This is how I see it as well.

Though on the initial stall on initiation my only issue was it was real time not game time. I have no problem with a GM saying in game it takes time to put the rituals together in order to initiate and can only be done once a year or some other but of whatever to flesh out the game world. Real time just makes it arbitrary limits on advancement. Which I would not have a problem with if stated in advance. Not everyone wants there game to advance fast, and initiation is a significant shift in power for a mage. Similarly a game I played in recently was placed in 2050 so no bioware, geneware etc. A bit of a hit to me since I was spinning up a Sam. But I knew in advance and I still wanted to play and make my Sam and he was still fun and awesome to play. But not knowing is a pain, giving and then taking things away with no way to stop it is a pain etc. Heck if the GM just comes ot you and says hey dude, I know you got Y in the last adventure but the vorpal sword is just too freakin powerful I should not have put it in the game. Can I have it stolen or something from you? Most players I know would say sure go for it, I might add something on how I'd like it to be taken to make a cooler story but that is it.

I draw the line in the sand!

DEATH TO GUN BUNNIES!!!! for they are the wrong bunnies!


...the right kind are of the playboy type...

Personally, I draw the line where the fun stops.

Because.... at its heart, shadowrun is a group activity. Its fun for several people, not just you. When you have a player so into the numbers and stats it takes up so much time and effort and ruins it for everyone else. I'm guessing that most game tables and groups have had to deal with a Mortal Kombat 3: Rules Lawyering Asshat vs GameMaster at some point. And it just sucks for everyone.
Even at the casual level, well-planned or somewhat optimized character can start to leave their companions in the dust, and when you start to have party imbalance, well, it makes people feel left out or feeling useless, like they're not contributing.

There's a time and a place for discussing rules, and coming up with crazy absurd shit like pun-pun. But coming up with it, and using it in a game are two completely different scenarios. When powergaming messes with everyone people game, or their enjoyment of it, its time to draw the line and stop.

That being said, optimization and good roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, and I really wish more people would realize it.

Emphasis mine.

The problem with the quote is that What does not, and What SHOULD NOT, stack is often a matter of opinion that does not always agree with the published rules... Just because someone does not agree with the rule does not necessarily mean that the rule is wrong...

Sorry, just wanted to point that out...

Purely in the name of rational inquiry: Where's the bar set for being a character?

And what if you're a *bad* collection of dice pools and toys? Not exactly 'power' gaming.

And let's not forget that you can take things too far in the opposite direction. A Charisma 1 character shouldn't be able to roleplay his way past a savvy guard, except to mess things up. Drama Queens are as much of a problem as power gamers, they're just not as common.

My own personal definition of powergaming is that it is only one of several ways that a single person can play in such a way that he or she is not in synch with the rest of the group. Powergaming doesn't happen in a vacuum. That's why I think it is such a good idea for a GM to set some expectations as to power level before the game starts.

I think the powergaming label can be overused, though. It's one thing if you are playing completely differently than everyone else. It's another thing when someone else gets pissy because your character is more effective than theirs is. I have little sympathy for that. Especially for intentionally gimped characters. If roleplaying is overwhelmingly important to you, then someone else having more dice for pistols shouldn't matter to you.

We call that being a powerlamer.

DA-dm-Tsh

In the more mechanistic game systems, I'd agree. In others... them drama queens seems to flock to those like fat queen bees to royal jelly and you wonder if you took a wrong turn somewhere and ended up in acting class.

*shrugs*

I know it when I see it, and I imagine most folks do, too. I'm not a judge or lawyer and this isn't a court of law, so I'm not going to be able to quote specifics to you, or cite examples, or call up precedents; I just know the caliber of role playing I like to see, and what I expect at my game table. As long as those expectations are met, and everyone's role playing and having a good time, I couldn't care less about a character's "power level" as long as no one's cheating.

Powergaming and Roleplaying are two separate things.

You can be a Powergamer and a Roleplayer.

They are not mutually exclusive.

At worst, you might be said to mostly roleplay powerful characters.



-karma

True, karma - but usually one comes at the expense of the other. At least that's been my experience.

That depends entirely on your definition of powergaming. One problem with having this sort of conversation, as a rule, is that each of these terms means different things to different people. It's not like our disjointed, chaotic, globe-spanning, multigenerational, hobby has some official lexicon or something.

To me, powergaming is when someone's stats become obviously more important than someone's role playing/character. Your definition may vary, but I'm just attempting to clarify my own position here. My definition apparently isn't the same as yours, and likely may not be the same as anyone else here...but it's my definition, and I've been as clear as I can about that from the get-go.

Unfortunately there is no dictionary-definition that contains terms like "powergamer", "munchkin" or "min-maxer". So these terms are always a matter of personal perception. But if you think of a powergamer as somebody who is interested in making his character as effective as possible, i think there is a little powergamer in everyone of us. If you really like your character, you want him to stay alive. And good attributes, skills, etc. are one of the most important things to reach this goal. Therefore i don´t think that somebody is going to raise his "guitar"-skill because his character has this interest, while he should raise "automatics" to manage the next run.

It's like the karma for knowledge skills vs free knowledge skills.

If I have to pay karma for my knowledge skills, I am not picking up knowledgeskill: Trid Games
But if it's free knowledge skills, I probably will pick up some skills that are more 'personal' but offer almost 0 benefit in game.

Most overpowered knowledge skill: Early 2000s' Pen & Paper RPG games.

Second most overpowered knowledge skill: Shadowrun Themed Trid movies/shows.

I agree in principle but I'll reiterate what others have said: powergaming becomes a problem when it starts impacting the fun of the other people at the table, including the GM. Not everyone wants (or is able) to spend the time and effort researching the rules to make sure that every decision they make in chargen or in-game development maximizes their character's potency. Having both of those extremes in a group can lead to some serious imbalances that, if not addressed, can result in unhappiness on the part of the more casual player.

As a personal example, I've got a player with two young children and a demanding extended family. He can barely make the time for a six hour session once every two weeks and the last thing he wants to see at that session is his character being completely overshadowed by a character played by the single guy with loads of free time to min/max his character. This is not happening in my game only because we've managed to talk these issues out and make adjustments to keep all the characters on a similar level of power.

Then his character hasn't really got an interest in the guitar skill, has he?

such skills should only take time and money to develope, not money.
only when someone uses these for zero karma learned skills for things like centering i would cry foul.
but then, i would cry foul with many things magic <.<

Actually, all of these are listed in wikipedia.

Try that argument with any Teacher/Professor and watch the explosion.

Citation Needed

Good thing this isn't for school (which I ahven't been at for years....).

*snort* well played ^^

I'm sure there's a simple typo to blame here, but I'm really not sure what you're trying to say.

yeah, replace the last money with karma <.<

Got'cha.

I disagree, but whatever works for you and your games, I guess. If every skill wasn't supposed to cost karma to raise, then they wouldn't have a karma cost chart, etc, etc. *shrugs*

I think the GM should work to ensure, as much as possible, that everyone gets to contribute to the game. But trying to get everyone on the same power level is more problematic. How do you guage the "power level" between someone who is great at shooting, vs. someone who is okay at shooting, but is also okay at driving, performing first aid, sneaking, and some other useful skills?

Despite the quantifiable stats and dice pools, the power level of any given combo depends a lot on the game. If it is a game with hardly any combat, and pretty tame combat when it does take place, a gun specialist might feel overshadowed, and regret "wasting" all of those points on getting a high weapon skill. On the other hand, if the game is nothing but a shoot-em-up, then the guy who can sneak, fast-talk, etc. will be the one feeling like he has wasted his points. In a game with little magical opposition, an average mage may be the functional equivalent in power to the tweaked and min-maxed street samurai.

I think the more optimal approach to balanced PCs isn't taking the Harrison Bergeron approach, but instead, letting people play what they want, and giving each character a chance to shine. The strength of the system is that for the same allocation of build points, you can make a dizzying array of concepts. Let people play them, instead of worrying about whether the old-school gumshoe detective, the changeling freak ex-pit fighter, the cold-eyed former company man, the mage from the halls of academia, and the ex-Sioux border guard are "balanced".

I could not agree with you more. I think it is about the level of the game you are ALL playing in. My game is like a hard core 90's action movie assault rifles, armor jackets + FFBA level 3 and grenades. Some folks might consider all of the alpha and beta grade cyberware, multiple initiations magic stats of 9 powergaming but the entire group is on the same playing field high powered. The challenges they face are also hard and crazy for them, and they have a great time.

I think the core problem comes into being when only a couple of the characters in the group are much higher powered than the rest of the group. This breeds resentment and causes the GM problems creating balanced encounters.
Just my two cents.

Yes. Also, even if the whole group is powergaming equally, that *can* be a GM problem.

I also tend to equate powergaming with ME ME ME! behavior. Historically, when I ran a group my goal was a joint enjoyment of session, sure some players and their characters will stand out, and that's fine, but when it gets to the point that one specific player starts taking away from the rest of others enjoyment, through grandstanding, or "yeah I can wipe everything out, stand there and hold my towel" kinda situations, things need to be addressed.

I also tended to not look fondly on the guy playing the CN Rogue that wants, yet again, to stray away from the group so he can run solo stuff, but that's not a powergaming issue.

Heh, yknow, if we look at recent comics for examples, I'd claim "The Sentry" as an ultimate powergamer character, uber powers, the 'i can do anything' powerset, and a bunch of flaws that aren't really flaws cause ultimately it still allows the character to be the center of attention and STILL able to kick everyone's ass. At least until they finally erased him in the last issues of Siege. Though they still left the door open for his return, just like a true powergamer character (I'm not really dead!)