That still doesn't make sense…

Okay, I'll bite
What doesn't make sense?

CF's have the same karma cost as knowledge skills from what I can tell.
So think of them as knowledge skills for buying with karma.

Ah, program options count exactly as an entire extra level? I didn't think that was true:Now, that means that Rating 4 (11 Karma) + your 5 option-levels (10 Karma) = 21 Karma (not 46). However, this may also be relevant to us:Does this mean options, or option-levels? I assume the former; still, that means you can't have Personalized, DIMAP, *and* Pluscode without a rating 6 CF. You'll need to Thread them:That last sentence implies that you can thread more Options onto a CF if its Rating is also increased by the Threading; however, a non-Threaded CF can't have more Options than half-Rating, even if the options are Threaded on.

Except that the BIOWIRE infor says somethign slightly different.
OOOh I miss read the emulation section:



Bolded for emphasis.

So,couple of points
It looks like I can put as many Program options into a skillsoft as I want, unlike other CF's
I was completely off about the cost it would only cost 9 Karma to get a Rating 4 skillsoft with all those options.

It's possible the rules for threading CF's apply, but there are definitely alternate rules for creating a Skillsoft CF compared to other CFs

So we were both wrong. That's kinda stupid, though: Options should still cost 2/point, not 1, and I'm not sure the RAW even says that you can exceed the general half-Rating Options limit. If so, you shouldn't be able to.

Another issue that's been raised before is whether you can Thread CF'd Activesofts higher. By the general rules, yes. However, the fact that the Threading test to emulate doesn't do that implies that you can't (and we know that Activesofts are intended to be limited). Another place where the book is a little mismatched and unclear.

you cant' get Skillsofts over rating 4 though.

and yes we were both wrong :grin:

and Emulation CF's are clearly different.
I don't know how I feel about it.
On one hand, It makes biowires so much cooler than skillwires.
On the other, biowires require you to be Initiate rating 5, have spent at least 1 echo on it
Find these skillsofts and then spend karma to thread them up and learn them.

Still, spending 9 karma for a rating 5 skill
that's pretty cool, being able to have 10 of those running at once.
That's amazing.

I agree that this isn't for free: you have to have the super-Biowires in the first place, and then you have to at least buy the pirated version of each 'soft you want to emulate (and save), as you said. Note, also, that you're not *adding* Options beyond the base 'soft being copied (which is max 2 for Rating 4).

I'm still not positive about some things:
1. Whether or not you can *later* Thread your CF'd 'softs higher than 4,
2. Whether they can have more than 2 Options (Rating/2, if you *can* Thread them above 4),
3. Whether they can be improved with Karma as normal CFs (expensive, of course),
4. Whether (houserule) it shouldn't be 2 Karma per Option-Level.

Can't i legally buy the skillsoft with all those options already built in?
Forget pirating it.
Just freaking buy it straight up from the Corps.

How do you handle emulating the skillsuites?

You can only buy the 'soft with Rating/2 Options already in, is my point. And buying it 'straight up' is ungodly expensive, and a waste: you're going to CF-ize it anyway, right?

You're a technomancer what are you using money on anyways?
It's not like you pay for your lifestyle

I suppose that limit of rating/2 makes my equivalent hacker character look a bit better.

he gets 10 rating 5 skills for straight up nuyen, no karma needed.

how are you going to load it on to your biowires with you dont emulate it any way?

Even better is when you buy the skillchip and then return it next week for a refund or store credit.

I did say /hacker/ character.

My hacker character with skillwires 5, and wired reflexes I

as opposed to a technomancer.

Where?

Right here Dumori ^^^^^

No clue, because the limit is Rating/2 and Rating 4 for everyone. Let's focus, people.

It is?
I must reread Unwired

So it does.
Well, I'd skip DIMAP then PlusCode is much more useful.

I see now, page 114 of Unwired.

It's the general Option rule. Yeah, DIMAP sucks.

Well it sucks for mundanes who can get expert skill wire systems.

it's potentially cool for a Technomancer who cant.

One of my favorite characters has:

skillwire 5
expert skillwire system
wired reflexes I
encephalon 2
PuSHeD
The neocortial nanites

electronics 4
cracking 4
Data Search 6

Knowledge skills:
Data Havens
Warez Sites

Black Market Pipeline: software
Contact: Pirate VPN

He's great fun, when ever the team needs a skill, he just slots it. It's a weakish build at the beginning, but after a few sessions/missions it really starts to get fun.

Based upon the wording of Emulation I would say no.


The issue here is once the damn thing is a complex from can you thread it?
I don't think the intent was to let it be threaded, but given the wording I can't prove anything. It says memorize the skillsoft as a complex form. I don't see them wanting to let TM start running around with activesofts at 12s, but the real issue is the hard cap on skill soft can't be 4, (b/c the cyborg rules specifically talk about rating 5 skillsofts) so there needs to be clarification here what if any is max of skillsofts? Are they in fact threadable?


No. Emulation does not discuss raising them. But i'd probably house rule that if it ever came up and just charge the difference in the two ratings. (Which is really just me saying Yes, but more round about.)



Eh. I don't really have a problem with the cost in general, especially if the hard cap is in fact 4. Any Karma they aren't spending on raising resonance is adding breadth to the character imo.

Mhm. Well, cyborgs could be a special exception, but good point.

You're right that it depends on the interplay of factors: *if* you can raise them (Karma or Threading), *then* the initial Karma cost being so cheap is an issue. And so on; it depends on how these various things work together, which is kind of what the OP asked, 'did the writers talk?'.

You can't raise it, actually. The unwired errata puts the foot down on buying up learned CFs with karma, or threading them up.
Sprite assistance is the only method left of boosting biowire cfs, and that's short term.
The fact that its a complex form, however, opens up some interesting options with lifestyles - if you have a resonance well or In-Tune, you can claim the +dice on resonancey-stuff with your emulated CF's while at home. This has some nice implicatons for technical skills.

That being said, on the ops question, I do think biowires and skillwire expert systems are compatable.
Why?
Because the FAQ says a technomancer can benefit from a Simsense Booster cyberware, gaining an extra pass with their bionode, which means that tech and resonance actually -can- play well together. This should satisfy any out-of-rules/background fluff/'it doesn't work like that!" issues.
Then there's the rules:
A biowire says this:" In game terms, it operates with a rating equal to the submersion grade of a the technomancer. in all other regards, it follows the basic rules for a skillwire system."
An Expert system says this: "This implant allows a character with a skillwire system to use edge to reroll a failed test when using skillsofts"
does an expert system fall under other "all other regards?" Yes.
Problem solved.

Interesting!

The FAQ does say that you can't thread-up a skillsoft that has been converted to a CF. Sorry I don't know how to link the exact post, but it is in the official FAQ.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

-D

Official FAQ is BS it contradicts RAW and such in places. In some it can be read as self contradictory. It's hardly gospal its more like surgested house rules that soem people involved with CGL had.

I think the Errata is best for everyone. It's pretty clear.

True the offical errata reads

I recall the FAQ/dev chat line being yep you can thread you skill over 7 if you want.

On the face of it, that just sounds bad, Dumori. I like the clear limitation of the Errata (which I apologize that I didn't really read before participating in this thread).

edit: oops. Didn't see page 4. someone beat me to it.

Right. So, that pretty much answers all my questions, I guess?

It only leaves #4: is it a fair price to CF-ize ActiveSofts+Options at a cost of 1 Karma per Rating/Option? Given that that max out at 4 (with 2 options max), that'd be 8 Karma per Rating 4 pseudo-Skill (with Personalized and PlusCode 3; just 4 without those). A real skill costs the same 8 Karma just for level 2, and 22 Karma for level 4. Should it be compared to level 5 (32 Karma), though, because of Personalized?

Hmm. If you wanted to make it a little more expensive, there are two good options: double the list cost, or 2 Karma per Rating and 1 Karma per Option. Double is 16 (half of a real Skill 5), while the split version is 12 (about half of real Skill 4). Yes, everyone would always get Personalized this way, but still; they would anyway.

I do think its fair to point out the personalized is going to make acquiring said software difficult, the wording on personalized is that it has to be customized specifically for your character. I can totally buy finding base rating soft on the net, i can even buy pluscode on the net. But I can't buy that someone happens to have personalized activesofts sitting around waiting for you. Which isn't to say you can't get them, just that you will have to ether program them yourself or lay out the cash for them.

You're a technomancer with software skill, you can probably program them yourself.
Or you can lay out the cash for them pretty easily. It's like 48K per skill.

What else are you spending your money on as a technomancer.
Drones?

Beer and Pizza?

Same I think its the ONLY errata. CGL put out before a a reprint of the book. Why can't they fix the others too.

you spend money on beer and pizza?
you are a horrible technomancer!

LOL fair point.

Hey when the same guy delivers pizza to your place and the names on the account are never the same twice. Might send up a couple of real world flags.

am I not spoofing Lifestyle, and changing locations every couple of weeks anyways?

TM: Hey! registered machine sprite! You have the Software autosoft, cause the resonance cheats like that. Make me a personalized program option, and rush the job because you have stability.

*two weeks of occasionally reregistering two sprites*
TM: "Hey! now use Patching to add it into this pirated autosoft before it degrades."
*one week later*
TM: Emulates a newly-personalized skillsoft, and learns it.

Additionally, if you're looking to really optimize your emulations, grab Pluscode 6, not 3.

3 may seem like the sweet spot, because it lets you run a r4 with only 1 'skillwire slot' taken up.
However, sprite assistance adds the sprites rating to the rating of the complex form. Which means its suddenly going to hog a lot of memory on your biowires if you use this trick.
There's -usually- no reason to have an Optimized 6 option, but as a Rated complex form, it does go up that high.
For a technomancer, being able to reduce a R4 emulation boosted to r7 down to 1 slot may be worth planning for.

I still don't think anything should be allowed to use Software, but oh well.

*Can* you use anything (including Sprites) to raise an ActiveSoft (emulated into a CF)? Can an Option exceed the rating of its program?

Your concept is a fair point, and it will work. But your still are looking at 3 months even with stability to preventing things from becoming an epic screw up. The patching is fine in general but if you check unwired 114 you will find a program can only be equipped with number of options equal to half its rating. So, you can get R4 Autosoft, with Personalization and Pluscode 1 if you feel so inclined. (All be it you add another month to the process, but thats not huge deal.) Its worth mentioning that the bigger downside imo is the karma cost.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=817120

See, exactly what I asked. Thanks!

So did I but the ability to long time serrise a sprite or just reregister it while it programs you some skill softs that still dont cost you much to emulate karma wise isn't a bad deal.

I agree that it is a good deal. And if i ever make TM i promise i'd pick that echo up around 2nd or 3rd. The only real downside is the time. Software hacking and creation isn't a huge deal programming wise, the difficulty isn't very high, but intervals are big, programing environments can cut that in half. But even so activesoft are 6 months! Not a lot you can do about it, and if you don't score 8 hits on that test well your not gonna like it. (Not that 8 hit should be hard, given all the ways to modify it.)

Can you use a Tutor Sprite to run the skill soft as a service?

Can you then learn it off them and then buy it as a CF?

It appears that you have to have access to actual ActiveSofts to emulate them.

Well, it appears the devs have put their foot down on boosting emulation. Oh well. Putting that in the 'should have been errata but isn't, cause Catalyst is lazy' files.



Minor nitpick: Options, not option ratings. An option, if present, can be rated from 1-6 unless its says it has its own cap, or if its unrated, in which case it counts as rating 3.
The slots you have for an option don't care about the rating of the option inside it. Just thought I'd clarify that. The only thing using a higher rating on an option does is increase the cost.



Yes you certainly can do that, but is there any reason you can't use threading to make one up from scratch?




To the first, I don't think so. you need an echo in order to share complex forms and widgets with your technomancer group - or have a networking resonance bond with a free sprite.
To the second, I think you actually can, because one of the mainpurposes of sprites is to aid study, and learning a complex form directly from a sprite bypasses the emulation rules by using the generic 'learn a new complex form' rules.
However, a tutor sprite only has access to Technical, Vehicle or Knowledge skillsofts. Datasprites have Linguasofts
Machine sprites, sadly, don't work - they have autosofts, but those aren't activesofts.

I don't get it, though. Limiting technomancers to the hardware-equivalents of a ware-limited sammy doesn't seem right, when sprites just WHEEE and fly past the rating 4 limit on activesofts and programs all the time (except on expert defense and expert offense, oddly, such as on paladin sprites).

Yes. The rules.

would you kindly point out where it says you *must* do that?