True true. The Matrix is mother the matrix is father. But Mommy and Daddy make you work for it.

True but it's an almost ingnorable cost for one or two knowsofts at rating 1

I'm not sure what you mean. KnowSofts are only available if the information is available, and higher-rating information is rarer. I guess you're saying that they could buy everything at 1, and 'magically' add information to it with their Technomancer powers, but a GM wouldn't allow that. It's not the same as making an Armor program run better, after all.

Don't the rules specifically say that TM's can't thread Know/Active softs?

No try that the other way round.

Mecanicaly it is. Wy you thread better you pull better code from around the martix/resonance all you do with knowsofts is pull them from around the matrix/resonance .

I'm not talking about the RAW; obviously, many crazy things are legal. I'm saying that a GM shouldn't let secret information appear from nowhere because the guy 'optimizes' the rating 1 Knowsoft. It doesn't make sense, unless we're handwaving that the Resonance goes and (again, 'magically') pulls the information from everywhere for you. Given that there's an Echo more or less for that, it seems incorrect.

That's a possible fluff, but not one that makes any sense. CFs aren't made of normal code, after all. And it is simply fluff. *shrug* Again, I'm not saying RAW doesn't allow it. I'm saying a GM shouldn't. There are many things in the RAW that don't make sense, after all. Free knowledge skills hardly matters, but since you mentioned it… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ah kinda
They have to have the active/knowsoft and then they can use threading to 'convert it' into a Complex Form that they can temporarily sustain, or pay karma for to memorize.

That's different than being able to thread it out of whole cloth all the way to rating 12 (for example)

With the correct Echo, they can Emulate an existing piece of Activesoft/Knowsolft/Linguasoft subject to
a some Limitations, further they can choose to Purchase said Emulation as a CF. However the point is
That software exists somewhere in the Matrix. So theoretically you can go find it. Subject to the rule
easier said then done.

Nah TMs are uber dataminers they'll find it or there spirtes will.

Right, but they should be required to *actually* go find it, or make a Sprite do it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Most stuff I generally agree. But its alway the edge cases you use to make a point. So we know people use Skillwires to prevent there labor force from developing the skill they need to do their jobs (Thus making them dependent upon there Corp). This logic could be made to apply to other things. If there is information so sensitive that they can't risk someone actually knowing it they might very well stick it in a skillwire. Just imagen how crazy hard that piece of software could be to hack up.

DIMAP coding makes the skillwire expert system a waste and fixes your problem entirely.

Welcome to 20 posts ago, sabs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Although, the Expert *is* cheaper if you're buying your 'softs legal.

CF's don't suffer from degradation.
Why would you bother?

That assumes you're buying them all with Karma. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Also, CF-ing DIMAP costs Karma as well.

I'm only pointing out the differences. It's not like I care either way.

it's true
Getting a new skill from rating 0 to rating 5 = 32 Karma
Getting a CF with all those optimizations to the same effective rating would cost you 46 karma.

So it's not exactly a win, you're better off just learning the skill.

Course, you could /buy/ the skill all legal like, so it automatically stays updated and you CF it when you need it.

sabs,

I think your math might be a bit off.
For your CF cost, are you including the submrsion costs? If you're not the cost for a skillsoft 5 (with personalized and DIMAP) to CF conversion would be 7 karma. THis will get you 8 dice + attribute and the ability to reroll failures.

You really can't include the karma cost of the submersion as that is something the TM would likely be doing anyway, and as you add skills to the CF library the submersion cost should be divided between the number of skills you acquire thus reducing the cost per skill ratio (again assuming the sumbersion cost is included).

-D

No I'm not including the karma cost for submersions.

Look at the costs of CF in karma expenditures.

new CF 2 karma
raising CF by 1 Rating Karma

Skillsoft rating is 4
Personalized, DIMAP, codeplus 3 is 5 additional optimizations
so that gives us a rating of 9 for CF costs.
Rating 1 = 2
Rating 2= 2
Rating 3 = 3
Rating 4 = 4
Rating 5 = 5
Rating 6 = 6
Rating 7 = 7
Rating 8 = 8
Rating 9 = 9

Full cost of CF = 46

Unwired page 149
To learn a Skillwire you have been emulating you pay its rating in karma +1 for each program option.
So Rating 4 skill soft = 4 +1 for DIMAP = 5.
Any questions?

Personalize +1
DIMAP +1
CODEPLUS + 3

are you really that dense?

lol generally. I'm really trying to understand what your saying bro. But there's clearly a failure in transmission I can see what you would want Personalized as option for another +1, I doubt if i'd let that one got as a GM, but clearly its within the rules. I can't even find Codeplus, if you mean Pluscode,well "the maximum rating Limit" I assume it referring to the number of Skillsoft it can run at once, which is irrelevant given that you can run unlimited CFs. As to the rest of your math its a mystery to me. 149 is clear, and i don't see anyway to translate a rating 4 into 46. Given that the cost list to learn an emulated Skillsoft is it's rating in karma +1 for each option or +1 per option rating. So unless you got a page reference that proves otherwise I can only assume some issue beyond my understand are at work here.

It's +1 for each option or option rating
You start with 4 for the Knowsoft Rating
You add +1 for Personalize making it 5
You add +1 for DIMAP
You ad +3 for PlusCODE 3

That gets you to 9

TM Cannot run as many CF as they like when it comes to biowires.



that means that at submersiong rade 5 it works like skillwires 5.
Rating * 2 total points
Rating is the max rating a program can have.

The plus code lets you have a rating 4 activesoft only cost you 1 point.
So you can run 10 Activesofts, instead of 2

It's an interesting point on the limit. 9 I can see, I just can't see 46. However I don't think i'd pay 3 more karma when i could just switch out which one was active at any given time, especially given that submersion rating is gonna keep going up.

Page 270 of the SR4A the Character Improvement Table
Improvement:Karma Cost
New Complex Form: 2
Improving a Complex form by 1: New Rating

You don't pay 4 Karma for the Dodge 4 CF
You pay 11

If that Dodge CF has Personalize, DIMAP, and PlusCode 3.
You don't pay 9, you pay 46


That is btw, and interesting point:
Skillwire systems are limited to rating 5.
Would you let biowires go up to 12?