As per SR4A, p239, technomancers can't learn or use agents. What if my technomancer has a commlink with an agent program? Can it be loaded and run on commlinks node?

Sure. The TM can use agents, they just can't have an agent CF.

Don't see why not. In fact it can help conceal the fact that you're a TM in the first place.

B/C they have Sprites. Anymore questions?

You can use agents but its like using a BB gun when you have a sniper rifle in the sprites.

They can, no sweat. The wording is a bit poor, but this mean they cannot run an agent in their bionode, and they need to learn a duplicate set of skills to interact "normally" with the Matrix.

Investing in an extra skill group at a low level is BP/karma heavy but can be a big help in hiding your true nature, particularly if you practice shutting down your bionode.

Thanks, I expected it can be used, but not run on bionode.

why would you bother learning a new set of matrix skills? you don't need any to boss around agents.

edit:




this logic is like saying that because a magician has spells, he becomes completely incapable of pulling the trigger on a gun. or that the rigger who can drive around exceptionally well loses the ability to walk for no better reason than that he can drive. they can interact with everything else on the matrix just like a hacker can, why wouldn't they be able to issue orders to agents just like a hacker can?

Just to order agents, yes you don't need any, but if you want to be able to perform Matrix operations using programs in a comlink rather than the CF in your bionode you need them - for exemple if you're stuck in a Dissonnance Well and your TM abilities are screwed, or if you need to have some Matrix work done while hiding your Emerged status.

But I acknowledge the rather narrow range of situations where this would come into play makes the investment rather dubious beyond fluff and personnal history of the character - who could have been a decent hacker before his Emergence.

This argument is annoying and old. No, a technomancer does NOT need to learn a new set of skills. By the logic of this argument, a technomancer with their version of the hardware skill can't build, modify, repair, etc drones. And if they can't do that, then why be a dronomancer? Why have the skill at all if you can't use it?

Here's how it actually works out. Technomancers don't (necessarily) go through all the book learning on how to take apart a commlink, operate it, code software, etc that a mundane or awakened hacker would, and instead just has an intuitive feel for how things work. A TM with the hardware skill doesn't follow strict blueprints of which wire goes where to fix a drone, they just start plugging away at it, just somehow "feeling out" how to do what they need to do. A drone repaired, built, or modified by the TM will work perfectly fine, but if a mundane opens it up and looks at it, they won't be able to make heads or tails of it.

For a more real world comparison, imagine someone from a first world country meets up with a "primative" (i.e. someone who stayed native, like an aboriginal, or some amerinds still today), and they both get lost out in the woods, outback, whatever. They're both able to find their way back, but they way they do so would be different, with the native tracking their path along with the path of the sun or stars, how moss grows, etc. and the other person using a compass, map, GPS, etc. They're both accomplishing the same task, but how they go about it is completely different, and they can't explain it easily to another person who's not on their wavelength.

The difference is, these things are fairly mundane and CAN be taught, but the way a TM works machines, code, etc can't be taught to someone who can't experience the Matrix the way a TM can, though a TM CAN learn the way everyone else operates the Matrix, they just rarely do so, often finding it backwards, slower, retro, etc.

You can issue order to sprites. But why artificially limit yourself? Why walk when you can fly? Nothing an Agent does is better then what a sprite can do, and they are way cheaper to boot. Yes its true there is a school of thought that says you can just do all the hacking with Agents. But if thats is your goal you really have no place being a TM. The skill investments with TM is heavy, heavier then any other archetype I'd say. But the trade off is your get the ability to boost skills in ways no else can, (This means you can do the really impossible stuff!). No one can make the hack on the fly roll like a good TM can. You also can summon and bind sprites for investment of time alone! Now if you are so inclined you carry around a link like everyone else, and run an agent on it. In the same way a Mage can carry around a gun. But you cannot have CF of Agent, because that is why there are sprites. If you don't like sprites that's cool, but playing a technomancer without sprites is like playing a mage without spirits.

Consider this. If your finding the skill investment to heavy, why not just master sprite creation? They are generally better in cyber space then equivalent agents depending on type and purpose, and they are just a time investment.

This is actually kind of helping my train of thought about TMs needing another set of skills to do the same thing they do already. Yes, a TM with a link loaded full of agents can slave the link to his bionode and run agents through it, but as Karoline and I discussed in another thread, unless he's going VR via the link (which cuts off his access to his CF's since he's working through the link, not his bionode) he has no access to any progs on the link, including agents. The only time the TM has access to both is when running in AR.

As for the pulling a trigger thing, yes a mage can pull a trigger, watch the news enough and you can see that an infant can pull a trigger. But the infant (and probably the mage) won't be able to aim well without training and practice. So your examples are a bit oversimplified, but your point comes across. The TM does have training and/or practice in making commlinks, drones, etc do what they want, they just don't do it in the same way as anyone else. A mundane may use their glasses/goggles/contacts to blink to open their mail, or use AR gloves to move windows around in order to check the mail. A TM merely thinks about it, and the link does it. They're not hacking the link in order to access their mail (that would just be ridiculous) but they definitely don't operate it in any ways that can be taught to a non-TM.

So long story short, yes, they can issue orders to agents that are on their link, but why? They're restricted in how they can use the agents (because what TM is going to sacrifice their access to CF's, threading, sprites, echoes, etc to go into VR just to use some agents?) and what they have already (sprites) are way better. It's like the ending of the Jet Li movie The One, except only one of them is actually all that badass, and all the others are kindergarteners. Sure, you CAN mob with a ton of agents, but one sprite is SOOOOO much better.

I did not say the cannot use it. I said that they need to learn an alternative version if they want to be able to use the skill in a non-TM way. To pursue your exemple, opening his mail by using an AR interface and hand gesture on a physical comlink rather than simply thinking about it and intuitively using his bionode to translate his wishes into Matrix protocols.

?
I don't follow. What do you mean?

I wish they'd made technomancers mages using magic to play with matrix and drones and stuff.

That would have been much cooler.
Technomancer costing 5BP seems low too.

I would also like to see TechnoAdepts

If you roll [Skill + CF rating], then you use the Technomancer version of the skill - and obviously only a TM (or E-critter) can do it - but if you rol [Skill + Program Rating] then you use the "normal" version of the skill.

and this is just plain absurd.

it's the matrix. stuff is connected. get over it.

now, imagine the following scenario... the technomancer has hacked into a corporate node using his technomantic abilities. in that node is an agent. the technomancer has admin access, and attempts to use it to get the agent to do whatever he wants (perhaps turn it against a spider who is guarding the network, perhaps getting it to do a browse, etc).

now, in the way the rules actually work, the technomancer has no problem whatsoever doing this, just like the technomancer would have absolutely no problem whatsoever downloading a non-resonant file or controlling a non-resonant drone or interacting in any way with any other non-resonant icon in the matrix.

get it through your head. technomancers interact with non-resonant stuff on the matrix ALL THE TIME. it's what they do, it's what they're good at. they can't run an agent on their bionode, but they can sure as hell issue orders to an agent that is subscribed to them just like a regular hacker can. in fact, being able to interact with non-resonant icons in the matrix is one of the central abilities of the archetype, and the only restriction on their ability to do so is a lack of memory space in their bionode (a limitation which is trivial to overcome because they have an essentially infinite amount of storage space elsewhere)

just as simply pulling the trigger on a gun or walking is not a test of any sort, neither is issuing orders to an agent. you just tell the agent what to do, and it does it. absolutely no skill is required in this case to accomplish the task. hell, you don't even need a language skill, technically.

as to those trying to argue why would you give up sprites for agents, well, that's kind of a ridiculous question. it's like assuming that the rigger in my example above actually does lose the ability to walk just because he can drive. it doesn't work like that. technomancers have an *added* ability to use sprites. they don't *replace* their ability to interact with agents, they simply *add* other abilities on top of that. it isn't either/or, it's BOTH. a technomancer can use BOTH sprites AND agents, and a wise technomancer will do so whenever it is to their advantage (which is likely to be fairly often, since there are typically far better uses for a sprite than data search for example, which you likely have far better places to spend your BP/karma than to raise your data search and browse to 6, never mind the possibilities of malware and botnets).

there is no reason a technomancer cannot use BOTH at the SAME TIME without sacrificing even the tiniest amount of ability to use either one. that same technomancer who could use one awesome sprite instead of a bunch of decent agents could *also* use an awesome sprite supported by a bunch of decent agents at the same time (note that the agents are actually quite likely to be almost as good as the sprite in most ways, it's only in the special abilities that the sprite pulls ahead)

Another reason to use Agents/Pilots over sprites is that you can use more of them and they are much more effective when used in drones (pilots I mean) an average machine sprite can only get so many skills whereas you can buy all the ones you need with a pilot and copy them. No need worrying about what skill the machine spirit can use and which you have to sacrifice.

Agents also are expendable and well-suited for menial labour, things the more shamanic TMs would not use sprites for. And TMs who don't use drones have few things to spend cash on.

Where are you getting the idea that its not?



Yes and? No one has said that they can't use them. Just that you cant have a CF of them.


Ok so you suggest that all TM. Start hauling around Links with many very expensive programs upon them?



This is getting silly. You will not use something effectively in shadowrun without some sort of skill in it. Be that wires or CFs or plain old training thinking otherwise is not logical.



In most shadowrun game resources are scares. So you generally have to choose where to put them. Now i'm not saying you can't have both, but I am saying most characters probably won't have the resources to achieve that. Now maybe after a couple months of play something like that might be possible.



Again if you happen to have unlimited resources that may be true, but if your working with 400 character points and/or X amount of Karma it also may not be the case. Its true that TM don't have a lot of call on their cash, so you could make the case they can begin building up the Agent needed to do this. But the agent swarm you usually brings with it the specter of SoTA issues which TM can otherwise ignore. So i'm just saying there are finite amounts of resource, in general Spirits are out the box more effective then agents. So why spend the time head ache and giant pile of cash it takes to add agents for what you could do with more sprites, or if that is to limited a couple free sprites on the pay roll?

err... no. sprites, in general, are much more specialised than agents, and within that specialty are great. but they aren't just flat out better in every situation.

an agent is not really that expensive. it is even less expensive if you pirate them and the other software. it is even *less* expensive if you get it by taking it from your opponents. you have absolutely no need to bring a bunch of expensive hardware everywhere you go either. the entire point of a botnet, for example, is that you specifically *don't* have the hardware on you. it's riding around in someone else's hardware and when you call for it, it answers. at no point do you even need to own *any* commlink yourself (although a basic one is a good idea if only so you can pretend you're not a technomancer) in order to use agents.

and as a matter of fact, there's plenty of stuff that doesn't require any skill to use in shadowrun. like agents for example. you know, the hacker-in-a-box? the ones that you could exclusively rely on to hack if you don't mind being called a script-kiddy because they literally do not require any skill whatsoever to use? those agents? the ones described in the basic rules and which have not changed in the slightest ever since? apparently this doesn't seem to be reaching you, but agents really don't need you to have any skill whatsoever to work. you can point at a node and tell it to go find an exploit for you, and if it has the requisite software the agent will go do that without you ever having to make so much as a single skill check of any sort. a hacker can do it, a street sam can do it, a 5-year old child can do it, the mage can do it, and guess what... the technomancer can do it too.

as far as agent CFs, so far as i can tell, the only one with a fixation on agents as a CF is you. don't think anyone else has brought up the subject on this thread. plenty of people talking about using agents. not one of them said anything about threading up an agent CF or buying the CF with karma or anything of the sort. well, not one of them except marcus.

As to the the TM and normal hacking skills, Peter Taylor and Jenn Harding both stated in a Dev Chat and in a thread here in DS that the TM did have to learn the Hacking and Computer skill groups seperatly as the TM way of Hacking was more intrinsic and different than a normal hacker.

SR4A p239


Emphasis mine

And this has to do what with the topic of agents? Commanding agents and pilot programs is a simple Issue Command action, no skills or program involved.

No I was addressing the comment made earlier that the TM would need to learn the Computer/Hacking skills twice.

Sorry about the confusion. I'm a bad boy

Oh btw guess what your TM can use his sofware skill to wirte progams. He doesn't do it like we do as they have super duper TM skills some TMs use the matrix like playing music or whatever but they can still write and use any program. And a normal hacker can use TM written programs as well. THe distinction betwen TM and hacker skills are badly writen and almost meaningless. ITs basicly a training only issue. A tutor soft (teaching hacking skills) for mundanes would help a TM and vice vesa though WHY a TM would use a tutor soft when they can make tutor sprite is a diffrent story.