As per SR4A, p239, technomancers can't learn or use agents. What if my technomancer has a commlink with an agent program? Can it be loaded and run on commlinks node?

Sure. The TM can use agents, they just can't have an agent CF.

Don't see why not. In fact it can help conceal the fact that you're a TM in the first place.

B/C they have Sprites. Anymore questions?

You can use agents but its like using a BB gun when you have a sniper rifle in the sprites.

They can, no sweat. The wording is a bit poor, but this mean they cannot run an agent in their bionode, and they need to learn a duplicate set of skills to interact "normally" with the Matrix.

Investing in an extra skill group at a low level is BP/karma heavy but can be a big help in hiding your true nature, particularly if you practice shutting down your bionode.

Thanks, I expected it can be used, but not run on bionode.

why would you bother learning a new set of matrix skills? you don't need any to boss around agents.

edit:




this logic is like saying that because a magician has spells, he becomes completely incapable of pulling the trigger on a gun. or that the rigger who can drive around exceptionally well loses the ability to walk for no better reason than that he can drive. they can interact with everything else on the matrix just like a hacker can, why wouldn't they be able to issue orders to agents just like a hacker can?

Just to order agents, yes you don't need any, but if you want to be able to perform Matrix operations using programs in a comlink rather than the CF in your bionode you need them - for exemple if you're stuck in a Dissonnance Well and your TM abilities are screwed, or if you need to have some Matrix work done while hiding your Emerged status.

But I acknowledge the rather narrow range of situations where this would come into play makes the investment rather dubious beyond fluff and personnal history of the character - who could have been a decent hacker before his Emergence.

This argument is annoying and old. No, a technomancer does NOT need to learn a new set of skills. By the logic of this argument, a technomancer with their version of the hardware skill can't build, modify, repair, etc drones. And if they can't do that, then why be a dronomancer? Why have the skill at all if you can't use it?

Here's how it actually works out. Technomancers don't (necessarily) go through all the book learning on how to take apart a commlink, operate it, code software, etc that a mundane or awakened hacker would, and instead just has an intuitive feel for how things work. A TM with the hardware skill doesn't follow strict blueprints of which wire goes where to fix a drone, they just start plugging away at it, just somehow "feeling out" how to do what they need to do. A drone repaired, built, or modified by the TM will work perfectly fine, but if a mundane opens it up and looks at it, they won't be able to make heads or tails of it.

For a more real world comparison, imagine someone from a first world country meets up with a "primative" (i.e. someone who stayed native, like an aboriginal, or some amerinds still today), and they both get lost out in the woods, outback, whatever. They're both able to find their way back, but they way they do so would be different, with the native tracking their path along with the path of the sun or stars, how moss grows, etc. and the other person using a compass, map, GPS, etc. They're both accomplishing the same task, but how they go about it is completely different, and they can't explain it easily to another person who's not on their wavelength.

The difference is, these things are fairly mundane and CAN be taught, but the way a TM works machines, code, etc can't be taught to someone who can't experience the Matrix the way a TM can, though a TM CAN learn the way everyone else operates the Matrix, they just rarely do so, often finding it backwards, slower, retro, etc.

You can issue order to sprites. But why artificially limit yourself? Why walk when you can fly? Nothing an Agent does is better then what a sprite can do, and they are way cheaper to boot. Yes its true there is a school of thought that says you can just do all the hacking with Agents. But if thats is your goal you really have no place being a TM. The skill investments with TM is heavy, heavier then any other archetype I'd say. But the trade off is your get the ability to boost skills in ways no else can, (This means you can do the really impossible stuff!). No one can make the hack on the fly roll like a good TM can. You also can summon and bind sprites for investment of time alone! Now if you are so inclined you carry around a link like everyone else, and run an agent on it. In the same way a Mage can carry around a gun. But you cannot have CF of Agent, because that is why there are sprites. If you don't like sprites that's cool, but playing a technomancer without sprites is like playing a mage without spirits.

Consider this. If your finding the skill investment to heavy, why not just master sprite creation? They are generally better in cyber space then equivalent agents depending on type and purpose, and they are just a time investment.

This is actually kind of helping my train of thought about TMs needing another set of skills to do the same thing they do already. Yes, a TM with a link loaded full of agents can slave the link to his bionode and run agents through it, but as Karoline and I discussed in another thread, unless he's going VR via the link (which cuts off his access to his CF's since he's working through the link, not his bionode) he has no access to any progs on the link, including agents. The only time the TM has access to both is when running in AR.

As for the pulling a trigger thing, yes a mage can pull a trigger, watch the news enough and you can see that an infant can pull a trigger. But the infant (and probably the mage) won't be able to aim well without training and practice. So your examples are a bit oversimplified, but your point comes across. The TM does have training and/or practice in making commlinks, drones, etc do what they want, they just don't do it in the same way as anyone else. A mundane may use their glasses/goggles/contacts to blink to open their mail, or use AR gloves to move windows around in order to check the mail. A TM merely thinks about it, and the link does it. They're not hacking the link in order to access their mail (that would just be ridiculous) but they definitely don't operate it in any ways that can be taught to a non-TM.

So long story short, yes, they can issue orders to agents that are on their link, but why? They're restricted in how they can use the agents (because what TM is going to sacrifice their access to CF's, threading, sprites, echoes, etc to go into VR just to use some agents?) and what they have already (sprites) are way better. It's like the ending of the Jet Li movie The One, except only one of them is actually all that badass, and all the others are kindergarteners. Sure, you CAN mob with a ton of agents, but one sprite is SOOOOO much better.

I did not say the cannot use it. I said that they need to learn an alternative version if they want to be able to use the skill in a non-TM way. To pursue your exemple, opening his mail by using an AR interface and hand gesture on a physical comlink rather than simply thinking about it and intuitively using his bionode to translate his wishes into Matrix protocols.

?
I don't follow. What do you mean?

I wish they'd made technomancers mages using magic to play with matrix and drones and stuff.

That would have been much cooler.
Technomancer costing 5BP seems low too.

I would also like to see TechnoAdepts

If you roll [Skill + CF rating], then you use the Technomancer version of the skill - and obviously only a TM (or E-critter) can do it - but if you rol [Skill + Program Rating] then you use the "normal" version of the skill.

and this is just plain absurd.

it's the matrix. stuff is connected. get over it.

now, imagine the following scenario... the technomancer has hacked into a corporate node using his technomantic abilities. in that node is an agent. the technomancer has admin access, and attempts to use it to get the agent to do whatever he wants (perhaps turn it against a spider who is guarding the network, perhaps getting it to do a browse, etc).

now, in the way the rules actually work, the technomancer has no problem whatsoever doing this, just like the technomancer would have absolutely no problem whatsoever downloading a non-resonant file or controlling a non-resonant drone or interacting in any way with any other non-resonant icon in the matrix.

get it through your head. technomancers interact with non-resonant stuff on the matrix ALL THE TIME. it's what they do, it's what they're good at. they can't run an agent on their bionode, but they can sure as hell issue orders to an agent that is subscribed to them just like a regular hacker can. in fact, being able to interact with non-resonant icons in the matrix is one of the central abilities of the archetype, and the only restriction on their ability to do so is a lack of memory space in their bionode (a limitation which is trivial to overcome because they have an essentially infinite amount of storage space elsewhere)

just as simply pulling the trigger on a gun or walking is not a test of any sort, neither is issuing orders to an agent. you just tell the agent what to do, and it does it. absolutely no skill is required in this case to accomplish the task. hell, you don't even need a language skill, technically.

as to those trying to argue why would you give up sprites for agents, well, that's kind of a ridiculous question. it's like assuming that the rigger in my example above actually does lose the ability to walk just because he can drive. it doesn't work like that. technomancers have an *added* ability to use sprites. they don't *replace* their ability to interact with agents, they simply *add* other abilities on top of that. it isn't either/or, it's BOTH. a technomancer can use BOTH sprites AND agents, and a wise technomancer will do so whenever it is to their advantage (which is likely to be fairly often, since there are typically far better uses for a sprite than data search for example, which you likely have far better places to spend your BP/karma than to raise your data search and browse to 6, never mind the possibilities of malware and botnets).

there is no reason a technomancer cannot use BOTH at the SAME TIME without sacrificing even the tiniest amount of ability to use either one. that same technomancer who could use one awesome sprite instead of a bunch of decent agents could *also* use an awesome sprite supported by a bunch of decent agents at the same time (note that the agents are actually quite likely to be almost as good as the sprite in most ways, it's only in the special abilities that the sprite pulls ahead)

Another reason to use Agents/Pilots over sprites is that you can use more of them and they are much more effective when used in drones (pilots I mean) an average machine sprite can only get so many skills whereas you can buy all the ones you need with a pilot and copy them. No need worrying about what skill the machine spirit can use and which you have to sacrifice.

Agents also are expendable and well-suited for menial labour, things the more shamanic TMs would not use sprites for. And TMs who don't use drones have few things to spend cash on.

Where are you getting the idea that its not?



Yes and? No one has said that they can't use them. Just that you cant have a CF of them.


Ok so you suggest that all TM. Start hauling around Links with many very expensive programs upon them?



This is getting silly. You will not use something effectively in shadowrun without some sort of skill in it. Be that wires or CFs or plain old training thinking otherwise is not logical.



In most shadowrun game resources are scares. So you generally have to choose where to put them. Now i'm not saying you can't have both, but I am saying most characters probably won't have the resources to achieve that. Now maybe after a couple months of play something like that might be possible.



Again if you happen to have unlimited resources that may be true, but if your working with 400 character points and/or X amount of Karma it also may not be the case. Its true that TM don't have a lot of call on their cash, so you could make the case they can begin building up the Agent needed to do this. But the agent swarm you usually brings with it the specter of SoTA issues which TM can otherwise ignore. So i'm just saying there are finite amounts of resource, in general Spirits are out the box more effective then agents. So why spend the time head ache and giant pile of cash it takes to add agents for what you could do with more sprites, or if that is to limited a couple free sprites on the pay roll?

err... no. sprites, in general, are much more specialised than agents, and within that specialty are great. but they aren't just flat out better in every situation.

an agent is not really that expensive. it is even less expensive if you pirate them and the other software. it is even *less* expensive if you get it by taking it from your opponents. you have absolutely no need to bring a bunch of expensive hardware everywhere you go either. the entire point of a botnet, for example, is that you specifically *don't* have the hardware on you. it's riding around in someone else's hardware and when you call for it, it answers. at no point do you even need to own *any* commlink yourself (although a basic one is a good idea if only so you can pretend you're not a technomancer) in order to use agents.

and as a matter of fact, there's plenty of stuff that doesn't require any skill to use in shadowrun. like agents for example. you know, the hacker-in-a-box? the ones that you could exclusively rely on to hack if you don't mind being called a script-kiddy because they literally do not require any skill whatsoever to use? those agents? the ones described in the basic rules and which have not changed in the slightest ever since? apparently this doesn't seem to be reaching you, but agents really don't need you to have any skill whatsoever to work. you can point at a node and tell it to go find an exploit for you, and if it has the requisite software the agent will go do that without you ever having to make so much as a single skill check of any sort. a hacker can do it, a street sam can do it, a 5-year old child can do it, the mage can do it, and guess what... the technomancer can do it too.

as far as agent CFs, so far as i can tell, the only one with a fixation on agents as a CF is you. don't think anyone else has brought up the subject on this thread. plenty of people talking about using agents. not one of them said anything about threading up an agent CF or buying the CF with karma or anything of the sort. well, not one of them except marcus.

As to the the TM and normal hacking skills, Peter Taylor and Jenn Harding both stated in a Dev Chat and in a thread here in DS that the TM did have to learn the Hacking and Computer skill groups seperatly as the TM way of Hacking was more intrinsic and different than a normal hacker.

SR4A p239


Emphasis mine

And this has to do what with the topic of agents? Commanding agents and pilot programs is a simple Issue Command action, no skills or program involved.

No I was addressing the comment made earlier that the TM would need to learn the Computer/Hacking skills twice.

Sorry about the confusion. I'm a bad boy

Oh btw guess what your TM can use his sofware skill to wirte progams. He doesn't do it like we do as they have super duper TM skills some TMs use the matrix like playing music or whatever but they can still write and use any program. And a normal hacker can use TM written programs as well. THe distinction betwen TM and hacker skills are badly writen and almost meaningless. ITs basicly a training only issue. A tutor soft (teaching hacking skills) for mundanes would help a TM and vice vesa though WHY a TM would use a tutor soft when they can make tutor sprite is a diffrent story.

Those quotes don't say that at all in fact all it DOSE say is that they can learn them twice and a TM can't train a none TM and vice versa. Other wise your saying a TM can't open a maglock with out leaning a skill two times? On top of more things all it really means in TMs are special and maybe some one watching them use programs or hardware will see they are doing things strange.

Oh Really?



Just saying, I don't think we read the same thread lol.

That's how I've always viewed it. Similar to say, how Kaylee from Firefly works with machines. Functionally, both she and a traditional mechanic are going to get the same job done, it's just a question of technique. On the other hand, when it comes to teaching people how to do it, Kaylee is going to have a hard time teaching the "Just listen to the ship's voice" method.

Kaylee is a technomage

I never said they don't have to learn it to use the devices the way a normal hacker does, but there are people of the opinion that that snippet you quoted states that a TM can't even USE a commlink unless they learn that seperate set of skills, which is the ludicrous argument I was talking about. A TM can use the commlink (and without having to hack the device first), they just don't do it in the same way non-TMs do.

My point was, simply put, that yes, the TM can use commlinks without buying a second version of skills they already possess, and that yes they can use agents, but not in VR (where they will likely be doing most of their hacking) without cutting off their access to everything that makes them unique from a mundane hacker. Sure, you can have an agent doing your data searches while in AR, but every stream gets the data sprite, and most (if not all) also get courier/code/sleuth, so no need for the agent. In matrix combat, an agent can't stand up to fault/paladin/tank sprite (which 3/4 of the streams get, so maybe that 1/4 will want a combat agent until they get combat sprites via submersion). No agent can compete with a crack sprite, and courier sprites can get exploit and start with stealth already, so the one stream that doesn't get crack sprites can still hack with a sprite better than an agent. In fact, fault sprites already start with stealth and can get exploit as well, AND they're the core combat sprite with the best combat power, so there's a very versatile sprite. Want to command a drone? Machine sprites are way up there, but tutor sprites are a close second, and if you don't get those, well both sleuth and courier sprites get access to command.

The list goes on and on, simple fact of the matter is that sprites are better than agents in every way. Sure, an agent has access to every program on your link if you let it, but it has to take time loading and unloading those progs so as to not overload your link, and those progs (and the agent itself) limit the amount of progs you yourself can use. A TM can use all their CF's at once if they wanted, and so can sprites. So if the TM has a resonance of about 4 or higher (i.e. most that you start with), they have little reason to WANT to use an agent. You can't be in AR, order the agent to come on into the node after you hack it to back you up, then go VR via the bionode and use your CF's, and you can't hack into the node via your bionode then run the agent prog from your link. Agents, while useful, are so limited in use to a TM, and so inferior to sprites, that they have little reason to use them for the most mundane of tasks, like doing a data search when the TM is too lazy to spend the 1-2 seconds to compile a sprite to do it for them while they watch a trid show and drink soy-kaf.

you absolutely can use an agent in VR as a technomancer. obviously, it won't be running in the same mode as normal (ie it won't be running off of your persona and using your AID etc), but you can load an agent onto a node and just give it orders (whether you're in AR, VR, or using a 20-year-old console to type in the instructions and email them to your agent) and the agent will do what it's told.

also, i think you overestimate sprites and underestimate agents. yes, sprite powers are really good. but you can only have so many sprites at any one time, and those sprites can only have the CFs you specifically chose for them based on their rating. agents are very useful, because sometimes you don't need to send in a tank to do something, it's better to send in a small squad of infantry. likewise, i don't want to be wasting the services i worked to get out of a rating 6 or 9 sprite on trivial tasks. gathering information, hacking simple devices while your attention is elsewhere, sniffing out wireless traffic, spoofing lifestyle, etc. and even more potentially powerful is that you can have multiple agents spread across many devices all supporting you. if you need it, you can direct a small army of agents to find you exploits into a target node. you can have a dozen agents show up to defend a critical matrix location. you can do all kinds of things with agents, not all of them worth using a full-fledged sprite, and in many cases unless you actually were planning on using a sprite power the agent will do an excellent job of it. sprite powers are nice, it's true... but they are not often required for success, and in the many instances that they are not needed, well... you can just have an agent do the job, and you don't have to get punched in the face to get services out of an agent. that in itself can be pretty handy.

Long Term registering removes this problem completely from sprites. Agents must be ordered in the same way sprites have to be but with the catch that you better be more specific with agents. Agents are not super smart, they can and will follow instruction and the same sort of flow charts drones will, but they are not sapient in the way sprites are. This counts when you start messing around in things like combat. Agents following a script is like any scripted virtual opponent, it leaves them vulnerable to exploitation, once you figure out what they will do it's easy to beat them. Sprites are individuals and will act in accordance to their rating. But at rating 9 that can be very sophisticated. Hand in hand with this, Sprites have Edge this counts a lot when the chips are down.



You start marching around the Matrix with an army of agents like that and your opposition will certainly do the same. Unwired specifically discusses the problems with using so many agents. Keep in mind anytime one of these agents get dropped it can be traced straight back to you. This runs into the old Public library hacking strategy, it's horrible and losing game to play. When you launch the resource wars against the GM in end you will always lose, cause the GM has unlimited resources.

There's nothing wrong with a couple agents doing the matrix equivalent of chopping wood and carrying water or possibly even watching you back, I could even see a TM who would think this a good idea. But at the point where you decide to send in a Squad of infantry you have moved well past their intended purpose in the vast majority Shadowruns. If your playing the all decker game, and you decide to botnet up and launch your Zombie Agent Army to take control of that piece of the matrix I might could see it. But as it is relevant to the game in general not so much.

Ummm, sprites really are for trivial tasks, or for backing up the TM on stuff that's not trivial and needs a personal touch. Need a data search? Compile a fresh rating 4-6 data sprite and have it find the data for you. Or use a code sprite with information sortilage. Finding an exploit into a target node? Compile a crack sprite, or better yet, do it yourself with the crack sprite aiding either your stealth or exploit CF, effectively doubling it. Hacking simple devices? Again, a crack sprite (or any sprite with exploit). Sniffing out wireless traffic? Courier and sleuth sprites. Spoofing lifestyle? Seriously? You're going to leave a task THAT important to an unthinking program that follows certain protocols, and not something that can think on the fly, or do it yourself? And as has been said, a small squad of limited intelligence is easier to track back to you than a single powerful and intelligent soldier.

"Not worth using a full fledged sprite" is..... I don't know where to begin with that. A TM can compile a lower rating sprite on the fly if they want for such "menial tasks" and the sprite will still outthink any agent. And as has also been stated, at higher ratings, a sprite can compete with a living hacker or rigger. A rating 12 machine or tutor sprite has all 4 of the core "skills/autosofts" for rigging, and hs well in the obscene pool for it. If you don't need all 4, well then ratings 6 or 9 will do. A rating 7 or 8 crack sprite will keep even the best mundane hacker or spider on his virtual toes. A rating 6 fault/paladin/tank sprite is going to destroy any agent in combat, and likely any squad as well (try touching a rating 6 paladin sprite). So it looks more like you underestimate sprites at the same time you state that agents are only fit for the tasks that are beneath using a sprite task. Why use a registered sprite (and use up those hard earned tasks) for something so small when a compiled one will work?

Also, seeing as how TMs need high charisma for their biofeedback filter, they tend to have high charisma and thus are able to have more registered sprites. Most (that aren't orks or trolls) will in short order have one of every type they can compile registered, and then compile new ones when they need something menial or with different CF's.

A TM can't communicate with other matrix icons unless he stops being a TM?

I think what they were trying to say was that to use an agent, you have to run it through a comlink, and thus are now in VR via mundane means, which removes your special TM powers from play until you log on through your bionode again.
But strictly speaking, I don't think think that is completely accurate. agents have to be run on comlinks, not the bionode, and there is no agent CF. but with device slaving and such, I don't think you really need to be in VR through the comlink when the agent is running on it.

why not just access your commlink from your bionode?

Exactly what I was proposing with my slaving remark. I simply think that sengir and jaid were missing that possibility.

That was a rethoric question
Of course TMs can interact with non-resonant icons, which also means they pass orders to an agent.

I picked up on the rhetoric/sarcasm. but you can never count on text conveying that accurately to all parties involved.

you must have the wrong person. i have stated several times that the only limitation on a TM is the inability to run an agent from their bionode, and that they could issue orders to it regardless of it's location in the matrix.

edit: the following is not directed towards pat. /edit

as far as using sprites for trivial tasks, well, you STILL have to earn those services. i find it absurd that you think it's reasonable to just compile a rating 12 sprite on the fly. you can have only one sprite compiled, and you should be compiling that one sprite well in advance so you have time to remove the fading with medical treatment whenever possible (particularly when it's a rating 12 sprite, which can cause extremely unpleasant levels of fading even when you're 'only' compiling instead of registering). you should then be saving those services for stuff that you actually *need* a rating 12 sprite for, and you should definitely not trade it in for a rating 3-4 sprite to handle the menial tasks when you can just as easily handle those menial tasks with an agent that does not cause any fading and which has unlimited services available to it.

i further find it absurd that calling on a bunch of agents to *defend* a location is going to attract attention to you, or how using them to find an exploit (note: you can find an exploit without EVER being detected, simply because the opponent never gets a chance to even try until you log in if you do an extended probe) would be a problem. i find it PARTICULARLY absurd that the assumption is a rating 12 sprite kicking in the door somehow won't draw any attention at all, particularly when we know for a fact that there are corporations (and other groups) that would and indeed do kill to get their hands on TMs of that skill level. i never said anything about having a huge army of agents with you all the time, i said have them available so that in the event you do need something that a bunch of agents can do, you can do it. and moreover, you can do it without taking any fading at all, or even risking fading, and you can do it without worrying that you'll run out of services. why the hell would i compile a rating 4 sprite to scan for nearby nodes when that uses up services, takes up my compiled sprite slot, and has a chance at causing fading when there isn't even a sprite ability that would do the job better than a basic rating 4 agent?

it would be like insisting on using only solid gold bullets for your gun. sure, it would work (well, obviously the gunpowder wouldn't be gold), but why would you insist on using solid gold bullets when regular bullets are cheaper, easier to get, less likely to get you noticed, and offer the same level of utility? now, you might want to use solid gold bullets if you're facing some sort of paracritter with a vulnerability to gold, but you would do your best to save those gold bullets for when you actually need them i would think. same with your sprites. before using a sprite, first consider if the job needs to be done by a sprite, or if it could be done by an agent (or even a pair of agents). if an agent could handle it, then don't waste your sprite services.

You're assuming the TM has a rating 12 compiled but not registered sprite on standby at all times. And fading only becomes a big issue when you start getting to impressively high levels of resonance (like double digits). And why compile a rating 12 sprite on the fly when a rating 5 or 6 will do? Heck, why assume the need for a sprite at all? By the time you're compiling rating 12 sprites with ease, you've probably got at least 6 echoes (unless you're digging into that kind of rating while it's still physical fading), and so probably have one of the many multitasking echoes like macro, multiprocessing, etc. Or one of the information ones like sift, information sortilage, etc. Or hell, have 2 ranks of swap and thread the CF yourself. Only have browse 4 but resonance 12? No problem, thread it up and let it fly.

Are you familiar with the rules for Linking/Long term Registration? (154 Unwired) Who said anything about compiling a rating 12 sprite on the fly? If you compile something well in advance you should obviously register it doing other wise is a waste. However calling up a force 4 sprite on the fly to handle grunt work is very doable.



Again if you read my post you will see i specifically referenced marching around the matrix, not defending your node, as you were the one suggesting using a "squad of infantry" to attack. Depending on the type of sprite a rating 12 cracking sprite would almost certainly avoid making any noise, and do it far more rapidly as it has a rating of 12. That makes it smarter then any normal human can be. So anything a hacker can come up with it certainly come up with. As to your question, The rating 4 sprite is still smarter then a rating 4 agent, luckier then the rating 4 agent, and just generally more fun, also there is really no risk for in summoning a rating 4 sprite if you are built correctly, and it only takes a complex action to compile it.



Does it matter if the cat is white or black? As long as the cat catches the mouse it is a good cat. Agents are fine tools, but they will never be more versatile or specialized as a sprite. Sprites are general just a measure of time, and maybe some stun damage. Why you are so opposed to this seems illogical to me. But its no skin of my back ether way.

ok, this is the last time i'm going to bother reading or responding to your posts marcus. i'm finding it increasingly difficult to treat you with anything resembling respect, and if i continue discussing anything with you, it isn't likely to be something polite.

so, first off, long term binding. i'm not convinced you actually understand how it works. you choose ONE task, in advance, for the sprite to do for 256 days. for example, "attack anyone who enters this node without my permission" or "sustain this threaded complex form for me". it does NOT allow you to tell the sprite to do whatever you tell it to for the next 256 days, so long-term binding is not something that is remotely useful for situations that come up out of the blue. it also costs karma, but that's beside the point, because the point is that it doesn't work like that anyways. as far as a rating 4 sprite, well, it can deal up to 8 fading damage, on average will deal 2 or 4, and in no case is it as good as taking ZERO fading damage to perform a basic task in the matrix. and it further means that you aren't going to be keeping a decently rated sprite ready for any actual emergencies that come up, or that you have just expended one of your compiled services for that decently rated sprite which could have been used for something meaninful.

furthermore, if you had actually read my post instead of making up words that you would like me to have said, you will see that i never suggested using agents as your personal army. i merely pointed out that sometimes you use different 'tools' for different things, and used an analogy of how the military uses tanks for some jobs, and infantry for others, and would never use tanks to do something that infantry is best suited for if they can help it. your rating 12 sprite will on average give you 8 fading (roughly equivalent to being shot with a shotgun) with as much as 24 fading being possible, something you're not going to want to risk out of the blue (more damage than an assault cannon). it furthermore will leave your resonance signature all over the place, which will draw attention from the people who you should be worried about. and i'm not convinced you entirely grasp that there is not in any way zero risk from compiling a rating 4 sprite. assuming you somehow have a dicepool of 16, you may trade that in for 4 hits... *if* the GM approves based on the dicepool being absurdly large (which 16 dice is not) and sufficiently non-stressful (which fading resistance is not likely to be considered non-stressful). and it STILL takes up your possibility of having a sprite held in reserve for important tasks, like having a slightly more risky sprite compiled for combat purposes that you would not risk registering because even a rating 6 sprite can cause a lot of pain.

and it doesn't matter if the agent is more versatile or in any way superior to the sprite. all you have to ask is "will this get the job done". if the answer is yes, then it doesn't matter how much better something is. it really doesn't matter in the slightest. unless the sprite somehow does something above and beyond what the agent does with a success, i don't care. the file is either decrypted, or it is not. the legwork either returns data, or it does not (note: legwork is one of those tasks that using a bunch of agents for won't get you into trouble for, and it's trivial to have multiple agents doing multiple seaches). i don't care if the sprite is smarter, or luckier, unless that actually has an impact on my chances of success. if you're using a sprite power, then obviously use a sprite. if you're just doing a basic skill + program check, why waste tasks? why take any risk of fading for that when you can easily do it and guarantee that you won't take any fading? a rating 12 sprite is something you should only be bringing to bear on extremely important targets, and in such cases, i suppose it wouldn't be reasonable to use an agent. but i can't recall ever saying you should rely on agents for important things, i said that you should use them to do things that are low risk.

simply put, not getting the equivalent of being punched in the head by an angry cybered troll is a good thing. taking even a small chance that you will get the equivalent of a gang of angry cybered trolls is something you should only do if it is very important. perhaps this is something difficult for you to grasp, but risking large amounts of fading in the middle of a run is not something you should consider to be risk-free, and i can't grasp how you could possibly think it would be.

and now, i am done with answering you. i'm not convinced you're actually paying any attention to what i'm saying. in point of fact, i'm really just putting this down here so that if others come, they won't be fooled into thinking i agree with you. i'm not convinced you actually even understand the rules at all, really.

in the (imo unlikely) event that you actually come up with something worth responding to, someone else will have to do it, because i'm done with wasting my time.

Why would the TM only register lower end sprites? Because there's less risk? As I see it, any TM will have registered sprites at their resonance rating (the maximum rating while still only taking stun) unless they've gained resonance and not gotten around to using up the old sprite and replacing it with a higher rating one. And as I pointed out, most TM's will have 4 or 5 charisma from creation due to that also being their biofeedback filter, so they can register a lot of sprites, one (or almost one) for every type they can compile. Will they do it during the run? No, as you pointed out, why risk the Fading if it's not necessary, but they can do it before the run or after, it doesn't take long to heal stun damage, an hour per test. So yes, a 6 resonance TM WOULD have a registered rating 6 combat sprite after a few runs (probably before or after their first run, in all honesty), in addition to having their chosen info search (data/courier/code/sleuth) sprite, their hacking sprite, etc etc. So in the pre-run mission planning/information gathering phase, a TM could use their registered info search sprite (two if they've got both registered), plus compile one, plus do the data searching themselves..... that's 4 highly intelligent information gathering sources, potentially with powers specifically for finding that information.

And there's one power you neglect that all sprites have that no agent has.....access to the resonance realms. All forms of data have been deleted from the internet? So? The data sprite can go check the archive. The ideas are limitless. Yes, a TM can use agents, and yes, some might take your route of thinking and decide to do so, but most won't. Why use an inferior tool when a better one is at your fingertips?

The more the merrier? Agents can cover all you teams links at once meaning your more powerful sprites can remain on call or doing more important tasks. One cna only have so many sprites one could have limitless(or at least loads more) worms and agents.

*sigh* i'm going to try one more time.

here we go again:

whatever sprite resources you have as a technomancer, you can either spend those sprite resources on piddling little stupid grunt work, or you can use the nigh-unlimited resources of easily available agents, which you should have tons of money to afford because you don't need to spend money on anything else and hell, if you wanted you could even just use open source stuff that literally costs nothing.

so let's see here: spend valuable sprite tasks (either use up registered tasks, which regardless of the sprite rating can likely be used for something much better than doing a simple matrix search on the various companies supposedly involved in your shadowrun, or use up compiled sprite tasks which you should likely have either compiled a larger-than-ordinary sprite earlier when you had time to rest or will have to take the risk of getting damaged in the middle of the run) one after the other, or you can just send a few basic commands to a bunch of agents you're running off of other people's commlinks while STILL retaining the option to use all of the other resources available to you.

the simple fact is that you can easily have a nigh-unlimited resource when it comes to low-level hacking which can cost you essentially nothing. now, you don't HAVE to use that resource, but the simple fact is that it doesn't even have to cost you anything to use agents. it can literally be completely 100% free. and it's not like having access to those agents prevents you from still having access to all of your sprite abilities either... if something comes up where you need a sprite, by all means use a sprite. but if you're just looking for a basic data search, something to watch over your buddy's commlink, something to start finding an exploit in half a dozen targets that *may* prove useful in the upcoming run (perhaps a vehicle, perhaps nearby traffic cameras, perhaps every single device in the area - remember, no rolls to detect the exploiting agent until it logs in when it's doing an extended probe), or whatever. now certainly, if you're going to have to hack on the fly to get into the main security server of the knight errant facility you're breaking into, then yeah... go with the high rating crack sprite. but in the meanwhile, use the agents to deal with all the mundane tasks that might come in handy but which aren't worth you spending the time or the sprite services on.

see, a hacker with an agent can just send the agent to go find exploits for random vehicles. it's no skin off the hacker's back if the agent was otherwise unoccupied, because the agent doesn't cost him anything to make it do stuff. the same is true of a technomancer with an agent. the same is *not* true of a technomancer with a sprite.

Jaid, dude I don't think your were polite from your first posts in this thread which happens to be why I responded. I just wanted to see where you would go. It's really just an amusing ride to me. Honestly I couldn't careless about hacking TM or otherwise, but your methods of communication are unclear and abrasive. But onto the post.



Ok if you think you can't come up with a general wording for a task, Something along the lines of Guard me, Such is life. It could deal up to 8 fading if you were amazingly unlucky or just generally suck at compiling, but most likely it will deal none. Now on to your secound part, if your not spending all your time writing software cause you crack the security on it, (Which are tests with Month long intervals btw) you could be using those hours to register decent rating sprites in the 6-8 force range is very doable, given that you are a TM you will have a good Cha, so you should be able to have several on hand to deal with those problem you run across. Freeing up your on the fly for summoning the 4-6 range incidentals you need for the more trival task that I have previously agree would be reasonable thing to use an agent for. I'm glade you do finally agree that the sprite would in fact be superior.




Look i have quoted and I'm 90% sure I could go back and support using your words everything I have talked about. Honestly you must have the worst die luck in history if you think "there is not in any way zero risk from compiling a rating 4 sprite. assuming you somehow have a dicepool of 16," if you can't generate 4 hits in a system with a 1 in 3 probability with 16 dice that really just unfortunate. Me? I'd bet on those odds every time. Now it is true that its not a ZERO chance of taking some stun damage, but that chance is so low it laughable. Buying hits is fail imo, why? because I like my games with chance. I wouldn't buy hits if my die pool was 30, its true that you can just sometimes roll all ones on a giant handful of dice, and those moments are actually really awesome just cause they are so unlikely. Its not hard to build a character to compile, it even completely viable to do so, and with the correct Echoes you can be a machine at doing it. It certainly possible to reach a point where summoning up a rating 6 is negligible, anyone who's played a mage as long as i have in SR would find doing this math to be totally trivial, all the same tricks exist in TM, so it just a quick hop skip and a jump. Does it take some in play time to do it? yes, but its really straight forward.



Legwork is really one of the keys to success in SR, getting all the information your gm will let you get form computer tests really requires a level of sophistication, its one of those situation where the difference between "Get me all the information on this guy" (Something you could send an agent to try and do) vs given this sequence of events with there people get all relevant data (Something you could tell a sprite to do) really matters. Your agent could probably find out about that guy no problem, who he worked for perhaps what he had for breakfast yesterday. But it couldn't tell you there was a seemingly unrelated shooting one block from his cab on his normal path to work, that was actually the distraction that was used to slow him down so they could possess him; like a good sprite could. (Yeah that actually happened in one of our games, oddly enough).

You seem totally to opposed to taking any kind risk in the fading department. Honestly i don't understand why, It is not hard to know when you can take a big chance and when you can't. I can only think the games you play in must never have any kind of serious downtime. Given 3 edge and anything like double the rating pool and I'll take my chance on compiling/summoning in a heart beat. If its only gonna be stun its really even less relevant. If you want never take a chance I'd say maybe decking is perfect for you. But if its a sure thing where is the fun in that? Why play a game if really all your doing is just telling a story of how it happened?



Honestly it doesn't bother me ether way. If you must be rude to someone it might as well be me. I do think we have made some progress in our posts here. Socialization occurs slowly over time, and is often best learned by human interaction. Even a level as basic as this. I personally enjoyed our talks. I am hopeful given further threads we will someday get you to capitalize the first letter in a sentence.

Peace.