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IKerensky
Hi,

I was a bit surprised to discover after posting my other thread on spirit summoning that a lot of people have tweaked the rule, slightly (auto Edge use at a certain rating) or heavily ( 1 minuts by level, need of a skill, drain adjustement).

So I am starting this poll to check exactly how many people are using RAW when dealing with Spirits, specifically the Summoning part.

Please only vote 1 if you dont change a thing about the way it is written (example : use of Edge is tied to the MAge behaviour and not automated). Also please post the level range of spirit people are summoning within your rules choice.

I am suspecting that the vast majority isn't using Summoning rules as written but using HR to make them harder. I wont be surprised to see that no-one is using the rules as written without any adjustement.

Regards,

IKe.
Elfenlied
In our games, it's mostly RAW, with two notable exceptions:

1) Spirits will use edge on the binding/summoning roll if their Force rating is greater than your magic rating + power focus. But that's the only time (apart from Spirit bane) where spirits use edge to resist anything.
2) Spirits do not automatically use edge for anything else. The magician, however, shares an edge pool with the spirit. If she wants the spirit to edge on anything, she needs to spend her own edge.

Other than that, it's completely RAW.
IKerensky
So you should have voted 2 smile.gif
Lansdren
I voted RAW as at our table its yet to be a issue, if it comes up who knows how we will change it.
Elfenlied
Ah, I thought the shared edge pool qualifies for 3. Nevermind then, just subtract one from 3 and +1 to 2 wink.gif
Badmoodguy88
QUOTE
1) Spirits will use edge on the binding/summoning roll if their Force rating is greater than your magic rating + power focus. But that's the only time (apart from Spirit bane) where spirits use edge to resist anything.
2) Spirits do not automatically use edge for anything else. The magician, however, shares an edge pool with the spirit. If she wants the spirit to edge on anything, she needs to spend her own edge.

I think this sounds like 3 because of the shared edge thing, but I guess that is not part of the summoning or binding exactly.
Blade
I don't know what to vote: my only houserule is that spirit resist summoning with 2*Force (same as binding) instead of Force. (The difference between binding and summoning is just the nuyen cost).

My reasoning is as follows:
- A mage has a summoning pool of magic+summoning, that can be seen as "mage rating*2"
- RAW, the spirit rolls force against this MR*2. This means a mage can summon a spirit with force = 1.5*MR without too much trouble.
- This spirit's average attribute+skill will be equal to his rating*2.
- Which means that RAW, a mage can safely summon a spirit that will be more powerful than he is.

If the spirits roll force*2, mages will be more likely to summon spirit less powerful than them.
Karoline
True blade, but keep in mind that there are alot of limitations on a summoned spirit vs a bound spirit. It can't go more than a few hundred feet away from you, goes away at sunup/sundown, can't perform some tasks, etc.

But you're right, that does seem like a small inconvenience compared to gaining an ally that is 'better' than you.

This does make getting high force spirits exceedingly difficult though, as you can never have a skill above 6, and magic is absurdly expensive to raise.

Edit: I use the rules exactly as is. Spirits have come up surprisingly rarely in the games I've played so far. They tend to be 3 for that one spirit power, and sometimes 5-6 for combat aid. It largely depends on the type of game you're playing. If everyone is tricked out, it isn't hard at all for a mage to summon an F6 spirit.
IKerensky
I think that this is a 3 Blade,just the same than Elf smile.gif
Nifft
We're using RAW until we encounter problems, then we're going to consider house rules.
Trevalier
We use RAW in our game--which suits me, since my character does a lot of summoning. It hasn't been an issue yet, though that may in part be the result of me avoiding some of the more egregious possession-tradition powergaming in an effort to maintain balance with the other characters. The GM and I have something of a tacit understanding--if he puts some silly overpowered railroad thing in front of us, I'm allowed to take the gloves off to try to beat it. (He's usually pretty good about such things--it's only happened once, and that's because a published mission keyed a major plot point to a scenario like that.)
Neraph
If you couldn't tell by many of my posts, I use RAW fairly evenly for pretty much everything. There's a couple of notably absurd situations where we travel off the beaten path of RAW in search of the elusive RAI though - for example, spirits not being able to Materialize, Possess, or Inhabit. Or (cross)bows not being able to be fired. Things like that.

But summoning goes by RAW (you can only have 1 easy-to-summon spirit at a time - if you want something better, or more of them, you need to go through the extra pain), as do SnS rounds, and my interpretation of ItNW and ItF, among others.
Summerstorm
I use RAW...

The Mage in my group normaly uses Force 5-6, never less. He could get much higher ones, though (Pixie mage... VERY minmaxed). The Character relies VERY much on them and if it goes on like this i think i may let him roll against addiction or mental problems. (Whenever there is ANYTHING going on, he calls a spirit. Mostly Air to fight or Guidance to have the future revealed to him... or fight.)

The normal actions go: I use my concealment power to try and not be seen... call a spirit to do whatever it is i have to do and hide (occasional stunbolt).

Problem of course is: Spirits are much more dangerous than before. This one Pixie mage is overshadowing much of the team, especially in physical conflict. (4 IP as the only member of the team, can take out non-mages in one complex action and her spirits can take out non-melee specialists in one action too).

Spirits using edge to resist the summoning... had to do it once. But that was pretty much a trap of myself and supported by fluff (calling him to where he doesn't belong while on a metaquest)
Dwight
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Sep 8 2010, 01:39 AM) *
So you should have voted 2 smile.gif

But discretionary use of Edge to resist is a #1, right? You call it a #2 because he has a hard-and-fast formula for when Edge gets used?
Neraph
Summer, you should use more AoE attacks. If they can't see the target, enlarge the attack.

Also, Mana Static. Not every time, mind you, but it's dang effective. Or just an ambient BC, especially if they're doing a 'run on a corporate mage facility. There's certain to be aspected BC in there.
DireRadiant
Remember that it's relatively uninteresting for people to go around posting, "I follow the rules I follow the rules I follow the rules." most of the time. Usually someone is speaking up only when they are doing something different from most people.
Dwight
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Sep 8 2010, 10:22 AM) *
Remember that it's relatively uninteresting for people to go around posting, "I follow the rules I follow the rules I follow the rules." most of the time. Usually someone is speaking up only when they are doing something different from most people.

The far more interesting thing is what you do within RAW. For example, do you have spirits resist with Edge? ((Unless resisting with Edge isn't RAW anymore?)) When/why does that happen? What's it look like at the table?
Badmoodguy88
Resisting the binding maybe, but the spirits of your tradition are supposed to be on fairly friendly terms with you. They don't instantly get a superiority complex because they are stronger or smarter than you.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Dwight @ Sep 8 2010, 11:27 AM) *
The far more interesting thing is what you do with RAW. Do you have spirits resist with Edge, for example. ((Unless resisting with Edge isn't RAW anymore?)) When/why does that happen? What's it look like at the table?


I'll answer after you explain what you do first. Or perhaps after you explain what you are trying to discover.
DMiller
We use RAW for all summoning ATT. However after seeing the modified rules about using Edge, I am considering adding this to the game that I run (occasionally). However I believe the game I play in will remain RAW.

-D
tagz
I obtained from the vote. I don't feel mine quite fit.

At my table we use the optional rules for Drain (and Fading) for Summoning/Binding (and Compiling/Registering) as laid out in SM p31. Personally I think everyone prefers the somewhat more predictable amounts of Drain even if it tends to make lower level summons a little higher on average. Also, still minimum 2DV, even with a F1 that gets no hits. This also has the effect of making a spirit or sprite that chose to edge the roll do less extra damage because of it, so spirit/sprite edge resistance isn't quite so scary a threat at my table.

Otherwise it's fairly RAW as per SM p95. Edge use by the spirit during the resistance test is something that can happen, but is determined mostly by roleplay and in part by the numbers. So for instance, a mage wants to summon a F10 spirit and has a magic of 5. That's the upper end of what he can do so he better be on good terms with the spirits. If he is then it's all good. If it's fairly neutral, well, it IS an entity with a solid 5 magic on him so an edge on the risistance is still possible but not likely unless this is something done often.

Now if Magic 5 mage summoned any spirit and mistreated it badly then you can bet that even a lowly F1 spirit would edge to not be summoned. Just a little bit of insulting and such? Then maybe only spirits a few points above the magician's force would edge. It's almost entirely roleplay dependent at my table, the force just keys me into how to treat the roleplaying.

And despite whatever tradition roleplaying is important. Even the Hermetic view of spirits as tools. Even tools need cleaning and to be taken care of.
jakephillips
We do summon spirits by the rules. My folks normally summon 5-6 spirits but my mage is not Min MAxed to the MAX like some folks. Not an issue for game balance in my game.
Neurosis
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Sep 8 2010, 03:10 AM) *
Hi,

I was a bit surprised to discover after posting my other thread on spirit summoning that a lot of people have tweaked the rule, slightly (auto Edge use at a certain rating) or heavily ( 1 minuts by level, need of a skill, drain adjustement).

So I am starting this poll to check exactly how many people are using RAW when dealing with Spirits, specifically the Summoning part.

Please only vote 1 if you dont change a thing about the way it is written (example : use of Edge is tied to the MAge behaviour and not automated). Also please post the level range of spirit people are summoning within your rules choice.

I am suspecting that the vast majority isn't using Summoning rules as written but using HR to make them harder. I wont be surprised to see that no-one is using the rules as written without any adjustement.

Regards,

IKe.


I am using the RAW um...except the part of it that apparently says spirits can't materialize. : /

My players usually summon around Force 5 spirits. They don't tend to go much lower or higher than Magic. Of course everything that happens at my gaming table is skewed by my stupidly good dice luck. With the amount of hits I tend to roll (it can be very frustrating when GMing) summoning a spirit of higher than Force 5 is a dicey proposition.
Dwight
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Sep 8 2010, 03:17 PM) *
I'll answer after you explain what you do first.

I wasn't asking you explicitly. My point was that someone saying "I use RAW" wasn't boring at all when include what they what they do with RAW. Because RAW doesn't actually nail down what is happening at the table. The GM may use the spirit's Edge to resist thus the GM always electing to use Edge is actually RAW (which is why I find this poll's wording.....dubious) as is never electing to use it as is the GM that whimsically elects to use it or has some explicit guidelines for it (previously summoned spirit of that type was sent into harms way and seriously injuried), all these likely to lead to much different results.
QUOTE
Or perhaps after you explain what you are trying to discover.

Why would that matter? The questions wouldn't be clear enough, if I was actually asking you?
Whipstitch
The only thing I do with summoning that's "different" isn't inspired by any balance concerns. For example, when my group had a black magician I was quicker to pull out the Edge when he tried summoning or binding a real strong Spirit than with other traditions. On the other hand, I didn't really penalize him for "abusing" Spirits-- the tradition is about dominance and personal power, after all. If you can pull something off, well, you earned it. Just don't expect anyone to volunteer anything. Likewise shamans have an easier time getting high powered spirits to help out on the tradition's pet causes but react badly when you abuse things. It's really just about flavor.

Neraph
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 8 2010, 09:12 PM) *
I am using the RAW um...except the part of it that apparently says spirits can't materialize. : /

Or Possess or Inhabit!

rollin.gif vegm.gif
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Dwight @ Sep 8 2010, 10:44 PM) *
I wasn't asking you explicitly. My point was that someone saying "I use RAW" wasn't boring at all when include what they what they do with RAW. Because RAW doesn't actually nail down what is happening at the table. The GM may use the spirit's Edge to resist thus the GM always electing to use Edge is actually RAW (which is why I find this poll's wording.....dubious) as is never electing to use it as is the GM that whimsically elects to use it or has some explicit guidelines for it (previously summoned spirit of that type was sent into harms way and seriously injuried), all these likely to lead to much different results.

Why would that matter? The questions wouldn't be clear enough, if I was actually asking you?


Then don't quote me in your post.
Dwight
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Sep 9 2010, 10:43 AM) *
Then don't quote me in your post.


Ur no, I will quote what you said when it is entirely relevant, when it is the context for my post. Which is exactly what it was. The "Usually someone is speaking up only when they are doing something different from most people." sentence is not a complete match for whether or not someone using RAW. Doing something "different from most people" does not necessarily mean not using RAW.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Dwight @ Sep 9 2010, 01:17 PM) *
Ur no, I will quote what you said when it is entirely relevant, when it is the context for my post. Which is exactly what it was. The "Usually someone is speaking up only when they are doing something different from most people." sentence is not a complete match for whether or not someone using RAW. Doing something "different from most people" does not necessarily mean not using RAW.


You are still arguing with me and nit picking my post, without contributing your own suggestion or ideas to the thread in general. My impression is that you are questioning me, or attempting to troll the thread or my posts for purely the sake of stimulating argument with me.

Without your contribution, I am unable to determine if my usage is in fact different from everyone else's.

I currently can tell people that I do not vary from the RAW in the case of spirit summoning, which is topical to the thread and OP.

Also, delving into the variations of how RAW is implemented is not the topic of this thread.

For the general sake of argument, I can say that I've never really had a reason for a summoned spirit to use edge to resist. I am aware of the option, and have reasons I would consider it, but those situations have not occurred.
Dwight
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Sep 9 2010, 01:34 PM) *
You are still arguing with me and nit picking my post, without contributing your own suggestion or ideas to the thread in general.

I suggest it is an important point...and re-iterates the problem with the options in this poll.

Also, I have posted a question up thread trying to suss out what the poll questions mean.
QUOTE
My impression is that you are questioning me, or attempting to troll the thread or my posts for purely the sake of stimulating argument with me.

Well your [continued] paranoid pissiness can go get stuffed, as far as I'm concerned.
QUOTE
Without your contribution, I am unable to determine if my usage is in fact different from everyone else's.

Umm, because nobody else is posting about it? dead.gif

Incidentally, not that it actually makes a difference about the invalidity of your BS rationalization, I did make a post done up talking about how I treat them like any other NPC and try to assess what the spirit's attitude, with the except that there is somewhat of a shared memory between spirits of the same type (or a scent on the summoner really, but I leave the in-game mechanism vague).....but sadly the Interwebs ate it and I hadn't recreated it, yet. I actually forgot it got eaten, I was posting from my phone at the time.

So do you feel like a Dick now? You should.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Sep 8 2010, 04:39 AM) *
So you should have voted 2 smile.gif


Actually the rule on using edge is this Street Magic pg 95 "Spirits can also use Edge to assist their resistance roll to
the original summoning, but will generally not do so unless
the discrepancy in power between them and an impudent
conjurer is large or the conjurer has a history of mistreating
spirits."

So the two reasons is dick abusive mage, and mage summoning spirits which are too powerful. What too powerful means is up to the GM discretion, above your magic rating seems logical, but also a hard and fat everything X force and above seems logical. I can see every 5 force spirit and above being arrogant enough to say, I don't want to be summoned by you.

Also while those are two example it does not mean they are the only two reasons a spirit will use edge.

Oh and we use RAW we actually have to use RAW.
Whipstitch
Yeah, that blurb Shinobi just quoted is why I used scare quotes in my last post. The rules leave quite a bit of room for GM discretion when deciding under what conditions a Spirit will choose to put everything they have into defying a summoner.
Dumori
I've been pondering an edge test either opposed or vs a threshold to see if the spirt rolls edge. I'm strongly leaning to wards the threshold idea. Maybe around 3 modified down with abuse and up with innate grade or such. Basicly you roll force dice and if you beat the threshold the spirit uses edge. Then you have a random system that also gives a hard ish cap on easy summoning. Though I'll need to look at the probabilities of it all to be 100% on my threshold figures.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
AS I have stated in Past topics... At our table...

1. All Spirits Force 4 and Above spend Edge to resist (And they generally use it to reroll any failed dice). Generally, Spirits of Force 3 and Below do not Spend Edge unless the MAgfe in question has been a total prick in his relations with SPirits, and if that is the case, even option 2 does not help the situatiuon.

2. A Knowledge SKill: Appeasing Spirits Test may be rolled to mitigate the expenditure of Edge (If you care to do so, most don't)

3. Average Spirit Force in our games flexes between 3-5... we have had only one spirit above Force 6 summoned (it was Force 7) and have had innumerable Force 1-3 Spirits summoned for minor things.

Technically, What we use is RAW, but some may not agree with that...
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 9 2010, 08:35 PM) *
Technically, What we use is RAW, but some may not agree with that...


I would be one of them. Once you start redefining what Knowledge skills do for a character and set an absolute value on where Edge use begins you're starting to go a fair bit beyond the RAW. After all, the RAW mentions abuse and relative power when citing reasons why a Spirit may start using Edge, not absolute values. On a fluff level, many traditions-- particularly those linked to the Charisma attribute, such as the Norse tradition or Shinto-- treat ritual acts and honoring spirits as part of standard operating procedure for practicing their art in general. The idea that a Magic 7 grade 3 initiate kannushi with a Summoning of 6 wouldn't know how to appease a Force 4 Spirit without Knowledge skills hits me as a bit goofy, for example. I'm not really fond of the idea that such a Spirit would automatically wholeheartedly resist someone who by definition is an expert in dealing with the spirit world either. After all, such a Magician wouldn't even be risking physical drain from such an entity.


Anyway though, I can see how it's a consistent and workable ruling in practice, RAW be damned. Plus, you can always just approach the fluff from the school of thought that sees tradition as just the trappings and not truly the process. So I'm not really criticizing you so much as just arguing semantics, I guess. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Sep 9 2010, 07:33 PM) *
I would be one of them. Once you start redefining what Knowledge skills do for a character and set an absolute value on where Edge use begins you're starting to go a fair bit beyond the RAW. After all, the RAW mentions abuse and relative power when citing reasons why a Spirit may start using Edge, not absolute values. On a fluff level, many traditions-- particularly those linked to the Charisma attribute, such as the Norse tradition or Shinto-- treat ritual acts and honoring spirits as part of standard operating procedure for practicing their art in general. The idea that a Magic 7 grade 3 initiate kannushi with a Summoning of 6 wouldn't know how to appease a Force 4 Spirit without Knowledge skills hits me as a bit goofy, for example. I'm not really fond of the idea that such a Spirit would automatically wholeheartedly resist someone who by definition is an expert in dealing with the spirit world either. After all, such a Magician wouldn't even be risking physical drain from such an entity.


Anyway though, I can see how it's a consistent and workable ruling though. Plus, you can always just approach the fluff from the school of thought that sees tradition as just the trappings and not truly the process. So I'm not really criticizing you so much as just arguing semantics, I guess. smile.gif


Perhaps (The Kannushi example above)... but who defines what a spirit believes, in relation to being summoned? Answer: The GM Does. Who sets the threshold beyond which the Spirits decide that they are not going to bow to those inferior meatsacks? Answer: The GM Does. As a result, it does not matter HOW powerful the Player Character (or NPC) is if the threshold for Spending Edge is already set.

Additionally, how do you define the undefineable Knowledge Skills then? They, by definition, are defined by the GM... so, you have a Skill that perfroms something by RAW, becasue the RAW states that the GM defines it... Circular Argument perhaps, but no less true.

In the End, no one is mandated that they must possess the Knowledge skill. It is there to provide a role-playing, in game, response to a limitation placed by the GM, that is totally in keeping with the RAW (That Spirits may spend Edge to Resist Summoning/Binding). Arguing that the character knows his tradition is all fine and good, but it has been my experience that very few players follow the tenets of their traditions unless forced to do so... The GM determines if the Player adheres to his traditions of his Tradition. At our table, for those who stringently follow the tradition, they get a break on this Edge expenditure on ocassion.

The Edge Expenditure is a way to keep Spirit levels sane within the game... otherwise the Average Force you tend to have for Spirits is above 8 (because you can't deny that the average Dumpshocker believes that this is the case, all you have to do is read the relevant topics to see that). This is especially because the Drain of such spirits is a joke compared to their power level/effects in the game.

Semantics are a bitch sometimes... wobble.gif
Whipstitch
Knowledge Skills are not undefinable. Knowledge Skills are simply what a character knows as opposed to influencing how a character can perform in a given situation. There's a reason you don't see the RAW saying you should defend against getting knifed with Reaction+Blades+Academic Knowledge: Renaissance Weapons-- Quite simply, practical skills are the purview of Active Skills. Knowledge Skills are essentially there to give a meatier dicepool when determining whether the character would know something that the player does not. If you want stuff that shuts down drain, allows feats of strength or lets you do your job better, then that calls for an attribute test or a homebrewed Special Active Skill, not a Knowledge Skill.

QUOTE
(because you can't deny that the average Dumpshocker believes that this is the case, all you have to do is read the relevant topics to see that).


Yeah, actually, I can. Further, I don't really care what the average dumpshocker claims when debating the pros and cons of spirit summoning. A lot of the thought exercises on this subject don't really jibe with my personal experience or the simple mathematical reality which states that only truly tweaked summoners are likely to get more than a service or two without use of their own Edge when making use of such monstrosities.
Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 9 2010, 08:35 PM) *
1. All Spirits Force 4 and Above spend Edge to resist (And they generally use it to reroll any failed dice). Generally, Spirits of Force 3 and Below do not Spend Edge unless the MAgfe in question has been a total prick in his relations with SPirits, and if that is the case, even option 2 does not help the situatiuon.

Technically, What we use is RAW, but some may not agree with that...

Does not compute. You cannot Edge the same Test twice. This includes not being able to Edge a Test that requires Edge in the first place.
Dahrken
I read it as meaning that the spirit use Edge on the test (which in itself does not require spending Edge but is a normal part of the summoning procedure) and generally by re-rolling failed dices rather than using it to boost his dice pool. So just one Edge spent on a single test, no trouble.

I still see a little problem. The rules (SR4A p 74) say "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did no score a hit". If I understand it correctly - I'm not a native english speaker - you can re-roll only if the initial roll totally failed, with no hits at all, not to re-roll only the dices that failed on a roll that got at least one hit, in which case you should roll just Edge dices (with 6's exploding) and add the successes on the total of the roll.
Neraph
No, you get to reroll the failed dice, even if you did get some hits. "all of the dice... that did not score a hit."

EDIT: But you're still limited to only being able to roll Edge once per Test. Whether Edge is called for by neccessity of the Test is not important, only that it has been added to a Test.
Dahrken
So "...that did not score a hit" is relative to "dice" rather that to "a single test". OK, fine by me, but the positiong feel a little weird. Should it not have been "re-roll all the dices that did not score a hit on a single test" ?
Neraph
It's possibly an English thing. As a native English speaker, I'm letting you know that's how the sentence is read.
Whipstitch
It's a nice option given that a high Edge score is already advantageous enough without being the only way to have a realistic chance at mitigating a terrible roll.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Dahrken @ Sep 10 2010, 12:22 AM) *
So "...that did not score a hit" is relative to "dice" rather that to "a single test". OK, fine by me, but the positiong feel a little weird. Should it not have been "re-roll all the dices that did not score a hit on a single test" ?


It probably could have been worded better because my first reaction was the same as yours, then I reread it and saw what it meant. And while I am dyslexic I am a native English speaker. A more clear method would have been something like you can reroll all the dice on a test that were not hits. Because yes did not score a hit kind of does sound like it is saying only when you get 0 hits.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Sep 9 2010, 11:39 PM) *
Knowledge Skills are not undefinable. Knowledge Skills are simply what a character knows as opposed to influencing how a character can perform in a given situation. There's a reason you don't see the RAW saying you should defend against getting knifed with Reaction+Blades+Academic Knowledge: Renaissance Weapons-- Quite simply, practical skills are the purview of Active Skills. Knowledge Skills are essentially there to give a meatier dicepool when determining whether the character would know something that the player does not. If you want stuff that shuts down drain, allows feats of strength or lets you do your job better, then that calls for an attribute test or a homebrewed Special Active Skill, not a Knowledge Skill.



Yeah, actually, I can. Further, I don't really care what the average dumpshocker claims when debating the pros and cons of spirit summoning. A lot of the thought exercises on this subject don't really jibe with my personal experience or the simple mathematical reality which states that only truly tweaked summoners are likely to get more than a service or two without use of their own Edge when making use of such monstrosities.



I am fairly sure knowledge skills can be used to help in an active sense as well. Call it a complimentary skill if you want, but knowledge tribal customs might help your etiquette tests when you stumble into a NAN ceremony. You still need to roll the etiquette test, but maybe the threshold will be lower or you might be at a smaller penalty. So yes it seems to me to be a reasonable use of knowledge skills to alter the point at which a spirit uses edge because you know the proper way to kiss ass for your specific spirit group.

As for the high force spirit part, how many successes do you need for the juggernauts of destruction? 1 or 2 hits seems fairly good to me when unleashing something borderline unstoppable. If I waste my bad ass spirit on a chump chore now and then so be it, I just summon another one. First aid will make me better.
Whipstitch
I guess my stance is that if they want it to be a complementary skill they should call it a complementary skill and explicitly support it with rules. Situational knowledge may help you know what to do to tilt things in your favor-- For example, knowing what clothes to wear to what night clubs-- but that's only because the Etiquette skill has explicit modifiers such as "not having the right look" built right into the rules. Meanwhile, last I checked, there isn't a "Previously sucked up to spirits" modifier anywhere, nor really should there be since making pacts and cutting deals with Spirits is already quite well covered by the Summoning skill.
Walpurgisborn
No change to the rules. Most summoning is 5-6 for my mages specialty (spirits of man), and 3-4 off specialty for a homebrew tradition with the same spirits as Hermetic tradition>
Walpurgisborn
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 9 2010, 08:35 PM) *
1. All Spirits Force 4 and Above spend Edge to resist (And they generally use it to reroll any failed dice). Generally, Spirits of Force 3 and Below do not Spend Edge unless the MAgfe in question has been a total prick in his relations with SPirits, and if that is the case, even option 2 does not help the situatiuon.

2. A Knowledge SKill: Appeasing Spirits Test may be rolled to mitigate the expenditure of Edge (If you care to do so, most don't)


Technically, What we use is RAW, but some may not agree with that...

Regarding 2, I can't imagine why mages in your games wouldn't use it, at force 4 or 5, you basically have blocked summoning for anyone but a troll, with the body to not care about the drain damage.

Edit to add

Also, regarding 1, why use the reroll rules, since at edge = dice pool is the point where it becomes just slightly more effective to roll extra, for the additional exploding dice on the entire pool, instead of merely rerolls.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 9 2010, 10:05 PM) *
Does not compute. You cannot Edge the same Test twice. This includes not being able to Edge a Test that requires Edge in the first place.


Okay here Neraph... See if you can Follow this... They Spend edge to Resist the Summoning/Binding... That spent edge is used to roll failed Dice (Generally)... One Edge Spent, for a single purpose...

I do understand how Edge is spent... Not sure where you are getting a Roll That REQUIRES Edge though... This is not Earthdawn after all, and Edge is not Karma...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Sep 10 2010, 11:45 AM) *
I guess my stance is that if they want it to be a complementary skill they should call it a complementary skill and explicitly support it with rules. Situational knowledge may help you know what to do to tilt things in your favor-- For example, knowing what clothes to wear to what night clubs-- but that's only because the Etiquette skill has explicit modifiers such as "not having the right look" built right into the rules. Meanwhile, last I checked, there isn't a "Previously sucked up to spirits" modifier anywhere, nor really should there be since making pacts and cutting deals with Spirits is already quite well covered by the Summoning skill.



Nope, No such Modifier as "Previously Sucked up to Spirits Before"...

Knowledge skills may be used singly or in conjunction with an Active Skill by the Rules (Call if Complimentary if you will)... does not really change anything by calling it something else... But here is the thing... there are not comprehensive lists of modifiers that will cover each and every situation, that is why we have a GM... I see no need to remove the GM's input in the game...

Do you see it differently? smokin.gif
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