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Sixgun_Sage
I'm a big fan of technomancers, they start off relatively limited but sink some karma in them and they become digital gods, they are also decent second tier combatants when done right (I'm looking at you Accel echo), but I have a question about the biowire echo. Namely it specifies it mimicing the skillwire system, however in Augmentation the expert skillwire specifis it's greater integration in the system as te reason for allowing edge to reroll failure. If this is so shouldn't Biowire as an organic adaptation gain the same benefit (at least)to the system of the technomancer, an individual with a natural affinity for electronic information manipulation and processing. Has this been addressed somewhere I am unaware of such as in 4A or a piece of errata?
Aaron
The name "expert system" suggests that there's not merely integration going on, but a system that augments the normal skillwires beyond merely the integration. Technomancers wouldn't have the additional electronics, and wouldn't have any way to properly mimic it anyway.
Sixgun_Sage
QUOTE (Aaron @ Sep 29 2010, 05:23 PM) *
The name "expert system" suggests that there's not merely integration going on, but a system that augments the normal skillwires beyond merely the integration. Technomancers wouldn't have the additional electronics, and wouldn't have any way to properly mimic it anyway.



Except the only justification they offer for the expert system's function is the enhanced integration leading to improved transmission, one could easilly make a case fo Technomancers getting an even better functional increase from a skillwire CF since it is functionally part of them in a way a skillwire expert system cannot mimic.
Dumori
If it really irks you let then have an echo for it or include it in the echo.
Sixgun_Sage
Eh, it isn't a huge issue for me, it just seems like an odd distinction to go "this system allows people to use skillwires even better then the people that can copy a skillwire directly to their brain."
Marcus
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Sep 29 2010, 06:23 PM) *
Except the only justification they offer for the expert system's function is the enhanced integration leading to improved transmission, one could easilly make a case fo Technomancers getting an even better functional increase from a skillwire CF since it is functionally part of them in a way a skillwire expert system cannot mimic.


I think its a reasonable house rule to give it. Its clearly not part of the stated ability, but I can see how you reach that conclusion. Echo and deep Echo still have bugs (lol) to be worked out imo.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Sep 29 2010, 06:20 PM) *
Eh, it isn't a huge issue for me, it just seems like an odd distinction to go "this system allows people to use skillwires even better then the people that can copy a skillwire directly to their brain."


Without the little drawback of actually NEEDING wires to run that downloaded software.... sometimes there are tradeoffs, and not everything is equal...

The fact that a Technomancer does not need anything but an Emulated CF to use any skill in the book is extremely powerful... Why complain that you do not get the benefits of the Skillwire expert system to boot? wobble.gif
Marcus
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 29 2010, 07:30 PM) *
Without the little drawback of actually NEEDING wires to run that downloaded software.... sometimes there are tradeoffs, and not everything is equal...

The fact that a Technomancer does not need anything but an Emulated CF to use any skill in the book is extremely powerful... Why complain that you do not get the benefits of the Skillwire expert system to boot? wobble.gif


Your asking why gamers are sad when we can't have our cake and eat it too? lol
Sixgun_Sage
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 29 2010, 07:30 PM) *
Without the little drawback of actually NEEDING wires to run that downloaded software.... sometimes there are tradeoffs, and not everything is equal...

The fact that a Technomancer does not need anything but an Emulated CF to use any skill in the book is extremely powerful... Why complain that you do not get the benefits of the Skillwire expert system to boot? wobble.gif



Not so much a complaint as an observation but I will point out a skillwire sammy does not have to pay 2 karma for every skillchip he gets. when you factor that into the already exacting karma costs of improving a TM...

Not that I don't think the TM gets a nice benefit from biowire, I just don't think having it be less efficient than skillwire expert system makes much sense.
Aaron
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Sep 29 2010, 06:23 PM) *
Except the only justification they offer for the expert system's function is the enhanced integration leading to improved transmission, one could easilly make a case fo Technomancers getting an even better functional increase from a skillwire CF since it is functionally part of them in a way a skillwire expert system cannot mimic.

If that's the case, then it's hardware doing the enhancing. Technomancers seem to have the ability to interpret and generate RF signals, but they don't seem to have the ability to grow hardware out of their floppy biological bits.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Sep 29 2010, 05:50 PM) *
Not so much a complaint as an observation but I will point out a skillwire sammy does not have to pay 2 karma for every skillchip he gets. when you factor that into the already exacting karma costs of improving a TM...

Not that I don't think the TM gets a nice benefit from biowire, I just don't think having it be less efficient than skillwire expert system makes much sense.


But I would disagree that it is less effecient than a Skilwire expert system.... you are taking a Skillsoft and emulating it WITHOUT THE NEED OF ANY MECHANICAL INTERFACE WHATSOEVER (which no one else can even attempt, let alone succeed at))... and you do not have to pay 2 Karma to have the skillsoft... You can emulate it and NEVER purchase it as a CF... I would argue that buying it as a CF keeps you from having to emulate it, and then it acts, for all intents and purposes as a True Skill (Far less Karma Expenditure involved there if you look at the figures)...
Sixgun_Sage
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 29 2010, 07:55 PM) *
But I would disagree that it is less effecient than a Skilwire expert system.... you are taking a Skillsoft and emulating it WITHOUT THE NEED OF ANY MECHANICAL INTERFACE WHATSOEVER (which no one else can even attempt, let alone succeed at))... and you do not have to pay 2 Karma to have the skillsoft... You can emulate it and NEVER purchase it as a CF... I would argue that buying it as a CF keeps you from having to emulate it, and then it acts, for all intents and purposes as a True Skill (Far less Karma Expenditure involved there if you look at the figures)...


Oh, I won't argue the cost of actually buying a skill against the cost of biowire and learning the CF version, honestly I consider skillwires a bad idea and try to limit their use in my games, but when you look at the experience cost of submersion or learning the echo on it's own plus the karma expense of learning the CF... I won't argue you don't have to learn the Skillwire as a CF, you could emulate it and suffer the sustaining penalty.

I guess my point is the inclusion of the expert system and having biowire inferior to it seems to be somewhat arbitrary. Yes you don't have to spend cash and karma for the systems if you have biowire, but you do have to spend a significant amount of karma. was hoping for a reason other than "game balance" when I do in fact find even that justification suspect.
Marcus
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 29 2010, 07:55 PM) *
But I would disagree that it is less effecient than a Skilwire expert system.... you are taking a Skillsoft and emulating it WITHOUT THE NEED OF ANY MECHANICAL INTERFACE WHATSOEVER (which no one else can even attempt, let alone succeed at))... and you do not have to pay 2 Karma to have the skillsoft... You can emulate it and NEVER purchase it as a CF... I would argue that buying it as a CF keeps you from having to emulate it, and then it acts, for all intents and purposes as a True Skill (Far less Karma Expenditure involved there if you look at the figures)...



mmmm. Given that the mechanics you need can be totally internal I'm not so sure I'd give you the first point. But your completely correct on the 2nd part. However echos aren't cheap in and of themselves, and anything that draws Karma away from getting more of them, is certainly slowing things down.
If you read the section on it you can indeed buy it as a CF, and even cooler sense really what your doing is Copying over the actual program you can put the cool program option on it. Which is nice all be it a little more expensive but all good.
Yerameyahu
It's simple. Biowires duplicates basic Skillwires. You want additional emulation, use additional Echoes. The fluff doesn't matter. smile.gif

Alternatively, you can house-rule that the Biowires *are* the best kind of skillwires (Expert, etc.). I wouldn't argue that it's a travesty that they're not… nor even a writer error. wink.gif

I agree that Technomancers should, at least in theory, be able to emulate almost any personal electronics/'wires'. They're the electro-Bene-Gesserit. It just shouldn't be *easy*.
DMiller
The TM could also use the DIMAP program option when he emulates the skill. This would also allow the use of Edge, as a trade off the skill would be more expensive to buy with karma as a CF, but hey, still cheaper than learning a skill at rating 4.

-D
Sixgun_Sage
QUOTE (DMiller @ Sep 29 2010, 10:18 PM) *
The TM could also use the DIMAP program option when he emulates the skill. This would also allow the use of Edge, as a trade off the skill would be more expensive to buy with karma as a CF, but hey, still cheaper than learning a skill at rating 4.

-D



Exactly what I was looking for, thank you very much.
Yerameyahu
They're both only for rerolling failed Tests, which is nice, but one of the weakest Edge options. :/
Sixgun_Sage
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 29 2010, 10:30 PM) *
They're both only for rerolling failed Tests, which is nice, but one of the weakest Edge options. :/



But it addresses my original concern exactly.
Yerameyahu
I know, but someone implied that it was better than actually getting the skills. smile.gif I just wanted to point out the difference, even for Technomancers. It is cheaper, but you get what you pay for.
Walpurgisborn
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Sep 29 2010, 09:00 PM) *
was hoping for a reason other than "game balance" when I do in fact find even that justification suspect.

You're right, it's pretty damn broken as is.
Dumori
Of corse with swap maxed an TM can just on the fly any skill they need. Bar there special TM skills. With a goodenough DP thats every skill at 4+ with a reroll. Sure its unlikely and require a good few echos but can be done. In my eyes TMs have the most fun options in the game. From brainwashing by touch to jack of all trades they need to be. Hell they can already be classed as a 4 in any knowledge skill as they can emulate knowsofts too.
DMiller
Keep in mind to emulate a skill they need to gain access to a software version of it. I know that's not a major factor if you have pirated software in your games, but it does slow them down a bit.

-D
Yerameyahu
Well, only if they have access to the information. Luckily, accessing information is their whole raison d'Ítre, but they still have to go through the hoops.
Marcus
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 30 2010, 02:06 AM) *
Well, only if they have access to the information. Luckily, accessing information is their whole raison d'Ítre, but they still have to go through the hoops.


As long as it getting paid for and the chance of failure is there, Just the way the game is played. No one gonna beat a Edged up threaded + Edged up hack on the fly roll for having the very best possible chance for jump straight to Admin. It is one of those things about 4E that makes me slightly concerned. Lacking stat linked to decking theoretically means you could do as other have suggested and dump basically everything and just buy up Hacking gear and try and roll faces that way, I feel fairly certain it would crash in burn in long run. But it's really a discussion for another thread.
Yerameyahu
I just meant that they can't 'magically' have KnowSoft 4 in everything, that's all. smile.gif They still have to steal the info from somewhere.
Marcus
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 30 2010, 02:22 AM) *
I just meant that they can't 'magically' have KnowSoft 4 in everything, that's all. smile.gif They still have to steal the info from somewhere.


True true. The Matrix is mother the matrix is father. But Mommy and Daddy make you work for it.
Dumori
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 30 2010, 07:22 AM) *
I just meant that they can't 'magically' have KnowSoft 4 in everything, that's all. smile.gif They still have to steal the info from somewhere.

True but it's an almost ingnorable cost for one or two knowsofts at rating 1
Yerameyahu
I'm not sure what you mean. KnowSofts are only available if the information is available, and higher-rating information is rarer. I guess you're saying that they could buy everything at 1, and 'magically' add information to it with their Technomancer powers, but a GM wouldn't allow that. It's not the same as making an Armor program run better, after all.
sabs
Don't the rules specifically say that TM's can't thread Know/Active softs?
Dumori
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 30 2010, 04:06 PM) *
Don't the rules specifically say that TM's can't thread Know/Active softs?

No try that the other way round.
Dumori
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 30 2010, 04:05 PM) *
I'm not sure what you mean. KnowSofts are only available if the information is available, and higher-rating information is rarer. I guess you're saying that they could buy everything at 1, and 'magically' add information to it with their Technomancer powers, but a GM wouldn't allow that. It's not the same as making an Armor program run better, after all.

Mecanicaly it is. Wy you thread better you pull better code from around the martix/resonance all you do with knowsofts is pull them from around the matrix/resonance .
Yerameyahu
I'm not talking about the RAW; obviously, many crazy things are legal. I'm saying that a GM shouldn't let secret information appear from nowhere because the guy 'optimizes' the rating 1 Knowsoft. It doesn't make sense, unless we're handwaving that the Resonance goes and (again, 'magically') pulls the information from everywhere for you. Given that there's an Echo more or less for that, it seems incorrect.

That's a possible fluff, but not one that makes any sense. CFs aren't made of normal code, after all. And it is simply fluff. *shrug* Again, I'm not saying RAW doesn't allow it. I'm saying a GM shouldn't. There are many things in the RAW that don't make sense, after all. Free knowledge skills hardly matters, but since you mentioned it… smile.gif
sabs
QUOTE (Dumori @ Sep 30 2010, 04:14 PM) *
No try that the other way round.


Ah kinda
They have to have the active/knowsoft and then they can use threading to 'convert it' into a Complex Form that they can temporarily sustain, or pay karma for to memorize.

That's different than being able to thread it out of whole cloth all the way to rating 12 (for example)
Marcus
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 30 2010, 10:06 AM) *
Don't the rules specifically say that TM's can't thread Know/Active softs?

With the correct Echo, they can Emulate an existing piece of Activesoft/Knowsolft/Linguasoft subject to
a some Limitations, further they can choose to Purchase said Emulation as a CF. However the point is
That software exists somewhere in the Matrix. So theoretically you can go find it. Subject to the rule
easier said then done.
Dumori
QUOTE (Marcus @ Sep 30 2010, 04:58 PM) *
With the correct Echo, they can Emulate an existing piece of Activesoft/Knowsolft/Linguasoft subject to
a some Limitations, further they can choose to Purchase said Emulation as a CF. However the point is
That software exists somewhere in the Matrix. So theoretically you can go find it. Subject to the rule
easier said then done.

Nah TMs are uber dataminers they'll find it or there spirtes will.
Yerameyahu
Right, but they should be required to *actually* go find it, or make a Sprite do it. smile.gif
Marcus
QUOTE (Dumori @ Sep 30 2010, 11:01 AM) *
Nah TMs are uber dataminers they'll find it or there spirtes will.


Most stuff I generally agree. But its alway the edge cases you use to make a point. So we know people use Skillwires to prevent there labor force from developing the skill they need to do their jobs (Thus making them dependent upon there Corp). This logic could be made to apply to other things. If there is information so sensitive that they can't risk someone actually knowing it they might very well stick it in a skillwire. Just imagen how crazy hard that piece of software could be to hack up.
sabs
DIMAP coding makes the skillwire expert system a waste and fixes your problem entirely.

QUOTE
DIMAP
Program Types: Simsense (Skillsoft)
The Direct Interpretive Memory Augmentation Programming
(DIMAP) option allows the user to better interpret the skillsoftís
programming and more easily incorporate that information with
the userís own memories. Since this brings the skillsoft skill closer
to a real skill learned over time, this option exceptionally allows
players to use Edge to reroll a failed test when using that skillsoft.
Yerameyahu
Welcome to 20 posts ago, sabs. biggrin.gif Although, the Expert *is* cheaper if you're buying your 'softs legal.
sabs
CF's don't suffer from degradation.
Why would you bother?

Yerameyahu
That assumes you're buying them all with Karma. smile.gif Also, CF-ing DIMAP costs Karma as well.

I'm only pointing out the differences. It's not like I care either way.
sabs
it's true
Getting a new skill from rating 0 to rating 5 = 32 Karma
Getting a CF with all those optimizations to the same effective rating would cost you 46 karma.

So it's not exactly a win, you're better off just learning the skill.

Course, you could /buy/ the skill all legal like, so it automatically stays updated and you CF it when you need it.
DMiller
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 1 2010, 01:56 AM) *
it's true
Getting a new skill from rating 0 to rating 5 = 32 Karma
Getting a CF with all those optimizations to the same effective rating would cost you 46 karma.

So it's not exactly a win, you're better off just learning the skill.

Course, you could /buy/ the skill all legal like, so it automatically stays updated and you CF it when you need it.

sabs,

I think your math might be a bit off.
For your CF cost, are you including the submrsion costs? If you're not the cost for a skillsoft 5 (with personalized and DIMAP) to CF conversion would be 7 karma. THis will get you 8 dice + attribute and the ability to reroll failures.

You really can't include the karma cost of the submersion as that is something the TM would likely be doing anyway, and as you add skills to the CF library the submersion cost should be divided between the number of skills you acquire thus reducing the cost per skill ratio (again assuming the sumbersion cost is included).

-D
sabs
No I'm not including the karma cost for submersions.

Look at the costs of CF in karma expenditures.

new CF 2 karma
raising CF by 1 Rating Karma

Skillsoft rating is 4
Personalized, DIMAP, codeplus 3 is 5 additional optimizations
so that gives us a rating of 9 for CF costs.
Rating 1 = 2
Rating 2= 2
Rating 3 = 3
Rating 4 = 4
Rating 5 = 5
Rating 6 = 6
Rating 7 = 7
Rating 8 = 8
Rating 9 = 9

Full cost of CF = 46
Marcus
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 1 2010, 07:54 AM) *
No I'm not including the karma cost for submersions.

Look at the costs of CF in karma expenditures.

new CF 2 karma
raising CF by 1 Rating Karma

Skillsoft rating is 4
Personalized, DIMAP, codeplus 3 is 5 additional optimizations
so that gives us a rating of 9 for CF costs.
Rating 1 = 2
Rating 2= 2
Rating 3 = 3
Rating 4 = 4
Rating 5 = 5
Rating 6 = 6
Rating 7 = 7
Rating 8 = 8
Rating 9 = 9

Full cost of CF = 46


Unwired page 149
To learn a Skillwire you have been emulating you pay its rating in karma +1 for each program option.
So Rating 4 skill soft = 4 +1 for DIMAP = 5.
Any questions?
sabs
QUOTE (Marcus @ Oct 1 2010, 02:24 PM) *
Unwired page 149
To learn a Skillwire you have been emulating you pay its rating in karma +1 for each program option.
So Rating 4 skill soft = 4 +1 for DIMAP = 5.
Any questions?


Personalize +1
DIMAP +1
CODEPLUS + 3

are you really that dense?
Marcus
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 1 2010, 08:28 AM) *
Personalize +1
DIMAP +1
CODEPLUS + 3

are you really that dense?


lol generally. I'm really trying to understand what your saying bro. But there's clearly a failure in transmission I can see what you would want Personalized as option for another +1, I doubt if i'd let that one got as a GM, but clearly its within the rules. I can't even find Codeplus, if you mean Pluscode,well "the maximum rating Limit" I assume it referring to the number of Skillsoft it can run at once, which is irrelevant given that you can run unlimited CFs. As to the rest of your math its a mystery to me. 149 is clear, and i don't see anyway to translate a rating 4 into 46. Given that the cost list to learn an emulated Skillsoft is it's rating in karma +1 for each option or +1 per option rating. So unless you got a page reference that proves otherwise I can only assume some issue beyond my understand are at work here.
sabs
It's +1 for each option or option rating
You start with 4 for the Knowsoft Rating
You add +1 for Personalize making it 5
You add +1 for DIMAP
You ad +3 for PlusCODE 3

That gets you to 9

TM Cannot run as many CF as they like when it comes to biowires.

QUOTE
In game terms, it operates with a rating equal
to the submersion grade of the technomancer. In all other regards,
it follows the basic rules for skillwire systems.


that means that at submersiong rade 5 it works like skillwires 5.
Rating * 2 total points
Rating is the max rating a program can have.

The plus code lets you have a rating 4 activesoft only cost you 1 point.
So you can run 10 Activesofts, instead of 2
Marcus
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 1 2010, 09:12 AM) *
It's +1 for each option or option rating
You start with 4 for the Knowsoft Rating
You add +1 for Personalize making it 5
You add +1 for DIMAP
You ad +3 for PlusCODE 3

That gets you to 9

TM Cannot run as many CF as they like when it comes to biowires.


that means that at submersiong rade 5 it works like skillwires 5.
Rating * 2 total points
Rating is the max rating a program can have.

The plus code lets you have a rating 4 activesoft only cost you 1 point.
So you can run 10 Activesofts, instead of 2


It's an interesting point on the limit. 9 I can see, I just can't see 46. However I don't think i'd pay 3 more karma when i could just switch out which one was active at any given time, especially given that submersion rating is gonna keep going up.
sabs
Page 270 of the SR4A the Character Improvement Table
Improvement:Karma Cost
New Complex Form: 2
Improving a Complex form by 1: New Rating

You don't pay 4 Karma for the Dodge 4 CF
You pay 11

If that Dodge CF has Personalize, DIMAP, and PlusCode 3.
You don't pay 9, you pay 46


That is btw, and interesting point:
Skillwire systems are limited to rating 5.
Would you let biowires go up to 12?
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