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Mäx
post Jul 29 2010, 10:51 AM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Jul 29 2010, 12:40 PM) *
But I still think that FFBA is kind of a "+3 bonus to armor for having read Arsenal".

And spent the douple the amount of money then those who didn't
And really full-body version of the FFBA isn't exactly somethink you can wear in any but "sneaking into secret lab" run, it's not somethink you can wear to a meet with the jonson.

Ofcource maybe i'm not the right person to for this conversation as i have read arsenal and my main character build doesn't have an FFBA(actually goes for most of my builds), as i just desided that it really doesn't fit her style.
She's wearing a customized(style) steampunk line including a corset, addidng a full-body condom to that just doesn't work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Smokeskin
post Jul 29 2010, 11:16 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 29 2010, 12:21 PM) *
Yes not as seperate armor, but as addition to your other armor.'
Still doesn't allow you to get more then Body*2 armor.


All armor, both seperate and additions, normally count for purposes of encumbrance.

The passage says:

These armor pieces do not count as separate armor for purposes of encumbrance;
instead, these items modify the rating of armor worn
by their rating just as helmets and shields do


If it had just said "these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating just as helmets and shields do", then it would add to both encumbrance and armor, just like shields and helmets. But there is the first part that specifically says it doesn't add to encumbrance.

Anyways, I have it work like helmets, I just don't think it is RAW but a houserule.
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Surukai
post Jul 29 2010, 11:28 AM
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I had many long discussions with my group about this and we finally ended with leaving it as it is.

PPP looks goofy but can be used, does add encumberance just like helmets and shields (like the book says), we don't allow armor mods on items that give +x/+y since stacking armor mods on PPP gear to get all protections to rating 6 is just lame, (while formfit is a real piece of armor and have it chem protected makes sense while having a cup protecting you against tear gas doesn't)

In the end, it is somewhat cheap to wear formfit (at least half body that can be hidden) and that means most baddies with good economy (not street gangers) will wear one too.

Yes, it moves balance even further towards magic but even 20 points of ballistic armor won't do shit against high velocity full bursts. You are as helpless against those as you are against control thoughts or overcast stunbolts.
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Mäx
post Jul 29 2010, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jul 29 2010, 01:16 PM) *
All armor, both seperate and additions, normally count for purposes of encumbrance.

Yes, but only the highest armor value of either type(B/I) is counted if your wearing multiple pieces of armor, but all of their rating are added-up for purposes of encumbrance.
So if your wearing an 6/4 armor and 4/8 armor you have a combined armor value of 6/8 put for encumbrance purposes it counts as 10/12.
The like helmets and shields part prefers to the first sentence too, not just the second.

Read the rules on encumbrance, its all there in the book.
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Wasabi
post Jul 29 2010, 11:40 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 29 2010, 05:51 AM) *
it's not somethink you can wear to a meet with the jonson.


For male characters wearing long pants and a jacket do you believe your statement still applies?
(and if so, howso?)
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Mäx
post Jul 29 2010, 12:12 PM
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QUOTE (Wasabi @ Jul 29 2010, 01:40 PM) *
For male characters wearing long pants and a jacket do you believe your statement still applies?
(and if so, howso?)

rating 3 FFBA is pretty much a fullbody condom, so yes i would say it does apply.
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Fringe
post Jul 29 2010, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jul 29 2010, 07:16 AM) *
All armor, both seperate and additions, normally count for purposes of encumbrance.

The passage says:

These armor pieces do not count as separate armor for purposes of encumbrance;
instead, these items modify the rating of armor worn
by their rating just as helmets and shields do


If it had just said "these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating just as helmets and shields do", then it would add to both encumbrance and armor, just like shields and helmets. But there is the first part that specifically says it doesn't add to encumbrance.

Anyways, I have it work like helmets, I just don't think it is RAW but a houserule.


It just says it doesn't count as separate armor. It does modify the armor you're wearing, though, and you then use the modified armor rating of that armor to calculate the encumbrance of that armor. (At least, that's how I read it.)

Which still makes the FFBA+PPP stack pretty wicked (You can get up to 8/8 and count only 4/4 toward encumbrance), even if you're wearing it under 0/0 street clothing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Smokeskin
post Jul 29 2010, 12:25 PM
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QUOTE (Fringe @ Jul 29 2010, 02:13 PM) *
It just says it doesn't count as separate armor. It does modify the armor you're wearing, though, and you then use the modified armor rating of that armor to calculate the encumbrance of that armor. (At least, that's how I read it.)


Try reading it without the first part before the ";". The second part alone says it works just like shields and helmets.

Now add the first part in, about it not applying to encumbrance like seperate armor. What do you think that means?

Are you really saying that regarding encumbrance, it doesn't work like seperate armor, it works like additional armor which happens to be the exact same way, and they just wrote the part about it not counting like seperate armor to mess with us?
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Mäx
post Jul 29 2010, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jul 29 2010, 02:25 PM) *
and they just wrote the part about it not counting like seperate armor to mess with us?

You mean that part that is also in the rules for shields and helmets.
The "just as helmets and shields" is for both parts of the text before it not just the second part.
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Smokeskin
post Jul 29 2010, 12:44 PM
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Well, that's what you say, but then the first part makes no sense.

Please tell me what you think the first part means. In what way does separate armor add to encumbrance in a different way than additional armor? Not to mention that "separate" and "additional" aren't defined terms. SR4A has no mention of "separate" or "additional". "Separate" is just a word - an armor jacket, an armor vest, a helmet, and a PPP piece are all separate armors. All add for encumbrance, as the rules say, except the PPP which has a specific mention of not adding to encumbrance. The rules also say that for armor you only count the highest, but helmets and PPP gets added, as specifically noted in their descriptions.

Perhaps the issue is that you think "separate" has some special game mechanic meaning that it doesn't?
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Mäx
post Jul 29 2010, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jul 29 2010, 02:44 PM) *
Well, that's what you say, but then the first part makes no sense.

Please tell me what you think the first part means. In what way does separate armor add to encumbrance in a different way than additional armor?

Here's all the rules on encubrance
QUOTE
Armor and Encumbrance
If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only
the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies. Note that
some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the
worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor.
Too much armor, however, can slow a character down. If either of
a character’s armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modifier
to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof ) that
his Body x 2 is exceeded. Note that this may affect Initiative as well. If
a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together
before comparing to Body.

you have to take all of that into account when you consider the part about "not counting as a seperate armor for the purposes of the encubrance"
If it counted as seperate armor then you would get either PPP:s or your other armors armor rating which ever is higher, it wouldn't add into the other armor.
"instead, these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating" part tells what it means that it doesn't count as seperate armor.
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Yerameyahu
post Jul 29 2010, 01:18 PM
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Pretending that PPP applied to FFBA inherits the 1/2 encumbrance is just plain munchkinry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) God, I hate PPP.
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Fauxknight
post Jul 29 2010, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE (jakephillips @ Jul 28 2010, 11:41 PM) *
I was wondering if your teams all stack their armor with form fitting body armor.


Not all, but close. Aside from the occasional roleplay reason, like a shapeshifter, pretty much every character seems to have it.

I don't see it as that big of a deal, the maximum 3 bonus armor from the full body suit means the character takes an average of 1 less damage when shot. Thats the same difference as having platelet factories or a trauma dampener. Of course the character who stacks all three does start to become a bit of a problem. Personally I have trouble fitting the full suit onto one of my characters, the shirt or half-body suit seem a lot more reasonable as far as coverage areas, but that doesn't mean I don't see a lot of other players with the full body condom.
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Fringe
post Jul 29 2010, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 29 2010, 08:18 AM) *
Pretending that PPP applied to FFBA inherits the 1/2 encumbrance is just plain munchkinry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) God, I hate PPP.


True. But that is what I get from it, since PPP modifies the armor to which it's attached.
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Yerameyahu
post Jul 29 2010, 01:28 PM
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Well, you barely lose anything for the half-suit, and it's incredibly easy to cover. I find the full-suit easy, too, but I don't care about corsets. ;P

Psh. It modifies the rating, and you *know* perfectly well it's only for the purposes of getting shot, not magically less encumbering because it's worn over the FFBA. Cheater. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's why we have GMs.
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Smokeskin
post Jul 29 2010, 01:33 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 29 2010, 02:56 PM) *
you have to take all of that into account when you consider the part about "not counting as a seperate armor for the purposes of the encubrance"


Oh, so I have to "take it all in" to understand how the PPP text says it doesn't count for encumbrance, but it should count anyway. Gotcha.

Look, the PPP text says you shouldn't count it as separate armor for the purposes of encumbrance. "Separate" is not a term that sets it apart from "additional" armor in mechanical terms, it is just a word that means the same as "multiple". There aren't two systems of handling encumbrance, one for "separate" and one for "additional". There is one way and one way only, you add the ratings of "multiple" or "separate" pieces of armor together - the two expections to this, PPP and FFBA, are specifically mentioned in their respective entries. You're so hung up on the common English word "separate" that you invent new mechanics, but all you can say is "take it all in to understand it" - you're saying that because you can't find a single place in the rules that says "separate" armor gets handled a certain way.
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Fringe
post Jul 29 2010, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 29 2010, 07:56 AM) *
Here's all the rules on encubrance

you have to take all of that into account when you consider the part about "not counting as a seperate armor for the purposes of the encubrance"
If it counted as seperate armor then you would get either PPP:s or your other armors armor rating which ever is higher, it wouldn't add into the other armor.
"instead, these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating" part tells what it means that it doesn't count as seperate armor.


That's what I get from the first statement under PPP. It's referring to the entire "Armor and Encumbrance" corpus, not just the one calculation. So here's my calculation:

Urban Explorer Jumpsuit (6/6)
FFBA Full Suit (6/2)
PPP (the full set, attached to the FFBA) (+2/+6)

Total armor: 14/14 (PPP modifies FFBA to 8/8, which specifically states it counts full when stacked with another armor.)
Armor for purposes of encumbrance: 10/10, since the PPP modifies the FFBA (to a modified 8/8), which counts only half. So it takes a Body of 5 to wear this without penalty.

Abusive? Probably. But that's what happens with two sets that work counter to the standard rules.

And it gets even better/worse if you take the PPP statement to mean it doesn't count at all for encumbrance: Total armor 14/14, total for encumbrance 9/7. Still takes a 5 Body to pull it off, but you could throw in gel packs for an additional +1/+1 (total 15/15) without a problem. 20 dice to soak damage, as a human without milspec armor? Yes, please. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Fauxknight
post Jul 29 2010, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 29 2010, 09:18 AM) *
Pretending that PPP applied to FFBA inherits the 1/2 encumbrance is just plain munchkinry. God, I hate PPP.


Actually I saw a character with a full FFBA suit with gel packs. He claimed it brought the FFBA up to 7/3 and because of rounding was still only 3/1 for encumbrance.
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Yerameyahu
post Jul 29 2010, 01:45 PM
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Right, so the GM says, 'PPP counts fully'.
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Mäx
post Jul 29 2010, 01:58 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jul 29 2010, 03:33 PM) *
Oh, so I have to "take it all in" to understand how the PPP text says it doesn't count for encumbrance, but it should count anyway. Gotcha.

Look, the PPP text says you shouldn't count it as separate armor for the purposes of encumbrance. "Separate" is not a term that sets it apart from "additional" armor in mechanical terms, it is just a word that means the same as "multiple". There aren't two systems of handling encumbrance, one for "separate" and one for "additional". There is one way and one way only, you add the ratings of "multiple" or "separate" pieces of armor together - the two expections to this, PPP and FFBA, are specifically mentioned in their respective entries. You're so hung up on the common English word "separate" that you invent new mechanics, but all you can say is "take it all in to understand it" - you're saying that because you can't find a single place in the rules that says "separate" armor gets handled a certain way.

As i quoted the rules for encumbrance and armor state that if you're wearing more then one piece of armor, then you take the highest B and I values and that is what your armor is and for encumbrance you add together b and I values from all the armors and thats the value you check agains Body*2 to see whether you get penalties.
For example if your body 5 character is wearing an armored jacket(8/6) and a chain shirt(2/7) you have combined armor of 8/7 but for purpose of encumbrance it counts as 10/13
If PPP pieces counted as seperate armors, then it wouldn't works as that second sentence says it does.
FFBA has it own rules on how it stacks with other armors.
Helmets,shields and PPP on the otherhand sidestep the stacking armor rules by not counting as seperate pieces of armor.Instead those add their values to armor your wearing counting as one armor and thus avaiding problems stacking brings with it just like armored clothing lines do.

And Fringe, youd be hard pressed to find a GM who lets you use FFBA:s half encumbrance rules for PPP added to it, most will just Gibbs slap you.
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Kraegor
post Jul 29 2010, 02:09 PM
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So the rules state:

2 Pieces of Armor: Chain Shirt and Armored Jacket. 2/6 and 6/4.
- Using the rules you add them together then apply to body. 2/6 + 6/4 = 8/10. You use the highest for body. So 10 means a body of 5 could use it safely. Even though you only have an armor of: 6/6 it counts as 8/10 for encumbrance.

1 Piece of Armor: Armored Vest and FFBA. 5/3 and 6/2.
- Using the rules as written, you only use half the FFBA to add to Jacket. 5/4 + 3/1(halfed when added) = 8/5. So 8 is the highest value. Body of 5 could use safely. But you get 11/5 armor.

1 Piece of Armor: Armored Vest and FFBA and PPP set. 5/3 and 6/2 and 2/6.
- Using the rules, PPP modifies the Armored Vest, since PPP is a seperate rule. (5/3 + 2/6) = 7/9 + 3/1(halfed when added) = 10/10. You get 13/11 armor, and it counts as 10/10 for encumbrance. So a body 5 character is safe.

Where it gets tricky is something like.. lets say, High Ballistic Armor (made this up)

1 Piece of Armor: High Ballistic and FFBA and PPP set. 10/3 and 6/2 and 2/6.
- Using the rules: 10/3 + 2/6 = 12/9. 12/9 + 3/1 = 15/10. You use 15 for your encumbrance. Which means only a body of 8 char can wear this. But you get 18/11 armor.

Basically since PPP adds to the armor. And FFBA is halved and added as stacked armor, its almost negligible when wearing heavier armor.

Make sure when you add PPP into armor, it goes on the biggest armor. FFBA armor is halved, and you can't add PPP armor onto FFBA armor by itself with halfing it. The PPP armor doesn't have the halving ability. Thats like stacking PPP armor onto Heavy Milspec armor, and giving it 7 slots to each PPP item because the Milspec armor has slots. Doesn't work. If PPP and FFBA are ALL you are wearing, then it just adds in like a helmet bonus and halves. But if its worn with bigger armor on top of the FFBA it adds to that armor. Otherwise its just too powerful.
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Fauxknight
post Jul 29 2010, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (Fringe @ Jul 29 2010, 09:35 AM) *
Abusive? Probably. But that's what happens with two sets that work counter to the standard rules.


You forgot to cound a helmet and shield bonus to your FFBA before halving it.

Personally I don't read them as stackable, which comes from the fact that the term 'worn armor rating' isn't defined and probably refers a chracters total armor value gained from worn items, rather than to each specific suit of armor he is wearing. In this case since it isn't suit specific a player would not have the option to apply PPP, helmets, and shields to thier FFBA pre-encumbrance.

For example a character with a full suit of FFBA (6/2), a lined coat (6/4), and a helmet (1/2) has a "worn armor rating" of 13/7 and an encumbrance value of 10/6. In this manner if he wants to add some PPP shin guards (0/1) he doesn't have the option to apply it to a specific suit of armor because it adds to the totals directly.
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Fringe
post Jul 29 2010, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE (Fauxknight @ Jul 29 2010, 09:20 AM) *
You forgot to cound a helmet and shield bonus to your FFBA before halving it.

Personally I don't read them as stackable, which comes from the fact that the term 'worn armor rating' isn't defined and probably refers a chracters total armor value gained from worn items, rather than to each specific suit of armor he is wearing. In this case since it isn't suit specific a player would not have the option to apply PPP, helmets, and shields to thier FFBA pre-encumbrance.

For example a character with a full suit of FFBA (6/2), a lined coat (6/4), and a helmet (1/2) has a "worn armor rating" of 13/7 and an encumbrance value of 10/6. In this manner if he wants to add some PPP shin guards (0/1) he doesn't have the option to apply it to a specific suit of armor because it adds to the totals directly.


Good point.

Perhaps the "as helmets and shields" clause is meant exactly to counter what I've done, but it seems a little vague (as evidenced by the discussion here).
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Medicineman
post Jul 29 2010, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jul 29 2010, 06:16 AM) *
.....
Anyways, I have it work like helmets, I just don't think it is RAW but a houserule.


Thats exactly how it works (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Armor Jacket 8/6
and PPP System +2/+4 is ONE Armor of Value 10/10
(and perfect for a CON 5 Char)

with only one Dance
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Fauxknight
post Jul 29 2010, 02:55 PM
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QUOTE (Fringe @ Jul 29 2010, 10:42 AM) *
...but it seems a little vague (as evidenced by the discussion here).


Yeah, the term used for stacking items isn't defined, so it could technically swing either way. I prefer to think the most obvious (and less beardy) method is RAI since RAW isn't difinitive.
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