I was wondering if your teams all stack their armor with form fitting body armor.
Most of my human team members who are body five so could wear 10 total points of armor wear armor jackets 8/6 and then stack FFBA 2 under that 4/2 that you can stack with regular armor and it only counts half it's rating for encumbrance.
So your body 5 human is wearing 12/8 armor. It makes your buff human very resistant to physical damage from firearms which would have to do 12 boxes of damage to do physical damage.
I am not saying you should not do so I am just asking if most of your groups do the same.

I'm not so worried about the Bod5+ anything... they'll find ways of getting tons of armor no matter what you do and the increase is more marginal the more armor they already have.


It's the Bod2 decker or mage you need to worry about... and in those cases especially I don't see a problem w/ FFBA as it allows them to sneak in an extra point or 2 over 4 a much bigger and needed increase.


Also, while damage may stage down to stun... as some of the trolls have learned... stun can't be healed magically limiting them to only first aid... and unless pain editors are common... unconscious is far worse than dead if it gets you captured and interogated.

And a lot of body 5 metahumans do not have a stun damage track to keep up. Yes, they mostly take stun damage, but they drop unconcious rather soon if hit too often.

Well, no. Unconscious is, by definition, never worse than dead. At worst, it's *as good as* dead.

Well, dead only kills you. Getting knocked out, dragged into a holding cell and interrogated may kill you in the process and your entire team after that, depending on what intel the interrogators got out of you...

How's that worse? Sign me up for the stun damage, please!

You don't think the death of not only yourself, but a lot of people who might be your friends is not worse than just your death...?

Industrious Line Winterized Coverall 6/5
FFBA (Full Body) 6/2 (counted as 3/1, when counting pemalties)
Helmet 1/2
PPP Shin Guards (discreet version) 0/1
PPP Forearm Guards (discreet version) 0/1

That is 13/11 armor (counted as 10/10 as penalties are concerned)

I personally adore FFBA and encourage everyone who *doesn't* have a body higher than 4 to get some immediately. It's at the very low end of the body stat that people start to feel they should just wait in the car and I believe that discourages them from participating. I'd much rather they get enough armor to soak a few stray rounds and tell them to keep under cover most of the time. However, if you run in a less gunbunny heavy setting, FFBA might lead to powergaming or imbalances.

Liked it when it first appeared in Street Samurai Catalog. Still like it. Evens things up a bit for those with a low body and over all it only works out to 3 more dice (FFBA level 3 adds 3 dice beyond body limit) which works out to about 1 extra hit on average. Sure, more often it's stun damage rather than physical but from a GM perspective this means more story opportunity as team mates must rescue those captured rather than just leave them. Plus bad guys wear it too. It's fine and I've never had any real problems with it.

Stun actually CAN be magically healed. There is nothing in 4a that prevents it.

I am not saying you should not do so I am just asking if most of your groups do the same.
most of my professional or smart or non-suicidal chars do it
I'm (among other ) in one Group where we play H&K Special Ops/SWATS and its mandatory to wear Formfitting Armor

Hough !
Medicineman

Nothing except p.253 "Magical Healing":

Oh and the description text of the Heal spell also clearly states it only heals boxes of physical damage.

I removed it from my next campaign.
The problem I had was that players who didn't have Arsenal or didn't bother to skim the books for such things had, at best, body*2 armor (when they didn't choose a lesser armor to fit their character style better) while those who did had something like 6+(body*2-3)+2 armor.
This also meant that civilians and low-end opposition had far less armor than the PC.

So I had two options:
1. Forcing players to skim the books to get optimal gear (or help them do it)
2. Removing FFBA and PPP from the game

Since I'm aiming at a 'back to the roots' feeling, I chose the latter.

That second function is wrong and overly comlicated, someone with FFBA has at max:
Ballistic Body*2+3
Impact Body*2+1
Thats not much, considering they probaply paid atleast douple what those without arsenal did for a meager +3/+1 armor.

I think it's a no-brainer. FFBA and PPP were specifically put in there to stack with other armor. Asking if a player uses them is like asking "Does your street samurai use a smartlink? Does your mage use direct combat spells?"

The only thing I dislike about them, from a crunch perspective, is that they are an exception to the general rules about armor stacking. I would rather have had armor stacking being handled in a less simple-minded way to begin with, so that people would have a variety of options for armor stacking.

Yeah just having all armor stack would make for a much better game and much more variated armor choises for characters.
FFBA could still be counted as half as well Zoe's second skin.
There are allready ways to get max armor for most almost all body values, allowing everythink to stack would only increase varity allowing people to shooce armor pieces based on how they want their character to dress and not on what gives me the max armor.

Unlike previous editions, there is nothing saying magic can not do it, there may not be a spell to do it NOW, but it can be done.

For ballistic:
A full FFBA has 6 armor for 3 encumbrance.
This leaves them with (body*2)-3 encumbrance left, which means a (body*2)-3 armor.
They can then add PPP to get a few more "free" armor points (that's where the +2 comes from, but that's a mistake, you can't get more than +1).
That's how I get 6+(body*2)-3+1 = body*2+4

For just 1800 nuyen which is far from expensive for a +4 bonus.

PPP also counts against the body*2 limit, so i dont now what the hell are you talking about.

I honestly see no reason whatsoever why Arsenal should introduce both FFBA that stacks and only adds half encumbrance, and PPP stuff that adds armor without counting encumbrance. I just discarded the special rules for them, they count like everything else. I don't add armor ratings for encumbrance though, I only look at the used armor rating. I am perfectly ok with someone wearing FFBA or armor clothing to protect them if they have to take off their armor jacket.

Please guys for all that is good in this world, read the damm rules first before whining about them.
Every point of armor from PPP counts against encubrance.

It says very clearly that These armor pieces do not count as separate armor for purposes of encumbrance.

Yes not as seperate armor, but as addition to your other armor.'
Still doesn't allow you to get more then Body*2 armor.

Ok, so it's just there to make sure you get that +1 armor point you need to get your body*2+3 armor rating.

But I still think that FFBA is kind of a "+3 bonus to armor for having read Arsenal".

And spent the douple the amount of money then those who didn't
And really full-body version of the FFBA isn't exactly somethink you can wear in any but "sneaking into secret lab" run, it's not somethink you can wear to a meet with the jonson.

Ofcource maybe i'm not the right person to for this conversation as i have read arsenal and my main character build doesn't have an FFBA(actually goes for most of my builds), as i just desided that it really doesn't fit her style.
She's wearing a customized(style) steampunk line including a corset, addidng a full-body condom to that just doesn't work

All armor, both seperate and additions, normally count for purposes of encumbrance.

The passage says:

These armor pieces do not count as separate armor for purposes of encumbrance;
instead, these items modify the rating of armor worn
by their rating just as helmets and shields do

If it had just said "these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating just as helmets and shields do", then it would add to both encumbrance and armor, just like shields and helmets. But there is the first part that specifically says it doesn't add to encumbrance.

Anyways, I have it work like helmets, I just don't think it is RAW but a houserule.

I had many long discussions with my group about this and we finally ended with leaving it as it is.

PPP looks goofy but can be used, does add encumberance just like helmets and shields (like the book says), we don't allow armor mods on items that give +x/+y since stacking armor mods on PPP gear to get all protections to rating 6 is just lame, (while formfit is a real piece of armor and have it chem protected makes sense while having a cup protecting you against tear gas doesn't)

In the end, it is somewhat cheap to wear formfit (at least half body that can be hidden) and that means most baddies with good economy (not street gangers) will wear one too.

Yes, it moves balance even further towards magic but even 20 points of ballistic armor won't do shit against high velocity full bursts. You are as helpless against those as you are against control thoughts or overcast stunbolts.

Yes, but only the highest armor value of either type(B/I) is counted if your wearing multiple pieces of armor, but all of their rating are added-up for purposes of encumbrance.
So if your wearing an 6/4 armor and 4/8 armor you have a combined armor value of 6/8 put for encumbrance purposes it counts as 10/12.
The like helmets and shields part prefers to the first sentence too, not just the second.

Read the rules on encumbrance, its all there in the book.

For male characters wearing long pants and a jacket do you believe your statement still applies?
(and if so, howso?)

rating 3 FFBA is pretty much a fullbody condom, so yes i would say it does apply.

It just says it doesn't count as separate armor. It does modify the armor you're wearing, though, and you then use the modified armor rating of that armor to calculate the encumbrance of that armor. (At least, that's how I read it.)

Which still makes the FFBA+PPP stack pretty wicked (You can get up to 8/8 and count only 4/4 toward encumbrance), even if you're wearing it under 0/0 street clothing.

Try reading it without the first part before the ";". The second part alone says it works just like shields and helmets.

Now add the first part in, about it not applying to encumbrance like seperate armor. What do you think that means?

Are you really saying that regarding encumbrance, it doesn't work like seperate armor, it works like additional armor which happens to be the exact same way, and they just wrote the part about it not counting like seperate armor to mess with us?

You mean that part that is also in the rules for shields and helmets.
The "just as helmets and shields" is for both parts of the text before it not just the second part.

Well, that's what you say, but then the first part makes no sense.

Please tell me what you think the first part means. In what way does separate armor add to encumbrance in a different way than additional armor? Not to mention that "separate" and "additional" aren't defined terms. SR4A has no mention of "separate" or "additional". "Separate" is just a word - an armor jacket, an armor vest, a helmet, and a PPP piece are all separate armors. All add for encumbrance, as the rules say, except the PPP which has a specific mention of not adding to encumbrance. The rules also say that for armor you only count the highest, but helmets and PPP gets added, as specifically noted in their descriptions.

Perhaps the issue is that you think "separate" has some special game mechanic meaning that it doesn't?

Here's all the rules on encubrance

you have to take all of that into account when you consider the part about "not counting as a seperate armor for the purposes of the encubrance"
If it counted as seperate armor then you would get either PPP:s or your other armors armor rating which ever is higher, it wouldn't add into the other armor.
"instead, these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating" part tells what it means that it doesn't count as seperate armor.

Pretending that PPP applied to FFBA inherits the 1/2 encumbrance is just plain munchkinry. God, I hate PPP.

Not all, but close. Aside from the occasional roleplay reason, like a shapeshifter, pretty much every character seems to have it.

I don't see it as that big of a deal, the maximum 3 bonus armor from the full body suit means the character takes an average of 1 less damage when shot. Thats the same difference as having platelet factories or a trauma dampener. Of course the character who stacks all three does start to become a bit of a problem. Personally I have trouble fitting the full suit onto one of my characters, the shirt or half-body suit seem a lot more reasonable as far as coverage areas, but that doesn't mean I don't see a lot of other players with the full body condom.

True. But that is what I get from it, since PPP modifies the armor to which it's attached.

Well, you barely lose anything for the half-suit, and it's incredibly easy to cover. I find the full-suit easy, too, but I don't care about corsets. ;P

Psh. It modifies the rating, and you *know* perfectly well it's only for the purposes of getting shot, not magically less encumbering because it's worn over the FFBA. Cheater. That's why we have GMs.

Oh, so I have to "take it all in" to understand how the PPP text says it doesn't count for encumbrance, but it should count anyway. Gotcha.

Look, the PPP text says you shouldn't count it as separate armor for the purposes of encumbrance. "Separate" is not a term that sets it apart from "additional" armor in mechanical terms, it is just a word that means the same as "multiple". There aren't two systems of handling encumbrance, one for "separate" and one for "additional". There is one way and one way only, you add the ratings of "multiple" or "separate" pieces of armor together - the two expections to this, PPP and FFBA, are specifically mentioned in their respective entries. You're so hung up on the common English word "separate" that you invent new mechanics, but all you can say is "take it all in to understand it" - you're saying that because you can't find a single place in the rules that says "separate" armor gets handled a certain way.

That's what I get from the first statement under PPP. It's referring to the entire "Armor and Encumbrance" corpus, not just the one calculation. So here's my calculation:

Urban Explorer Jumpsuit (6/6)
FFBA Full Suit (6/2)
PPP (the full set, attached to the FFBA) (+2/+6)

Total armor: 14/14 (PPP modifies FFBA to 8/8, which specifically states it counts full when stacked with another armor.)
Armor for purposes of encumbrance: 10/10, since the PPP modifies the FFBA (to a modified 8/8), which counts only half. So it takes a Body of 5 to wear this without penalty.

Abusive? Probably. But that's what happens with two sets that work counter to the standard rules.

And it gets even better/worse if you take the PPP statement to mean it doesn't count at all for encumbrance: Total armor 14/14, total for encumbrance 9/7. Still takes a 5 Body to pull it off, but you could throw in gel packs for an additional +1/+1 (total 15/15) without a problem. 20 dice to soak damage, as a human without milspec armor? Yes, please.

Actually I saw a character with a full FFBA suit with gel packs. He claimed it brought the FFBA up to 7/3 and because of rounding was still only 3/1 for encumbrance.

Right, so the GM says, 'PPP counts fully'.

As i quoted the rules for encumbrance and armor state that if you're wearing more then one piece of armor, then you take the highest B and I values and that is what your armor is and for encumbrance you add together b and I values from all the armors and thats the value you check agains Body*2 to see whether you get penalties.
For example if your body 5 character is wearing an armored jacket(8/6) and a chain shirt(2/7) you have combined armor of 8/7 but for purpose of encumbrance it counts as 10/13
If PPP pieces counted as seperate armors, then it wouldn't works as that second sentence says it does.
FFBA has it own rules on how it stacks with other armors.
Helmets,shields and PPP on the otherhand sidestep the stacking armor rules by not counting as seperate pieces of armor.Instead those add their values to armor your wearing counting as one armor and thus avaiding problems stacking brings with it just like armored clothing lines do.

And Fringe, youd be hard pressed to find a GM who lets you use FFBA:s half encumbrance rules for PPP added to it, most will just Gibbs slap you.

So the rules state:

2 Pieces of Armor: Chain Shirt and Armored Jacket. 2/6 and 6/4.
- Using the rules you add them together then apply to body. 2/6 + 6/4 = 8/10. You use the highest for body. So 10 means a body of 5 could use it safely. Even though you only have an armor of: 6/6 it counts as 8/10 for encumbrance.

1 Piece of Armor: Armored Vest and FFBA. 5/3 and 6/2.
- Using the rules as written, you only use half the FFBA to add to Jacket. 5/4 + 3/1(halfed when added) = 8/5. So 8 is the highest value. Body of 5 could use safely. But you get 11/5 armor.

1 Piece of Armor: Armored Vest and FFBA and PPP set. 5/3 and 6/2 and 2/6.
- Using the rules, PPP modifies the Armored Vest, since PPP is a seperate rule. (5/3 + 2/6) = 7/9 + 3/1(halfed when added) = 10/10. You get 13/11 armor, and it counts as 10/10 for encumbrance. So a body 5 character is safe.

Where it gets tricky is something like.. lets say, High Ballistic Armor (made this up)

1 Piece of Armor: High Ballistic and FFBA and PPP set. 10/3 and 6/2 and 2/6.
- Using the rules: 10/3 + 2/6 = 12/9. 12/9 + 3/1 = 15/10. You use 15 for your encumbrance. Which means only a body of 8 char can wear this. But you get 18/11 armor.

Basically since PPP adds to the armor. And FFBA is halved and added as stacked armor, its almost negligible when wearing heavier armor.

Make sure when you add PPP into armor, it goes on the biggest armor. FFBA armor is halved, and you can't add PPP armor onto FFBA armor by itself with halfing it. The PPP armor doesn't have the halving ability. Thats like stacking PPP armor onto Heavy Milspec armor, and giving it 7 slots to each PPP item because the Milspec armor has slots. Doesn't work. If PPP and FFBA are ALL you are wearing, then it just adds in like a helmet bonus and halves. But if its worn with bigger armor on top of the FFBA it adds to that armor. Otherwise its just too powerful.

You forgot to cound a helmet and shield bonus to your FFBA before halving it.

Personally I don't read them as stackable, which comes from the fact that the term 'worn armor rating' isn't defined and probably refers a chracters total armor value gained from worn items, rather than to each specific suit of armor he is wearing. In this case since it isn't suit specific a player would not have the option to apply PPP, helmets, and shields to thier FFBA pre-encumbrance.

For example a character with a full suit of FFBA (6/2), a lined coat (6/4), and a helmet (1/2) has a "worn armor rating" of 13/7 and an encumbrance value of 10/6. In this manner if he wants to add some PPP shin guards (0/1) he doesn't have the option to apply it to a specific suit of armor because it adds to the totals directly.

Good point.

Perhaps the "as helmets and shields" clause is meant exactly to counter what I've done, but it seems a little vague (as evidenced by the discussion here).

Thats exactly how it works
Armor Jacket 8/6
and PPP System +2/+4 is ONE Armor of Value 10/10
(and perfect for a CON 5 Char)

with only one Dance
Medicineman

Yeah, the term used for stacking items isn't defined, so it could technically swing either way. I prefer to think the most obvious (and less beardy) method is RAI since RAW isn't difinitive.