overshadows the whole group. (The pixie has 4 IP's and dishes out normaly rating 7 stunbolts with no drain - pretty much dropping one opponent per IP - BUT that is his choice, not mine)

I on the other hand will, when it is realistic, get back at him. Everything has consequences, and being the most dangerous thing in the whole plex has a lot of disadvantages.

Your gm should let you do your thing and not invent horrible unfair limits or maliciously trying to damage you. BUT ALSO: selling unlicensed orichalcum out of your lab may get some reactions. Also yes, you may be forced to sell for less, of course. But just saying: Meh, nobody will buy unless you go down to 1/4 is bullshit. The whole thing with the initiation: BAH... a YEAR? I mean, yeah i always needs to enforce a bit time on my pixie too. But i at least say: one month, or until you have learned something significant about magic and yourself. (An extensive meta-quest for example)

Can't find it, it's probably in Digital Grimiore, but there's a line of text that states that possessing spirits increase the target's attributes and maximums. And yeah, I know it's hotly debated. This is Dumpshock - everything is hotly debated.

(Critter) Form/Shapeshift.

@Neraph: 100% agree.^^
@Summerstorm: this is also my intention. I just like the feeling that "I" know that i am more powerful than most of my competitors, but we all know that it is a very bad idea to draw too much attention on you. There is always somebody more powerful than yourself.

But anyway, i play a role-playing-game, and if i didn´t understand something terribly wrong, character development and the fact that "i" decide what my char. is doing, is one if not THE basics of an RPG. If i cannot do that, i don´t have to play one.

Well, it is not an Errata, it is a FAQ... But yes, that is the argument anyways...

And Critter Form/Shapechange is very good indeed for Stat Boosts...

right, the obilgatory exception to the rule.^^

Erratta....FAQ....baaaah....it is official...

Heheheh...

Here is my char. If THAT is powergaming, the term really has changed since i play SR ^^

Here´s my char. I don´t have anything in mind, but i think you can get a clue:

Race: Elf
Class: Mystical Adept
Tradition: Black Mage
Mentor Spirit: Dark Goddess (+2 on combat and healing spells)

Body: 3
Strenght: 1
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2

Willpower: 5
Logic: 2
Charisma: 7
Intuition: 5

Magic: 6 (1 point dedicated to adept powers, rest to magic)
Edge: 2

Spells:
Manabolt
Manaball
Fireball
Imp. Invisibility
Physical Mask
Levitation
Detect Life
Heal
Prophylaxis
Armor
...and some more. Can´t remember them all.

Skills:

Summoning (Fire-spirits): 5(+2)
Binding (Fire-spirits): 5(+2)
Spellcasting (Manipulation): 5(+2)
Counterspelling (Combat): 5(+2)
Astral Combat: 1
Perception: 4
Arkana: 1
dontknowtheskillname (Alchemy): 2(+2)
Influence skillgroup: 1
- raised negotiation (bargaining): 2(+2)

Adept powers:
- Astral perception

There is no power-gaming, as long as it's fun for everybody and you don't overshadow the others, as long as you don't whine if someone else finds a way to deal with you.
That said, your GM is a dick. First only offering you a QUARTER of what your Orcichalcum was worth and then simply having it STOLEN probably witohut giving you a say about the matter by playing it out either . . Then telling you that he does not want strong characters in his game, even though he KNOWS your characters are too weak . . Try and accuse him of Power-Gaming himself on the GM side. Just to see his reaction . . he's probably launch into a gread old tirade about how he is not a roll-player, but a role-player, someone who is pure in the ways of gaming and all that shit . .
Kill of your one character, make your other character somehow gain possession of all of the old ones stuff . . now THERE is some serious power-gaming . .
It's akin to making a new character, get everything in ressources and pour it into buying something like gold or diamonds, then leaving a map for another character where to find it and sending the first character somewhere to die . . but not as bad of course . .

Long story short:
I draw the line where it's not fun anymore for someone i am playing with . .
Be it the GM or another character. Only exception is, when i deliberately want to be a bit mean to someone for whatever reason.
And then i am not doing it constantly.

I think this is the key statement. Really, the more powerful you and your teammates become the more powerful your adversaries become. Being more powerful doesn't really mean that you have a higher chance of staying alive. The threat should be adjusted to match the power level of the characters. The upshot of a game with more powerful characters is that you really can't tell certain types of stories anymore. Many mission types just don't make any sense and would never pay the kind of money that a team of powerful baddasses would demand. Maybe your GM wants to tell the kind of stories that only happen when the game is more 'street.'

The fundamental problem here sounds like you want to play one kind of SR game and your GM wants to play an entirely different kind. The current contest between you and your GM sounds like no fun at all. Neither of you gets the kind of play you want to see. The whole situation sounds unpleasantly adversarial and will only be solved when the players and the GM come to a compromise about the style of SR game they want to participate in.

Do the other players want to have a high power game and the GM is the only hold-out? Neither of you is wrong, but you have to talk this out or find a different GM.

First: It does seem as though your GM has had bad experiences in the past with "power-creep" and he has gotten seriously - SERIOUSLY - gun shy of powerful characters. But, that said, he doesn't seem to be too bright if he thinks that you possession tradition mage with a Force-6 spirit is not powerful (that Hardened Armor of 12 is rough). We found that out when we tried a "high-powered" game a few years ago.

He just needs to remember one thing: the GM can always pull out bigger "guns." When it is a PC vs GM thing (something it should never, ever become) the GM will win out everytime.

As seen by the bad example of the GM simply stealing something from the character that the player worked long and hard for to obtain . .

Compare your dice pools to other PCs. If your more than 3 dice over their highest die pools, tone it down. Its very easy in 4e to outshine other characters buy spending your improvements better than the other guys. To some extent this has always been true. Magic I think is potentially way more powerful than past editions on starting characters but balances out more over time (overcasting, swingy spirit summoning and mind magic). Perhaps your GM just isn't comfortable enough with 4e to know how to put challenges in front of you without messing up the rest of the party.

The reaction your GM shows is appropiate for stuff like your replacement character. The specimen submitted here is clearly minmaxed (not a bad idea for BP gen chars), but hardly powergaming.

The primary dicepools are a bit low, compared to the stuff you should be able to do but can´t. Levitate is not a replacement for Athletics, as it has to be sustained.
Improved Invisibility is no full repleacement for Infiltration.
Each time you are attacked, you will also be hit. Many Street Samurai will have a Reaction attribute on par with your base initiative. Which does not get better with body 3. Suppressive fire is not kind to those with lowish armor, low Reaction, and no Edge to speak of.

You do have decent damage output with solid drain resistance. A powergaming mage would have Magic 5, the Magician quality, and 20 BP worth of foci.

Try to avoid framing this as "power-gamer vs. GM", and keep in mind that out of everyone sitting at the table, the guy who's putting the most effort and work into the game doesn't even get to play.

What you need is an honest and open discussion that is not adversarial. Talk it out. You have needs and desires in Shadowrun, and so does your GM. Where do those meet and overlap?

Mesh

I would try to have a chat with the gm

Sounds a lot like one I delt with... you pretty much developed your character his way for the game or left.

I finally left after asking him if I didn't get the script for the game, since he wanted us to act and do things in a specific manner rather than develop our own characters.

This.

You and your GM need to have a little chat, methinks.

Hm. Not really a change in my opinion over the decades when it comes to gaming: If there is a disconnect between players intention of game and GM/DM intention of game, you need to ask if its really worth it. RPG groups are kinda like ..well...any other relationship. Is the headache worth staying together? Is it just a phase? Is it part of the natural cycle of things and its just 'down time' at the moment? Is it horribly abusive and the game is only held together with codependent behavior?

Also, as in all relationships, communication is required. If you just sit around (not you you, you 'general population' you) and bitch and moan but don't actually take any action to rectify the behavior, discuss it or otherwise with the party you're having difficulties with (GM, other players, whatever), well..its like voting. You don't vote. You can't bitch.

Elves may not become vampires, only the much weaker banshees. Not sure you will have an easier time to convince your GM with that, though.

Banshees are not bad. They don't get the Agility, Reaction, and Charisma boost, but they have the two main biggies, regeneration and mist form. They also have the fear power, a nice bonus.

If a player deliberately sought out being infected, though, I would make them pay the Karma cost for it, same as any other quality, and I would consider that simply being fair, rather than "anti-powergaming". Similarly, if a character sought out a spirit pact with a powerful free spirit, there would have to be a significant benefit to it for the spirit. And most spirits would shy away from a hidden life or formula pact with someone involved in a dangerous occupation such as shadowrunning.

I don't think the danger of your career really matters for a Formula Pact, if you die the spirit loses nothing it's just that while you're alive the spirit can't be touched. It's much more an issue of trust, because you now count as a copy of it's formula, you know it's true name. So not only could you trivially bind it yourself but you could sell that right to anyone as well. Or, obviously, use the true name in that specialized combat spell to kill the Free Spirit, etc.

Powergaming occurs when one character's power level starts to ruin the enjoyment of the other players.

Granted, the GM is also a player, but he seems to be swinging the nerf-bat a little too hard. Yes, high-level initiates can raise the power level of a game quickly. But so can Delta 'ware, mil-spec weaponry, high rating programs and sprites, and so on and so forth. Shadowrun is a game about force inflation-- you shouldn't expect to be facing the same threat level one year into the game.

The more powerful you and your teammates become the more powerful the adversaries that can challenge you become. Being more powerful does mean that those badasses that would have owned your asses before might not do the same now. Being more powerful only doesn't mean that you have a higher chance of staying alive if your GM escalates. There should be plausible in-game reasons why the threat are adjusted to match the power level of the characters. If for example the PCs are content to stay small time, then it would be less plausible why the PCs are going to bump into Red Samurai on their next job.

When I GM, I allow my players' actions to decide whether I increase the threat level or not. Even when they become more "powerful", the threat doesn't necessarily become stronger. The cops on the street before initiation are going to be the same as the cops on the street after they initiated. The corpsec mage commander doesn't suddenly pull a Yoda and say,"More powerful intruders in our facility, there will be. Strengthen our patrols, we must."

Unless the corpsec mage is really good at divination.

My personal definition of powergaming: When a character ceases to be a character, and becomes nothing more than a collection of die pools and fancy toys. It's not about power level, it's about role playing. I've run adventures -- seriously -- with fifteen karma characters alongside 200+ karma street samurai alongside 500+ karma mage-adepts. If everyone stays in character and is having a good time, if everyone's character is well made and makes sense for who and what they are, and if the GM does his share to make things appropriately threatening and give everyone a chance to shine, the rest of it can take care of itself.

My personal suggestion: Talk to your GM, not us. Ranting and venting and complaining about your game on the internet isn't going to change anything at your game table. I sincerely doubt you're going to get some sort of e-petition together and try to tell him that twenty Dumpshockers think his character is fine and he's a shitty GM, so he should start to change. The internet alone can't tell you if something is wrong with your game table, and the internet can't fix it for you. Talk to your GM. He's your friend, he runs your game, he knows his campaign goals and game desires better than we do.

Thank you all for your opinions. I will have a talk with my GM, it won´t get worse than it already is.

Probably not.
But then, aside from the group breaking up over this, i don't really see how it concieveably COULD get worse anyway . .

Hmmja, but the worst thing that will happen, is that i am not playing anymore. The other part of the group doesn´t have that much expectations in the game that i have and are therefore not that dissappointed in the actual happenings. We will see...

Viel Glück.

Eclectic, at best.

1) A good alternative to Astral Perception is Magic Sense. You can't fight anything astrally, but you can know when something is afoot and summon a spirit to deal with it.

2a) Body of 4 is neccessary. The difference between 8/8 armor and 6/6 armor is significant, not to mention using Arsenal to get 10/9 armor with a 4 Bod.
2b) Reaction is essential, even to mages. Same goes with Agility. It really looks like you neglected your physical stats in favor of higher mental ones. Not neccessarily bad, but it can come back to bite you.

3) Edge is amazing. Don't skimp on it.

4) Spells. Since you're focused on Manipulation, you should really pick up some more of those spells. I suggest Control Thoughts, Suggest, and Shapechange, if no other spells. These three would massively help your character out.

5) Get clever with your spirits. Movement and Concealment should be active at all times - Long Term bind a spirit with those two powers on at least you (your team as well, if you think they'll be around for a year in-game). Have spirits use Accident on enemies, and Fear targets. Summon a Spirit of Man with Control Thoughts as well and take two enemies and turn them into temporary friends. Use Long Term Binding on a spirit to have it Aid Spellcasting you. Again, be clever.

EDIT:

6) Get Improved Reflexes, and get used to being on Psyche.

No, a powergaming mage would have access to Magic 10 and a Charisma of 12 and Willpower of 12 (his drain stats) within minutes of game start. Also, he would never drink, eat, or sleep, constantly be on the move, and be virtually indetectable to Assensing, even with spells active and sustained.

And he would only get more powerful with time.

No, a powergaming mage would have this when the rest of the team still has stats of 3 and 4, and dicepools of under 10. Basically, he'd be overshadowing the rest of the party at every turn. If the rest of the team is equivalent in power, then he's not powergamaing.

By possession or how? I prefer materialisation traditions. As for Cha 12 / Will 9, that´s what Sustaining Foci (Health) are good for. Force 5 is what you can get with Restricted Gear. Another option is getting Restricted Gear for a power focus rating 4.

this

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I draw the line on powergaming where someone is breaking the rules by the letter or spirit. So I think that means I done draw the line on powergaming, but on cheating. If a player wants to Initiate and pays for it and goes through all the bs that is required then fine. If a player wants to have a cool gun and finds every mod to a gun that gives -1 recoil and some of the mods are not compatible or do not (or should not) stack, then I have a problem.

why?
what's the difference that makes you see a pimped out gun for which the player/character paid good bloody money as a problem while the initiation which makes a magician stronger in almost every single magical regard is not a problem?

Yeah, especially if the Gun mods are completely legal?

And ANYTHING Magic above Force 3 needs to be registered and you need to have a license for that.
Technically, Magic is MORE illegal that these gun-mods in some cases . .

Perhaps I was not clear enough. If a player pays for mods to a gun fine. If a player pays for mods to a gun that has non-stackable benefits fine. If a player pays for mods to a gun that has non-stackable benefits and the player stacks the benefits and thus goes against the rules as written not fine, because the player is cheating.

THAT i can live with . . it just sounded like the gunbunny getting the most bang for his buck *snickers* was somehow a problem while the same did not apply to magicians . . which is an instand red haze for me . .