Or Possess or Inhabit!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Then don't quote me in your post.

Ur no, I will quote what you said when it is entirely relevant, when it is the context for my post. Which is exactly what it was. The "Usually someone is speaking up only when they are doing something different from most people." sentence is not a complete match for whether or not someone using RAW. Doing something "different from most people" does not necessarily mean not using RAW.

You are still arguing with me and nit picking my post, without contributing your own suggestion or ideas to the thread in general. My impression is that you are questioning me, or attempting to troll the thread or my posts for purely the sake of stimulating argument with me.

Without your contribution, I am unable to determine if my usage is in fact different from everyone else's.

I currently can tell people that I do not vary from the RAW in the case of spirit summoning, which is topical to the thread and OP.

Also, delving into the variations of how RAW is implemented is not the topic of this thread.

For the general sake of argument, I can say that I've never really had a reason for a summoned spirit to use edge to resist. I am aware of the option, and have reasons I would consider it, but those situations have not occurred.

I suggest it is an important point...and re-iterates the problem with the options in this poll.

Also, I have posted a question up thread trying to suss out what the poll questions mean.

Well your [continued] paranoid pissiness can go get stuffed, as far as I'm concerned.

Umm, because nobody else is posting about it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

Incidentally, not that it actually makes a difference about the invalidity of your BS rationalization, I did make a post done up talking about how I treat them like any other NPC and try to assess what the spirit's attitude, with the except that there is somewhat of a shared memory between spirits of the same type (or a scent on the summoner really, but I leave the in-game mechanism vague).....but sadly the Interwebs ate it and I hadn't recreated it, yet. I actually forgot it got eaten, I was posting from my phone at the time.

So do you feel like a Dick now? You should.

Actually the rule on using edge is this Street Magic pg 95 "Spirits can also use Edge to assist their resistance roll to
the original summoning, but will generally not do so unless
the discrepancy in power between them and an impudent
conjurer is large or the conjurer has a history of mistreating
spirits."

So the two reasons is dick abusive mage, and mage summoning spirits which are too powerful. What too powerful means is up to the GM discretion, above your magic rating seems logical, but also a hard and fat everything X force and above seems logical. I can see every 5 force spirit and above being arrogant enough to say, I don't want to be summoned by you.

Also while those are two example it does not mean they are the only two reasons a spirit will use edge.

Oh and we use RAW we actually have to use RAW.

Yeah, that blurb Shinobi just quoted is why I used scare quotes in my last post. The rules leave quite a bit of room for GM discretion when deciding under what conditions a Spirit will choose to put everything they have into defying a summoner.

I've been pondering an edge test either opposed or vs a threshold to see if the spirt rolls edge. I'm strongly leaning to wards the threshold idea. Maybe around 3 modified down with abuse and up with innate grade or such. Basicly you roll force dice and if you beat the threshold the spirit uses edge. Then you have a random system that also gives a hard ish cap on easy summoning. Though I'll need to look at the probabilities of it all to be 100% on my threshold figures.

AS I have stated in Past topics... At our table...

1. All Spirits Force 4 and Above spend Edge to resist (And they generally use it to reroll any failed dice). Generally, Spirits of Force 3 and Below do not Spend Edge unless the MAgfe in question has been a total prick in his relations with SPirits, and if that is the case, even option 2 does not help the situatiuon.

2. A Knowledge SKill: Appeasing Spirits Test may be rolled to mitigate the expenditure of Edge (If you care to do so, most don't)

3. Average Spirit Force in our games flexes between 3-5... we have had only one spirit above Force 6 summoned (it was Force 7) and have had innumerable Force 1-3 Spirits summoned for minor things.

Technically, What we use is RAW, but some may not agree with that...

I would be one of them. Once you start redefining what Knowledge skills do for a character and set an absolute value on where Edge use begins you're starting to go a fair bit beyond the RAW. After all, the RAW mentions abuse and relative power when citing reasons why a Spirit may start using Edge, not absolute values. On a fluff level, many traditions-- particularly those linked to the Charisma attribute, such as the Norse tradition or Shinto-- treat ritual acts and honoring spirits as part of standard operating procedure for practicing their art in general. The idea that a Magic 7 grade 3 initiate kannushi with a Summoning of 6 wouldn't know how to appease a Force 4 Spirit without Knowledge skills hits me as a bit goofy, for example. I'm not really fond of the idea that such a Spirit would automatically wholeheartedly resist someone who by definition is an expert in dealing with the spirit world either. After all, such a Magician wouldn't even be risking physical drain from such an entity.


Anyway though, I can see how it's a consistent and workable ruling in practice, RAW be damned. Plus, you can always just approach the fluff from the school of thought that sees tradition as just the trappings and not truly the process. So I'm not really criticizing you so much as just arguing semantics, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Perhaps (The Kannushi example above)... but who defines what a spirit believes, in relation to being summoned? Answer: The GM Does. Who sets the threshold beyond which the Spirits decide that they are not going to bow to those inferior meatsacks? Answer: The GM Does. As a result, it does not matter HOW powerful the Player Character (or NPC) is if the threshold for Spending Edge is already set.

Additionally, how do you define the undefineable Knowledge Skills then? They, by definition, are defined by the GM... so, you have a Skill that perfroms something by RAW, becasue the RAW states that the GM defines it... Circular Argument perhaps, but no less true.

In the End, no one is mandated that they must possess the Knowledge skill. It is there to provide a role-playing, in game, response to a limitation placed by the GM, that is totally in keeping with the RAW (That Spirits may spend Edge to Resist Summoning/Binding). Arguing that the character knows his tradition is all fine and good, but it has been my experience that very few players follow the tenets of their traditions unless forced to do so... The GM determines if the Player adheres to his traditions of his Tradition. At our table, for those who stringently follow the tradition, they get a break on this Edge expenditure on ocassion.

The Edge Expenditure is a way to keep Spirit levels sane within the game... otherwise the Average Force you tend to have for Spirits is above 8 (because you can't deny that the average Dumpshocker believes that this is the case, all you have to do is read the relevant topics to see that). This is especially because the Drain of such spirits is a joke compared to their power level/effects in the game.

Semantics are a bitch sometimes... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Knowledge Skills are not undefinable. Knowledge Skills are simply what a character knows as opposed to influencing how a character can perform in a given situation. There's a reason you don't see the RAW saying you should defend against getting knifed with Reaction+Blades+Academic Knowledge: Renaissance Weapons-- Quite simply, practical skills are the purview of Active Skills. Knowledge Skills are essentially there to give a meatier dicepool when determining whether the character would know something that the player does not. If you want stuff that shuts down drain, allows feats of strength or lets you do your job better, then that calls for an attribute test or a homebrewed Special Active Skill, not a Knowledge Skill.



Yeah, actually, I can. Further, I don't really care what the average dumpshocker claims when debating the pros and cons of spirit summoning. A lot of the thought exercises on this subject don't really jibe with my personal experience or the simple mathematical reality which states that only truly tweaked summoners are likely to get more than a service or two without use of their own Edge when making use of such monstrosities.

Does not compute. You cannot Edge the same Test twice. This includes not being able to Edge a Test that requires Edge in the first place.

I read it as meaning that the spirit use Edge on the test (which in itself does not require spending Edge but is a normal part of the summoning procedure) and generally by re-rolling failed dices rather than using it to boost his dice pool. So just one Edge spent on a single test, no trouble.

I still see a little problem. The rules (SR4A p 74) say "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did no score a hit". If I understand it correctly - I'm not a native english speaker - you can re-roll only if the initial roll totally failed, with no hits at all, not to re-roll only the dices that failed on a roll that got at least one hit, in which case you should roll just Edge dices (with 6's exploding) and add the successes on the total of the roll.

No, you get to reroll the failed dice, even if you did get some hits. "all of the dice... that did not score a hit."

EDIT: But you're still limited to only being able to roll Edge once per Test. Whether Edge is called for by neccessity of the Test is not important, only that it has been added to a Test.

So "...that did not score a hit" is relative to "dice" rather that to "a single test". OK, fine by me, but the positiong feel a little weird. Should it not have been "re-roll all the dices that did not score a hit on a single test" ?

It's possibly an English thing. As a native English speaker, I'm letting you know that's how the sentence is read.

It's a nice option given that a high Edge score is already advantageous enough without being the only way to have a realistic chance at mitigating a terrible roll.

It probably could have been worded better because my first reaction was the same as yours, then I reread it and saw what it meant. And while I am dyslexic I am a native English speaker. A more clear method would have been something like you can reroll all the dice on a test that were not hits. Because yes did not score a hit kind of does sound like it is saying only when you get 0 hits.

I am fairly sure knowledge skills can be used to help in an active sense as well. Call it a complimentary skill if you want, but knowledge tribal customs might help your etiquette tests when you stumble into a NAN ceremony. You still need to roll the etiquette test, but maybe the threshold will be lower or you might be at a smaller penalty. So yes it seems to me to be a reasonable use of knowledge skills to alter the point at which a spirit uses edge because you know the proper way to kiss ass for your specific spirit group.

As for the high force spirit part, how many successes do you need for the juggernauts of destruction? 1 or 2 hits seems fairly good to me when unleashing something borderline unstoppable. If I waste my bad ass spirit on a chump chore now and then so be it, I just summon another one. First aid will make me better.

I guess my stance is that if they want it to be a complementary skill they should call it a complementary skill and explicitly support it with rules. Situational knowledge may help you know what to do to tilt things in your favor-- For example, knowing what clothes to wear to what night clubs-- but that's only because the Etiquette skill has explicit modifiers such as "not having the right look" built right into the rules. Meanwhile, last I checked, there isn't a "Previously sucked up to spirits" modifier anywhere, nor really should there be since making pacts and cutting deals with Spirits is already quite well covered by the Summoning skill.

No change to the rules. Most summoning is 5-6 for my mages specialty (spirits of man), and 3-4 off specialty for a homebrew tradition with the same spirits as Hermetic tradition>

Regarding 2, I can't imagine why mages in your games wouldn't use it, at force 4 or 5, you basically have blocked summoning for anyone but a troll, with the body to not care about the drain damage.

Edit to add

Also, regarding 1, why use the reroll rules, since at edge = dice pool is the point where it becomes just slightly more effective to roll extra, for the additional exploding dice on the entire pool, instead of merely rerolls.

Okay here Neraph... See if you can Follow this... They Spend edge to Resist the Summoning/Binding... That spent edge is used to roll failed Dice (Generally)... One Edge Spent, for a single purpose...

I do understand how Edge is spent... Not sure where you are getting a Roll That REQUIRES Edge though... This is not Earthdawn after all, and Edge is not Karma...

Nope, No such Modifier as "Previously Sucked up to Spirits Before"...

Knowledge skills may be used singly or in conjunction with an Active Skill by the Rules (Call if Complimentary if you will)... does not really change anything by calling it something else... But here is the thing... there are not comprehensive lists of modifiers that will cover each and every situation, that is why we have a GM... I see no need to remove the GM's input in the game...

Do you see it differently? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)