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Halinn
post Aug 11 2010, 08:43 PM
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If I were to shapechange into, say, a wolf or a great cat, would I now have two initiative passes, or is that not a physical attribute?

Thanks in advance,
Mads
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Mr. Mage
post Aug 11 2010, 08:49 PM
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I'd play it as you would, since Init Passes are kind of based off the idea that you are faster than everyone else and can thus do more in the same time period. That's kind of what the cyberware/adept powers do, increase your speed so you can do more, so I'd imagine that changing into an animal that is naturally quicker would have the same effect.
Don't really know if this is how it would work according to RAW, but it makes sense to me at least.
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naga-nuyen
post Aug 11 2010, 09:47 PM
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Good day, this is from the Frequently Asked Questions section at the Catalyist Shadowrun site:

"Does the Shapechange/(Critter Form) spell grant the target character the critter's powers?

Yes. While in critter form the character loses access to any abilities and powers particular to their normal physical form (e.g., natural low-light vision, natural armor, cyberware, etc.) and gains any of the critter's Powers (Enhanced Senses, Natural Weapon, etc.) while they are in that form."

Hope this helps, Naga-Nuyen
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Neraph
post Aug 12 2010, 04:33 AM
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No, you do not gain their initiative passes. Initiative Passes are not "abilities or powers" that are listed for animals, and an elf with a agility of 10 and reaction of 9 still gets only 1 IP, so I don't see why turning into a Dog +2 gives you an extra IP.
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Makki
post Aug 12 2010, 06:02 AM
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my GM and i ruled, that IPs is a physical stat, so i'd get it. however SR4A p68 lists IPs under special attributes
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Neraph
post Aug 12 2010, 06:11 AM
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QUOTE (Makki @ Aug 12 2010, 01:02 AM) *
my GM and i ruled, that IPs is a physical stat, so i'd get it. however SR4A p68 lists IPs under special attributes

Exactly - you don't get it (the IP, that is). If you rule it as a physical stat then you get the successes from the Spellcasting Test added onto it as well. How would you balance that?

The answer is: Initiative Passes are a Special Attribute and Special Attributes are not conferred by Shapechange/(Critter) Form.
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Lansdren
post Aug 12 2010, 09:23 AM
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Personally I say yes you get them, it is part of how the animal is and its natural (ie not magical in nature). But rule which ever you want until a official rulling comes out one way or another.

In my mind just as a adept can get multiple passes and enhanced vision / senses through magic nature does them better / easier just by being nature. This being the case using magic to ape a animal gives you the base animal benefits IP's included but this would also mean you get any negative qualities too (like if your a low body person and turn into a small bird then you get fragile too whilst in that form).

It is also a viable way for a mage to get multiple IPs when they need it but at a reasonable cost (sustained spell if not in a GM approved focus ((not all focuses should be viable in animal form)) plus lack of talking or doing normal human stuff whilst shifted).

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Mr. Mage
post Aug 12 2010, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 12 2010, 12:33 AM) *
No, you do not gain their initiative passes. Initiative Passes are not "abilities or powers" that are listed for animals, and an elf with a agility of 10 and reaction of 9 still gets only 1 IP, so I don't see why turning into a Dog +2 gives you an extra IP.

Doesn't matter whether the animal/mage has a high agility or reaction. I wasn't using that to determine speed, I was using the fact that turning into something like a Cheetah would be pretty stupid if you can't run 50-something mph while transformed. The initiative passes, to me at least, go along with that kind of thinking because if the animal you turn into has a fast reaction time (as in NOT the actual stat) then as that animal so should you.

I do agree with your later post though, and it should not be increased via getting extra hits on the dice. Since I couldn't find anything specifically referring to how init passes are handled when transforming, I'd say it really just depends on the GM in question...
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Neraph
post Aug 12 2010, 03:21 PM
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Ok, let's try it this way:

QUOTE (Shapechange Spell Description, page 204 SR4)
Consult the Critters section, p. 285, for the subject's Physical attributes while in critter form.


Page 60, SR4, describes Physical attributes as: Agility, Body, Reaction, and Strength. Edge, Essence, the Initiative Score, Initiative Passes, Magic, and Resonance are clearly defined as Special Attributes. Since Shapechange only grants the Physical Attributes, it cannot grant an extra Initiative Pass.
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Johnny B. Good
post Aug 12 2010, 03:49 PM
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Even if that is so, the extra IP is an integral part of the animal's physiology and is non magical in nature. Common sense says that a mage shapechanging into said animal would gain the extra IP as well, in addition to enhanced senses that the animal receives.

It makes no sense that shapechange would allow enhanced olfactory organs but not increased neural response time.

Basically, it's RAW vs. Common Sense.
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Neraph
post Aug 12 2010, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Aug 12 2010, 10:49 AM) *
Even if that is so,

It is so. You've overstepped the rules of the game (except "Rule 0").

House rules are absolutely fine, if you want to make that a houserule. But the actual RAW is very clear on this.
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Johnny B. Good
post Aug 12 2010, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 12 2010, 05:00 PM) *
It is so. You've overstepped the rules of the game (except "Rule 0").

House rules are absolutely fine, if you want to make that a houserule. But the actual RAW is very clear on this.


House rules make the world go 'round. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)
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Neraph
post Aug 12 2010, 04:10 PM
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As long as you admit that what you're using is a House Rule and the RAW way to run it is as I've described.
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Johnny B. Good
post Aug 12 2010, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 12 2010, 05:10 PM) *
As long as you admit that what you're using is a House Rule and the RAW way to run it is as I've described.


Yes it is a house rule. The RAW rule is as you described.

Although I think it is a silly RAW rule that does not make much sense.
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Johnny B. Good
post Aug 12 2010, 04:34 PM
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Actually, upon further review of the Shapechange spell, you don't get any critter powers by RAW either.

So no natural weapon bite as a shark, no enhanced smell as a dog, and no adaptive camouflage as a chameleon. I believe this section could use some houseruling.
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Neraph
post Aug 12 2010, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Aug 12 2010, 10:34 AM) *
Actually, upon further review of the Shapechange spell, you don't get any critter powers by RAW either.

So no natural weapon bite as a shark, no enhanced smell as a dog, and no adaptive camouflage as a chameleon. I believe this section could use some houseruling.

They may be quoting some expanded rule or FAQ. My point being that even if we give Shapechange Critter Powers, Initiative Passes are Special Attributes, not Critter Powers. I didn't feel the need to complain about a lack of rules that gave them Critter Powers because they still wouldn't get the IP even if they did gain the Powers.

EDIT: Oh.

QUOTE (SR4 FAQ)
Does the Shapechange/(Critter Form) spell grant the target character the critter's powers?

Yes. While in critter form the character loses access to any abilities and powers particular to their normal physical form (e.g., natural low-light vision, natural armor, cyberware, etc.) and gains any of the critter's Powers (Enhanced Senses, Natural Weapon, etc.) while they are in that form.
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Mäx
post Aug 13 2010, 08:57 AM
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QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Aug 12 2010, 05:49 PM) *
It makes no sense that shapechange would allow enhanced olfactory organs but not increased neural response time.

It makes even less sense when you consider the fact that those great cats that can turn into metahumans lose their second IP.
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Lansdren
post Aug 13 2010, 09:39 AM
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I'm sorry but I'm still of the mind that the IP itself is not specifically discussed in the rule and that the surrounding rules / logic and circumstantial evidence points to the IP carrying over. But this is a grey area until a official answer is given and should be treated as such, GM choice if nothing else.
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Irion
post Aug 13 2010, 10:38 AM
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I am the first to say that something is not Raw.
But in this case it is a greay area.
Shapchange just talks about physical and metal attributes.

So there are two ways to handle it:
First: You get the IPs and lose any cyber and bio enhancement.
Second: You do not get the IPs but are to keep your enhancements.

Since I see the second Possibility as kind of scary, I would go with the first.
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Mäx
post Aug 13 2010, 10:42 AM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Aug 13 2010, 12:38 PM) *
I am the first to say that something is not Raw.
But in this case it is a greay area.
Shapchange just talks about physical and metal attributes.

So there are two ways to handle it:
First: You get the IPs and lose any cyber and bio enhancement.
Second: You do not get the IPs but are to keep your enhancements.

Since I see the second Possibility as kind of scary, I would go with the first.

Im pretty sure it explicitly say that you lose all benefits of ware.
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Lansdren
post Aug 13 2010, 02:47 PM
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Ware is one of those dont ask us parts of shape change.

In theory a mage can have some nice headware to boost for arguments sake his logic (Chaos mage FTW) then shape changes into a bird (with a much much smaller head). Where does the wear go? Granted this is a issue for all shape changing in shadowrun (drakes and shifters mostly but also covers vampires when in mist form and I'm sure I've forgotten one or two more).

Part of me says to avoid the whole shape change thing because we are getting close to "it goes into the astral or a pocket dimension" kind of answer which opens doors to nastiness.
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Neraph
post Aug 13 2010, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE (Lansdren @ Aug 13 2010, 03:39 AM) *
I'm sorry but I'm still of the mind that the IP itself is not specifically discussed in the rule and that the surrounding rules / logic and circumstantial evidence points to the IP carrying over. But this is a grey area until a official answer is given and should be treated as such, GM choice if nothing else.

There is no grey area. It explicitly only grants you the critter's Physical Attributes and Powers. Initiative Passes are Special Attributes, not Physical Attributes or Powers. You are working outside of the rules and now you are refusing to actually understand basic mechanics of the game.

Page 60 and 61 of SR4 cover Physical Attributes, where Strength, Body, Agility, and Reaction are listed. Page 61 and 62 of SR4 cover Special Attributes, where Resonance, Magic, Edge, Essence, Inititiative, and Initiative Passes are listed. Page 286 SR4 covers Powers. Powers are like Armor, Natural Weapon, and Enhanced Senses. Physical Attributes are Strength, Body, Reaction, and Agility. Initiative and Initiative Passes are explicitly Special Attributes and as such are not conferred by the casting of Shapechange/(Critter Form).
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Lansdren
post Aug 13 2010, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 13 2010, 04:27 PM) *
There is no grey area. It explicitly only grants you the critter's Physical Attributes and Powers. Initiative Passes are Special Attributes, not Physical Attributes or Powers. You are working outside of the rules and now you are refusing to actually understand basic mechanics of the game.

Page 60 and 61 of SR4 cover Physical Attributes, where Strength, Body, Agility, and Reaction are listed. Page 61 and 62 of SR4 cover Special Attributes, where Resonance, Magic, Edge, Essence, Inititiative, and Initiative Passes are listed. Page 286 SR4 covers Powers. Powers are like Armor, Natural Weapon, and Enhanced Senses. Physical Attributes are Strength, Body, Reaction, and Agility. Initiative and Initiative Passes are explicitly Special Attributes and as such are not conferred by the casting of Shapechange/(Critter Form).



Right as you seem to feel the need for this to be personal lets lay this down
Att ributes
There are thirteen attributes in Shadowrun, though each character has
just eleven or sometimes twelve. There are four Physical attributes, four
Mental attributes, and five Special attributes. Out of the five Special attributes,
most characters will have three while some (magicians, adepts,
mystic adepts, and technomancers) will have four, but none can have
all five.
Attributes are typically used to complement skills when making
tests, though some tests are made with only an attribute or pair of attributes
(see Using Attributes, p. 138).
A character’s attributes—Agility, Body, Reaction, Strength,
Charisma, Intuition, Logic, and Willpower—represent the raw material
that makes up every person: her body and mind, what the character
has done with both, and what’s inside the person that makes her
unique. Because attributes can be improved during the course of a character’s
life, they represent something more than genetics.

The thirteen listed in order in SR4A page 67 are

1) Agility
2) Body
3) Reaction
4) Strength
5) Charisma
6) Intuition
7) Logic
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Willpower
9) Edge
10)Essance
11) Initiative
12) Magic
13) Resonance



Initiative passes is not listed as any form of attribute.

Now before you go off on one the part of the Initiative listing says this

A derived attribute, Initiative is the sum of Reaction and Intuition,
plus any additional dice from implanted or magical reflex enhancers.
As it sounds, Initiative is used to make Initiative Tests (p. 144), which
determine the character’s Initiative Score for a Combat Turn. Any enhancements
to Reaction and Intuition also affect Initiative.
Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to
take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes
on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative
Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever
achieve 4.

But as I said this does not list it as a attribute if it was the list would be 14 not 13.

This is why I have stated it is a grey area as it is not attribute in the RAW rules nor is it a power.


I look forward to you retracting your statement of IP's being attributes and your personal attack on my level of understanding.


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Neraph
post Aug 13 2010, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE (Lansdren @ Aug 13 2010, 09:46 AM) *
A derived attribute, Initiative is the sum of Reaction and Intuition,
plus any additional dice from implanted or magical reflex enhancers.
As it sounds, Initiative is used to make Initiative Tests (p. 144), which
determine the character’s Initiative Score for a Combat Turn. Any enhancements
to Reaction and Intuition also affect Initiative.
Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to
take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes
on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative
Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever
achieve 4.

But as I said this does not list it as a attribute if it was the list would be 14 not 13.

This is why I have stated it is a grey area as it is not attribute in the RAW rules nor is it a power.


I look forward to you retracting your statement of IP's being attributes and your personal attack on my level of understanding.

It's actually fairly simple: Initiative Passes are a part of the Initiative attribute. Initiative itself is a Special Attribute, so any part of that stat would also be a Special Attribute.

This is still within the realm of English comprehension.
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BobChuck
post Aug 13 2010, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 13 2010, 11:27 AM) *
There is no grey area. It explicitly only grants you the critter's Physical Attributes and Powers. Initiative Passes are Special Attributes, not Physical Attributes or Powers. You are working outside of the rules and now you are refusing to actually understand basic mechanics of the game.

Page 60 and 61 of SR4 cover Physical Attributes, where Strength, Body, Agility, and Reaction are listed. Page 61 and 62 of SR4 cover Special Attributes, where Resonance, Magic, Edge, Essence, Inititiative, and Initiative Passes are listed. Page 286 SR4 covers Powers. Powers are like Armor, Natural Weapon, and Enhanced Senses. Physical Attributes are Strength, Body, Reaction, and Agility. Initiative and Initiative Passes are explicitly Special Attributes and as such are not conferred by the casting of Shapechange/(Critter Form).


No, sorry, you are wrong.

I've got the 20th anniversary edition, which supersedes the errata, the FAQ, Street Magic, the base 4th edition book, and pretty much everything else that's been published. Regarding attributes, powers, passes, and the like, the shapechange spell say two things:

1) the caster does gain the physical attributes of the new form (+1 per success)
2) the caster does not gain the mental attributes of the new form (keeping his base stats)

The spell does not mention skills, powers, or other things (like the ability to breathe underwater, fly, or extra initiative passes). The book does not say that you don't get those things, it does not say that you do. It is undefined.

Furthermore, the FAQ is not the rules; in fact, it gets a fair number of things wrong, and is regarded as somewhat unreliable - better than nothing, yes, but not the final word by any stretch of the imagination.

Generally speaking, most people I've talked to assume, using basic logic, that turning into a bird gives you wings (meaning both the ability to move in the air and ranks in the Flying skill) and claws (meaning both the Natural Weapon power and ranks in the Unarmed skill). Likewise, turning into a shark gives you swimming (swim movement, swimming skill, and the untyped "thing" known as working gills). Otherwise, the spell is significantly weaker than it otherwise would be. Assuming that initiative passes also translate is a logical extension.

But you're right, the book does not specifically say that you do get an extra initiative pass if you turn into a wolf. It doesn't say that you grow fur, either. It's implied.
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