If I were to shapechange into, say, a wolf or a great cat, would I now have two initiative passes, or is that not a physical attribute?

Thanks in advance,
Mads

I'd play it as you would, since Init Passes are kind of based off the idea that you are faster than everyone else and can thus do more in the same time period. That's kind of what the cyberware/adept powers do, increase your speed so you can do more, so I'd imagine that changing into an animal that is naturally quicker would have the same effect.
Don't really know if this is how it would work according to RAW, but it makes sense to me at least.

Good day, this is from the Frequently Asked Questions section at the Catalyist Shadowrun site:

"Does the Shapechange/(Critter Form) spell grant the target character the critter's powers?

Yes. While in critter form the character loses access to any abilities and powers particular to their normal physical form (e.g., natural low-light vision, natural armor, cyberware, etc.) and gains any of the critter's Powers (Enhanced Senses, Natural Weapon, etc.) while they are in that form."

Hope this helps, Naga-Nuyen

No, you do not gain their initiative passes. Initiative Passes are not "abilities or powers" that are listed for animals, and an elf with a agility of 10 and reaction of 9 still gets only 1 IP, so I don't see why turning into a Dog +2 gives you an extra IP.

my GM and i ruled, that IPs is a physical stat, so i'd get it. however SR4A p68 lists IPs under special attributes

Exactly - you don't get it (the IP, that is). If you rule it as a physical stat then you get the successes from the Spellcasting Test added onto it as well. How would you balance that?

The answer is: Initiative Passes are a Special Attribute and Special Attributes are not conferred by Shapechange/(Critter) Form.

Personally I say yes you get them, it is part of how the animal is and its natural (ie not magical in nature). But rule which ever you want until a official rulling comes out one way or another.

In my mind just as a adept can get multiple passes and enhanced vision / senses through magic nature does them better / easier just by being nature. This being the case using magic to ape a animal gives you the base animal benefits IP's included but this would also mean you get any negative qualities too (like if your a low body person and turn into a small bird then you get fragile too whilst in that form).

It is also a viable way for a mage to get multiple IPs when they need it but at a reasonable cost (sustained spell if not in a GM approved focus ((not all focuses should be viable in animal form)) plus lack of talking or doing normal human stuff whilst shifted).

Doesn't matter whether the animal/mage has a high agility or reaction. I wasn't using that to determine speed, I was using the fact that turning into something like a Cheetah would be pretty stupid if you can't run 50-something mph while transformed. The initiative passes, to me at least, go along with that kind of thinking because if the animal you turn into has a fast reaction time (as in NOT the actual stat) then as that animal so should you.

I do agree with your later post though, and it should not be increased via getting extra hits on the dice. Since I couldn't find anything specifically referring to how init passes are handled when transforming, I'd say it really just depends on the GM in question...

Ok, let's try it this way:



Page 60, SR4, describes Physical attributes as: Agility, Body, Reaction, and Strength. Edge, Essence, the Initiative Score, Initiative Passes, Magic, and Resonance are clearly defined as Special Attributes. Since Shapechange only grants the Physical Attributes, it cannot grant an extra Initiative Pass.

Even if that is so, the extra IP is an integral part of the animal's physiology and is non magical in nature. Common sense says that a mage shapechanging into said animal would gain the extra IP as well, in addition to enhanced senses that the animal receives.

It makes no sense that shapechange would allow enhanced olfactory organs but not increased neural response time.

Basically, it's RAW vs. Common Sense.

It is so. You've overstepped the rules of the game (except "Rule 0").

House rules are absolutely fine, if you want to make that a houserule. But the actual RAW is very clear on this.

House rules make the world go 'round.

As long as you admit that what you're using is a House Rule and the RAW way to run it is as I've described.

Yes it is a house rule. The RAW rule is as you described.

Although I think it is a silly RAW rule that does not make much sense.

Actually, upon further review of the Shapechange spell, you don't get any critter powers by RAW either.

So no natural weapon bite as a shark, no enhanced smell as a dog, and no adaptive camouflage as a chameleon. I believe this section could use some houseruling.

They may be quoting some expanded rule or FAQ. My point being that even if we give Shapechange Critter Powers, Initiative Passes are Special Attributes, not Critter Powers. I didn't feel the need to complain about a lack of rules that gave them Critter Powers because they still wouldn't get the IP even if they did gain the Powers.

EDIT: Oh.

It makes even less sense when you consider the fact that those great cats that can turn into metahumans lose their second IP.

I'm sorry but I'm still of the mind that the IP itself is not specifically discussed in the rule and that the surrounding rules / logic and circumstantial evidence points to the IP carrying over. But this is a grey area until a official answer is given and should be treated as such, GM choice if nothing else.

I am the first to say that something is not Raw.
But in this case it is a greay area.
Shapchange just talks about physical and metal attributes.

So there are two ways to handle it:
First: You get the IPs and lose any cyber and bio enhancement.
Second: You do not get the IPs but are to keep your enhancements.

Since I see the second Possibility as kind of scary, I would go with the first.

Im pretty sure it explicitly say that you lose all benefits of ware.

Ware is one of those dont ask us parts of shape change.

In theory a mage can have some nice headware to boost for arguments sake his logic (Chaos mage FTW) then shape changes into a bird (with a much much smaller head). Where does the wear go? Granted this is a issue for all shape changing in shadowrun (drakes and shifters mostly but also covers vampires when in mist form and I'm sure I've forgotten one or two more).

Part of me says to avoid the whole shape change thing because we are getting close to "it goes into the astral or a pocket dimension" kind of answer which opens doors to nastiness.

There is no grey area. It explicitly only grants you the critter's Physical Attributes and Powers. Initiative Passes are Special Attributes, not Physical Attributes or Powers. You are working outside of the rules and now you are refusing to actually understand basic mechanics of the game.

Page 60 and 61 of SR4 cover Physical Attributes, where Strength, Body, Agility, and Reaction are listed. Page 61 and 62 of SR4 cover Special Attributes, where Resonance, Magic, Edge, Essence, Inititiative, and Initiative Passes are listed. Page 286 SR4 covers Powers. Powers are like Armor, Natural Weapon, and Enhanced Senses. Physical Attributes are Strength, Body, Reaction, and Agility. Initiative and Initiative Passes are explicitly Special Attributes and as such are not conferred by the casting of Shapechange/(Critter Form).

Right as you seem to feel the need for this to be personal lets lay this down
Att ributes
There are thirteen attributes in Shadowrun, though each character has
just eleven or sometimes twelve. There are four Physical attributes, four
Mental attributes, and five Special attributes. Out of the five Special attributes,
most characters will have three while some (magicians, adepts,
mystic adepts, and technomancers) will have four, but none can have
all five.
Attributes are typically used to complement skills when making
tests, though some tests are made with only an attribute or pair of attributes
(see Using Attributes, p. 138).
A character’s attributes—Agility, Body, Reaction, Strength,
Charisma, Intuition, Logic, and Willpower—represent the raw material
that makes up every person: her body and mind, what the character
has done with both, and what’s inside the person that makes her
unique. Because attributes can be improved during the course of a character’s
life, they represent something more than genetics.

The thirteen listed in order in SR4A page 67 are

1) Agility
2) Body
3) Reaction
4) Strength
5) Charisma
6) Intuition
7) Logic
Willpower
9) Edge
10)Essance
11) Initiative
12) Magic
13) Resonance



Initiative passes is not listed as any form of attribute.

Now before you go off on one the part of the Initiative listing says this

A derived attribute, Initiative is the sum of Reaction and Intuition,
plus any additional dice from implanted or magical reflex enhancers.
As it sounds, Initiative is used to make Initiative Tests (p. 144), which
determine the character’s Initiative Score for a Combat Turn. Any enhancements
to Reaction and Intuition also affect Initiative.
Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to
take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes
on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative
Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever
achieve 4.

But as I said this does not list it as a attribute if it was the list would be 14 not 13.

This is why I have stated it is a grey area as it is not attribute in the RAW rules nor is it a power.


I look forward to you retracting your statement of IP's being attributes and your personal attack on my level of understanding.

It's actually fairly simple: Initiative Passes are a part of the Initiative attribute. Initiative itself is a Special Attribute, so any part of that stat would also be a Special Attribute.

This is still within the realm of English comprehension.

No, sorry, you are wrong.

I've got the 20th anniversary edition, which supersedes the errata, the FAQ, Street Magic, the base 4th edition book, and pretty much everything else that's been published. Regarding attributes, powers, passes, and the like, the shapechange spell say two things:

1) the caster does gain the physical attributes of the new form (+1 per success)
2) the caster does not gain the mental attributes of the new form (keeping his base stats)

The spell does not mention skills, powers, or other things (like the ability to breathe underwater, fly, or extra initiative passes). The book does not say that you don't get those things, it does not say that you do. It is undefined.

Furthermore, the FAQ is not the rules; in fact, it gets a fair number of things wrong, and is regarded as somewhat unreliable - better than nothing, yes, but not the final word by any stretch of the imagination.

Generally speaking, most people I've talked to assume, using basic logic, that turning into a bird gives you wings (meaning both the ability to move in the air and ranks in the Flying skill) and claws (meaning both the Natural Weapon power and ranks in the Unarmed skill). Likewise, turning into a shark gives you swimming (swim movement, swimming skill, and the untyped "thing" known as working gills). Otherwise, the spell is significantly weaker than it otherwise would be. Assuming that initiative passes also translate is a logical extension.

But you're right, the book does not specifically say that you do get an extra initiative pass if you turn into a wolf. It doesn't say that you grow fur, either. It's implied.

... So you agree and disagree with me?

I never said anything about Shapechange giving skills. Ever. I did say that you get the Physical Attributes (not the Special Attributes, of which Initiative Passes are a part of) and that the FAQ states you get the Powers also. My assertion is that even if you get the Powers of the critter, you still don't get any IPs because IPs are a part of the Initiative attribute, and as such are also a Special Attribute.

Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to
take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes
on the character’s record sheet.


see the part of these are noted

Notes are not attributes

You may believe otherwise but that doesnt make you right. We may see things differently but I draw the line at attacks at my understanding of the rules. If you show me any quoted text from the current edition that states that a IP is one of the previously quoted thirteen attributes and not a notation I will withdraw my comment.

As for skills, no I do not belive you get skills for the abilities but common sense say some will cover unarmed should be fine for claws but flight no. The discussion I had with my gm about the flight aspect was I could learn the skill myself or default on it to start with just as you can default on running.

You definitely don´t get the skills, but initiative passes at ordinary critters are natural abilities based on the body-structure (like faster neural connections with cats etc.) and if you change into a critter, you should also have these natural abilities.

Well, seeing as I do not have access to the "current edition," that may take time.

In the meantime, you should look for something in the rules that states when you cast Shapechange you do in fact gain the IPs of the animal. If you look hard enough you may actually find out that Initiative Passes are a part of the Initiative Special Attribute, making them a Special Attribute also.

EDIT: Actually, using your logic you'd need to actually have a note next to something that tells you when you get another Initiative Pass. So where in Shapechange does it tell you you get one?

All I saw was fluff.

The Rules say that you gain Physical Attributes of the animal. Initiative Passes are listed in the Special Attributes section. You do not get them.

Would you kindly explain where the additional IPs come from in a mundane animal? They can't be from ware or from magic so they must be natural

As to your assurances that a notation is a attribute that is your opinion not a raw ruling and to say otherwise grants you power above your station. There are thirteen attributes not as you put it thirteen but one counts as two

Animals obviously get the extra Initiative Pass because it is noted in their description, in accordance to the rules that you yourself quoted.

If Initative Passes are not a Special Attribute why are Initative Passes listed under Initiative, which is a Special Attribute? What I'm saying is that they are a Special Attribute by extention, being a part of the Initiative Attribute itself.

Even so, you quantified the argument yourself: you only gain extra Initiative Passes when it is noted that you do. Can you show me the note in Shapechange where it tells you to gain an additional Initiative Pass?

We all know that there is a difference about the RAW and the INTENTION of the rule itself. I think the Devs. hoped that, if you are transformed into a quick animal, there shouldn´t be the question if its quickness also comes along if all the other stats are changed as well. The spell transforms you in another lifeform, you also get the same abilities, so why should there be an exception if it is not clearly excepted? Or to turn it another way: where in the rule stands, that the IP´s DON´T come along? There is only one exception to the base animal, and this is a benefit, not an disadvantage. If they wanted the IP´s not to be duplicated, they would have told us in the description.

It's actually very easy: You do not get extra Initiative Passes unless the game tells you you get them. The spell description of Shapechange does not tell you you get extra actions, so you do not get the extra Initiative Passes either.

I also still believe that Initiative Passes are a Special Attribute, as that is the first place they are listed. The spell specifically grants Physical Attributes, the FAQ gives you Powers, but both of them still fail to give you Special Attributes or tell you you gain extra Initiative Passes. This means you don't get them.

If i remember correctly, your side of view also was the prevailing opinion the last few editions regarding enhanced senses, poison bite of snakes and other abilitiesof critters...until the detailed it in the latest FAQ...isn´t it?^^ The question with the IP´s simply haven´t been asked enough to get the dev´s attention.

I think your confusing who your arguring with. I have never said you get the IP's by RAW. I have stated a number of times that I see it as a grey area as the IP's are not directly mentioned in the spell nor any official discussion since.

The number of IP's a item (Covering Metahuman, animal, spirit and drone) gets is not a derived stat like initiative it is a basic notation based on class. Metahuman get 1 Animals fall into 1 or 2, spirit and drone to 3. This seems to me to be a class distinction more then anything. Rather then a attributes issue.

If I have this wrong and it is a derived stat can you please give me the formula so I can update my notes?

I've never said it is a derived stat, just that it seems to be grouped with Initiative since that's where it is listed and Initiative is a Special Attribute.

I also note that the game states you don't gain extra IPs unless the game tells you to gain them, and Shapechange does not tell you to get new IPs.

Let´s rule the Devs......DEVS, could you please handwave a cool ruling so that we don´t kill each other?

Anyone ever play a shapechanging magician and the character paid karma/BP for Flight skill?

Could I just point out the text of the spell?

SR4A
Doesn't say it gives you the SHAPE of the animal, it says you BECOME the animal. It then goes on to list how your magical shape is different from the natural animal. IP's are not mentioned, and thus are NOT different from the natural animal.

My 2 cents.

I have discussed it and agreed that I could on my mage buy up flight after I have been using the spell to take a bird form a couple of times, but as you can default flying like it was running its not come up yet and I can use the K for more fun stuff

My whole point in this has been you become the animal with some extra ommf coming from how much magic you pump into it. I'm still going to say that until the IP's are commented on by the Devs it will remain a grey area open to both sides much as the powers were pre FAQ. I personaly fall on the side of the argument in favour for the IP's being used as it make sense.

I don't see how this is a grey area at all.

In this game you only gain Initiative Passes when it tells you explicitly to get them. Shapechange does not in any way tell you specifically to get extra Initiative Passes. You do not gain extra Initiative Passes.

Cut, plain, dry.

If you wish to ignore the part of the spell which explicit says it transforms you into the animal, then you might otherwise be correct. However being transformed into said animal would grant you the same attributes of the animal unless otherwise stated. The spell then goes on to say how your stats differ from those of the animal, but IP's is not listed as being changed from that of the parent animal.

False. The spell then goes on to say exactly what was gained in turning into the animal - extra Initiative Passes were not mentioned.

EDIT: There's a difference between the fluff and the crunch. You should practice finding it.

False on your part actually. The spell says you are transformed into an animal, and then lists how your new form and the base animal are different.

No sir. The spell says you take a form. The spell then goes on to say exactly what that form does. All it does is mentions Physical attributes, and the FAQ mentions Powers. There's nothing about Initiative Passes or Special Attributes.

EDIT: This is also something important. The sentence you are referencing is the Topic Sentence. That's a brief overview of what the whole paragraph will be describing.

I don't think it's gray at all either.

You change into the animal and then add net hits to your physical stats.
If the animal has extra IP, you get em.

A grizzly bear gets 1 IP, but 9/4/4/9 physical + net hits.
A cheetah gets 2 IP, but 5/5/4/4 physical + net hits.

Can you show me where in the rules it allows you to do this? Everywhere else in the entire game that you get extra Initiative Passes it explicitly tells you you get them. Where in Shapechange does it tell you you get extra Initiative Passes?