Do you summon Spirit by the rules ? Options

[IKerensky]

Hi,

I was a bit surprised to discover after posting my other thread on spirit summoning that a lot of people have tweaked the rule, slightly (auto Edge use at a certain rating) or heavily ( 1 minuts by level, need of a skill, drain adjustement).

So I am starting this poll to check exactly how many people are using RAW when dealing with Spirits, specifically the Summoning part.

Please only vote 1 if you dont change a thing about the way it is written (example : use of Edge is tied to the MAge behaviour and not automated). Also please post the level range of spirit people are summoning within your rules choice.

I am suspecting that the vast majority isn't using Summoning rules as written but using HR to make them harder. I wont be surprised to see that no-one is using the rules as written without any adjustement.

Regards,

IKe.

[Elfenlied]

In our games, it's mostly RAW, with two notable exceptions:

1) Spirits will use edge on the binding/summoning roll if their Force rating is greater than your magic rating + power focus. But that's the only time (apart from Spirit bane) where spirits use edge to resist anything.
2) Spirits do not automatically use edge for anything else. The magician, however, shares an edge pool with the spirit. If she wants the spirit to edge on anything, she needs to spend her own edge.

Other than that, it's completely RAW.

[IKerensky]

So you should have voted 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lansdren]

I voted RAW as at our table its yet to be a issue, if it comes up who knows how we will change it.

[Elfenlied]

Ah, I thought the shared edge pool qualifies for 3. Nevermind then, just subtract one from 3 and +1 to 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Badmoodguy88]

1) Spirits will use edge on the binding/summoning roll if their Force rating is greater than your magic rating + power focus. But that's the only time (apart from Spirit bane) where spirits use edge to resist anything.
2) Spirits do not automatically use edge for anything else. The magician, however, shares an edge pool with the spirit. If she wants the spirit to edge on anything, she needs to spend her own edge.

I think this sounds like 3 because of the shared edge thing, but I guess that is not part of the summoning or binding exactly.

[Blade]

I don't know what to vote: my only houserule is that spirit resist summoning with 2*Force (same as binding) instead of Force. (The difference between binding and summoning is just the nuyen cost).

My reasoning is as follows:
- A mage has a summoning pool of magic+summoning, that can be seen as "mage rating*2"
- RAW, the spirit rolls force against this MR*2. This means a mage can summon a spirit with force = 1.5*MR without too much trouble.
- This spirit's average attribute+skill will be equal to his rating*2.
- Which means that RAW, a mage can safely summon a spirit that will be more powerful than he is.

If the spirits roll force*2, mages will be more likely to summon spirit less powerful than them.

[Karoline]

True blade, but keep in mind that there are alot of limitations on a summoned spirit vs a bound spirit. It can't go more than a few hundred feet away from you, goes away at sunup/sundown, can't perform some tasks, etc.

But you're right, that does seem like a small inconvenience compared to gaining an ally that is 'better' than you.

This does make getting high force spirits exceedingly difficult though, as you can never have a skill above 6, and magic is absurdly expensive to raise.

Edit: I use the rules exactly as is. Spirits have come up surprisingly rarely in the games I've played so far. They tend to be 3 for that one spirit power, and sometimes 5-6 for combat aid. It largely depends on the type of game you're playing. If everyone is tricked out, it isn't hard at all for a mage to summon an F6 spirit.

[IKerensky]

I think that this is a 3 Blade,just the same than Elf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Nifft]

We're using RAW until we encounter problems, then we're going to consider house rules.

[Trevalier]

We use RAW in our game--which suits me, since my character does a lot of summoning. It hasn't been an issue yet, though that may in part be the result of me avoiding some of the more egregious possession-tradition powergaming in an effort to maintain balance with the other characters. The GM and I have something of a tacit understanding--if he puts some silly overpowered railroad thing in front of us, I'm allowed to take the gloves off to try to beat it. (He's usually pretty good about such things--it's only happened once, and that's because a published mission keyed a major plot point to a scenario like that.)

[Neraph]

If you couldn't tell by many of my posts, I use RAW fairly evenly for pretty much everything. There's a couple of notably absurd situations where we travel off the beaten path of RAW in search of the elusive RAI though - for example, spirits not being able to Materialize, Possess, or Inhabit. Or (cross)bows not being able to be fired. Things like that.

But summoning goes by RAW (you can only have 1 easy-to-summon spirit at a time - if you want something better, or more of them, you need to go through the extra pain), as do SnS rounds, and my interpretation of ItNW and ItF, among others.

[Summerstorm]

I use RAW...

The Mage in my group normaly uses Force 5-6, never less. He could get much higher ones, though (Pixie mage... VERY minmaxed). The Character relies VERY much on them and if it goes on like this i think i may let him roll against addiction or mental problems. (Whenever there is ANYTHING going on, he calls a spirit. Mostly Air to fight or Guidance to have the future revealed to him... or fight.)

The normal actions go: I use my concealment power to try and not be seen... call a spirit to do whatever it is i have to do and hide (occasional stunbolt).

Problem of course is: Spirits are much more dangerous than before. This one Pixie mage is overshadowing much of the team, especially in physical conflict. (4 IP as the only member of the team, can take out non-mages in one complex action and her spirits can take out non-melee specialists in one action too).

Spirits using edge to resist the summoning... had to do it once. But that was pretty much a trap of myself and supported by fluff (calling him to where he doesn't belong while on a metaquest)

[Dwight]

So you should have voted 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But discretionary use of Edge to resist is a #1, right? You call it a #2 because he has a hard-and-fast formula for when Edge gets used?

[Neraph]

Summer, you should use more AoE attacks. If they can't see the target, enlarge the attack.

Also, Mana Static. Not every time, mind you, but it's dang effective. Or just an ambient BC, especially if they're doing a 'run on a corporate mage facility. There's certain to be aspected BC in there.

[DireRadiant]

Remember that it's relatively uninteresting for people to go around posting, "I follow the rules I follow the rules I follow the rules." most of the time. Usually someone is speaking up only when they are doing something different from most people.

[Dwight]

Remember that it's relatively uninteresting for people to go around posting, "I follow the rules I follow the rules I follow the rules." most of the time. Usually someone is speaking up only when they are doing something different from most people.

The far more interesting thing is what you do within RAW. For example, do you have spirits resist with Edge? ((Unless resisting with Edge isn't RAW anymore?)) When/why does that happen? What's it look like at the table?

[Badmoodguy88]

Resisting the binding maybe, but the spirits of your tradition are supposed to be on fairly friendly terms with you. They don't instantly get a superiority complex because they are stronger or smarter than you.

[DireRadiant]

The far more interesting thing is what you do with RAW. Do you have spirits resist with Edge, for example. ((Unless resisting with Edge isn't RAW anymore?)) When/why does that happen? What's it look like at the table?

I'll answer after you explain what you do first. Or perhaps after you explain what you are trying to discover.

[DMiller]

We use RAW for all summoning ATT. However after seeing the modified rules about using Edge, I am considering adding this to the game that I run (occasionally). However I believe the game I play in will remain RAW.

-D

[tagz]

I obtained from the vote. I don't feel mine quite fit.

At my table we use the optional rules for Drain (and Fading) for Summoning/Binding (and Compiling/Registering) as laid out in SM p31. Personally I think everyone prefers the somewhat more predictable amounts of Drain even if it tends to make lower level summons a little higher on average. Also, still minimum 2DV, even with a F1 that gets no hits. This also has the effect of making a spirit or sprite that chose to edge the roll do less extra damage because of it, so spirit/sprite edge resistance isn't quite so scary a threat at my table.

Otherwise it's fairly RAW as per SM p95. Edge use by the spirit during the resistance test is something that can happen, but is determined mostly by roleplay and in part by the numbers. So for instance, a mage wants to summon a F10 spirit and has a magic of 5. That's the upper end of what he can do so he better be on good terms with the spirits. If he is then it's all good. If it's fairly neutral, well, it IS an entity with a solid 5 magic on him so an edge on the risistance is still possible but not likely unless this is something done often.

Now if Magic 5 mage summoned any spirit and mistreated it badly then you can bet that even a lowly F1 spirit would edge to not be summoned. Just a little bit of insulting and such? Then maybe only spirits a few points above the magician's force would edge. It's almost entirely roleplay dependent at my table, the force just keys me into how to treat the roleplaying.

And despite whatever tradition roleplaying is important. Even the Hermetic view of spirits as tools. Even tools need cleaning and to be taken care of.

[jakephillips]

We do summon spirits by the rules. My folks normally summon 5-6 spirits but my mage is not Min MAxed to the MAX like some folks. Not an issue for game balance in my game.

[Neurosis]

Hi,

I was a bit surprised to discover after posting my other thread on spirit summoning that a lot of people have tweaked the rule, slightly (auto Edge use at a certain rating) or heavily ( 1 minuts by level, need of a skill, drain adjustement).

So I am starting this poll to check exactly how many people are using RAW when dealing with Spirits, specifically the Summoning part.

Please only vote 1 if you dont change a thing about the way it is written (example : use of Edge is tied to the MAge behaviour and not automated). Also please post the level range of spirit people are summoning within your rules choice.

I am suspecting that the vast majority isn't using Summoning rules as written but using HR to make them harder. I wont be surprised to see that no-one is using the rules as written without any adjustement.

Regards,

IKe.

I am using the RAW um...except the part of it that apparently says spirits can't materialize. : /

My players usually summon around Force 5 spirits. They don't tend to go much lower or higher than Magic. Of course everything that happens at my gaming table is skewed by my stupidly good dice luck. With the amount of hits I tend to roll (it can be very frustrating when GMing) summoning a spirit of higher than Force 5 is a dicey proposition.

[Dwight]

I'll answer after you explain what you do first.

I wasn't asking you explicitly. My point was that someone saying "I use RAW" wasn't boring at all when include what they what they do with RAW. Because RAW doesn't actually nail down what is happening at the table. The GM may use the spirit's Edge to resist thus the GM always electing to use Edge is actually RAW (which is why I find this poll's wording.....dubious) as is never electing to use it as is the GM that whimsically elects to use it or has some explicit guidelines for it (previously summoned spirit of that type was sent into harms way and seriously injuried), all these likely to lead to much different results.

Or perhaps after you explain what you are trying to discover.

Why would that matter? The questions wouldn't be clear enough, if I was actually asking you?

[Whipstitch]

The only thing I do with summoning that's "different" isn't inspired by any balance concerns. For example, when my group had a black magician I was quicker to pull out the Edge when he tried summoning or binding a real strong Spirit than with other traditions. On the other hand, I didn't really penalize him for "abusing" Spirits-- the tradition is about dominance and personal power, after all. If you can pull something off, well, you earned it. Just don't expect anyone to volunteer anything. Likewise shamans have an easier time getting high powered spirits to help out on the tradition's pet causes but react badly when you abuse things. It's really just about flavor.