I hope you are as happy with dealing with my force 12 mana bolt that kills the tank on pass one. Deal with that! If you spend all of that to be indestructible i hope you are as happy when you are full bursted with stick and shock rounds 15S plus successes Electric with ap half your 40 armor to 20. Or narcoed with darts only takes 2 successes for 10 stun each no armor.
Ok I delt with it...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Jakephillips, who are you arguing against? Stahlseele's point is precisely that bullet-immune isn't the same as everything-immune. He agrees with your manabolt. He's not 'bragging' about 'his' troll tank.

I, on the other hand, don't agree that a bullet-immune character is balanced just because magic or toxins could hurt him. It *could* really skew the game, because the game expects bullets to be a threat. It's not automatically destroying every possible game, but it does distort things and force the GM to specifically compensate. That's all.

Though any none bullet threat to the tank is an equal threat the rest of the team they tend not to be overly picky. Manabolt will kill most things and toxins are a nice leveler unless one PC is immune to some.

Yeah, there isn't many reasons for a security team to use bullets, when mix of pepper punch and a neurostun gas grenades will take out the intruders no matter how much armor their wearing, unless they're wearing gas mask they will go down for the count. If you wanna make extra sure, just add a breath taker gas grenade in to the mix. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Yes, the problem is, to me, those measures are rather extreme when applied to the rest of the characters. They do not provide the same smooth damage/disabilty curve as standard firearms. And it is not like the security guards would switch to their pistols when attacking the unarmored characters. They're not going to knowingly do somthing less effective.

I feel like throwing pepper punch, neurostun, and breath taker at the PCs is a sure way to get them caught or dead. In the campaign I've been running in the past two years, which has spanned only three players but about a dozen characters, no one has taken any filtration, gas mask, chemical seal, or similar options unless I've specifically thrust it upon them. From this sample, and chatter I've seen online, I feel that these chemical protection systems are not common character options. And if the PCs do survive long enough to learn they need this stuff, than the guards are right back to using regular weapons which make the hypothetical trank (troll tank) unstoppable.

If I just add Stick'nShock it means the trank will take SOME damage. It also still has the problem of making the other PCs go down PROPORTIONALLY faster, which is even worse than the gas option (where everyone goes down and loses right away).

Of course, the fact that the trank is not even close to being a valid starting character build, requiring five availability twenty items, makes this much less of a practical concern for me. The chance that a brick type character (played straight) would survive/succeed long enough to install all that 'ware in my campaign is pretty slim. But in the realm of hypotheticals, I think that the character with 40 points of armor provides a serious game balance problem.

It is not solved by gas/toxins because they will kill (KO obviously equals kill-or-worse in a Zero Zone type environment) EVERYONE just as fast OR they will just be immune to it, with very little middle ground and no damage curve.
It is not solved by Stick'n'Shock because it will kill NON-TRANK PCs even FASTER.

Depends on campaign and players, I've been in some games where every player had some form of chemical seal or protection.

I know, but the presence of that also doesn't solve the problem because then everyone is just immune to toxins.

With toxins there is extremely little middle-ground between 'immune' and 'dead' and hence it provides a very bad damage CURVE. Unless the GM wants to go crazy with house rules and say something like "Toxin Extractors and Tracheal Filter are allowed but Chemical Seal, Gas Mask, Internal Air Tank, etc. are not". (Further sidenote: I just noticed how overpriced Toxin Extractor and especially Tracheal Filter are.)

Again, the fact that countermeasures exist doesn't make the armor-tank any less powerful in comparison to normal PCs. It's not like he's extra-vulnerable to magic (besides, he's an Astral Hazing Fomori, right?), or extra-vulnerable to toxins, or extra-vulnerable to SnS. He's equal to 'normals', plus physical-immune.

This can absolutely mess up a game, unless the GM is very careful, and puts forth significant extra effort. This is true for any hyper-powered character, and I'm certainly not saying the armor-tank build is unique in that way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yerameyahu has succinctly summed up what I was saying, with less reliance on individual examples.

You know, it occurs to me that one of the places you technically can see cyberarmor is on vehicles possessing mechanical arms.

It wouldn't be hardened, though, which I guess could cause a rules oddity. I suppose if you wanted to allow the cyberarmor it would just work normally, save that only the vehicular armor rating would be used when checking to see if the round "bounces" from the hardened armor effect.




-k

That really surprises me, since a rebreather-gas mask is an excellent way to break facial recognition software, plus it has an added benefit of being there when the runners use said gasses.

So, the next question is whether it's too cheap (in Nuyen, Essence, BP, etc.) to do this kind of cyber-armor tank. It's annoying to make the GM simply disallow things ('no, that cyber-tank would seriously imbalance the group') when you can build the trade-off right into the rules: 'no, that build would use up too much of my character resources to be attractive'.

Obviously, getting 4 (5, 6, … 12?) cyberlimbs isn't the easiest thing to do, so there *is* that trade-off already in place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Is cyber-armor too cheap? Should the GM simply enforce encumbrance on cyber-armor (although, that's what the Troll's Body is for)? Etc. I know this has been discussed a fair bit before, but since we're already here…

Seriously, Doc Chase. In a world with microscopic cameras everywhere and rampant air pollution, why *wouldn't* you wear a mask?

KarmaInferno, I'd just rule that adding an armored limb doesn't make the original vehicle any more armored. If anything, it adds a new weaker spot. You're right that it's another one of those not-really-considered rules interactions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

"Because to the breeders we all look the same anyway . . "
And for the first time in shadowrun history, cyber-limbs are VIABLE!

Because you have nothing to hide, right?

Right?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Except that it makes you stand out like a sore thumb on the way to/from the job in question, is incompatible with social infiltration/social engineering/just fucking lying-through-your-teeth-to-get-in, and you have to actually remember the step of putting it on/taking it off on the way in/out, but still, it is a pretty sweet piece of gear.

Incidentally, I am not saying cyberlimb armor is too cheap. I think the costs are FAIRLY balanced. I think the problem is that when it is achieved, it is totally balance-fucking because you have one player who is functionally immune to all firearms/melee damage and the rest who aren't.

Does it? SR 2072 is a place where color-changing mohawks, programmable tattoos and cosmetic body mods make one fit in rather than stand out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

In Mexico City Azzieland, they make varied and wonderful looking rebreathers, since the smog is so thick it's served with a side of pico de gallo. The same can quite nearly be said for any major SR city. You and I may not typically play it up, but rebreathers are more mainstream in SR than we really realize. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

One can always carry it in their duffel/purse/trenchcoat and pop it on before wandering inside, too.

It depends on what the mask looks like. And again, pollution. (Ack, ninja'd by Doc, I'm so slow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

I always assumed that the standard ('Oh shit seattle's air is toxic') civilian rebreather was much more like this whereas a full hardcore gas mask was much more like this. Of course I run campaigns where subtlety and raw effectiveness are usually inversely related, and you have to find the sweet spot on the curve.

*shrug*

YMMV.

Given the miniaturization of 2070, the Respirator may well be a thin mouth/nose cover, but the Gas Mask does specify 'full face'.

I see rebreather masks about that size, but with little filters on each end near the edge of the mouth to get rid of those icky gases. Gas mask is dead on, though.

Well actually that works perfectly with my 'subtlety vs. brute force' curve because the respirator and gas mask are very different devices.

Runners always wearing respirators is much more believable than runners always wearing this.

Depends on the runner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) They're already wearing FFBA, PPP, supergoggles, radar/all sensors, chameleon suits, and have emotitoys on their shoulders. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It would be fun to play with a team that was anything like that, but my players are really really far from the optimization/max. efficiency/crunch side of the spectrum, as it happens.

Anyway, /derail.

Could not agree more, but for some reason in the world of shadowrun they still use guns... must be some fluff reason why multi billion corps use guns if they don't work on most pros.

I agree with you just "deal with it" defense of all RAR rubs me the wrong way. I just don't see how someone who spends all of that time engeneering the most armored guy ever is going to have fun laying on his back because of a dart gun or squirt that double taps stun damage.