Biowire and the Skillwire Expert System, Why Writers need to cross check. Options

[Sixgun_Sage]

I'm a big fan of technomancers, they start off relatively limited but sink some karma in them and they become digital gods, they are also decent second tier combatants when done right (I'm looking at you Accel echo), but I have a question about the biowire echo. Namely it specifies it mimicing the skillwire system, however in Augmentation the expert skillwire specifis it's greater integration in the system as te reason for allowing edge to reroll failure. If this is so shouldn't Biowire as an organic adaptation gain the same benefit (at least)to the system of the technomancer, an individual with a natural affinity for electronic information manipulation and processing. Has this been addressed somewhere I am unaware of such as in 4A or a piece of errata?

[Aaron]

The name "expert system" suggests that there's not merely integration going on, but a system that augments the normal skillwires beyond merely the integration. Technomancers wouldn't have the additional electronics, and wouldn't have any way to properly mimic it anyway.

[Sixgun_Sage]

The name "expert system" suggests that there's not merely integration going on, but a system that augments the normal skillwires beyond merely the integration. Technomancers wouldn't have the additional electronics, and wouldn't have any way to properly mimic it anyway.

Except the only justification they offer for the expert system's function is the enhanced integration leading to improved transmission, one could easilly make a case fo Technomancers getting an even better functional increase from a skillwire CF since it is functionally part of them in a way a skillwire expert system cannot mimic.

[Dumori]

If it really irks you let then have an echo for it or include it in the echo.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Eh, it isn't a huge issue for me, it just seems like an odd distinction to go "this system allows people to use skillwires even better then the people that can copy a skillwire directly to their brain."

[Marcus]

Except the only justification they offer for the expert system's function is the enhanced integration leading to improved transmission, one could easilly make a case fo Technomancers getting an even better functional increase from a skillwire CF since it is functionally part of them in a way a skillwire expert system cannot mimic.

I think its a reasonable house rule to give it. Its clearly not part of the stated ability, but I can see how you reach that conclusion. Echo and deep Echo still have bugs (lol) to be worked out imo.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Eh, it isn't a huge issue for me, it just seems like an odd distinction to go "this system allows people to use skillwires even better then the people that can copy a skillwire directly to their brain."

Without the little drawback of actually NEEDING wires to run that downloaded software.... sometimes there are tradeoffs, and not everything is equal...

The fact that a Technomancer does not need anything but an Emulated CF to use any skill in the book is extremely powerful... Why complain that you do not get the benefits of the Skillwire expert system to boot? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Marcus]

Without the little drawback of actually NEEDING wires to run that downloaded software.... sometimes there are tradeoffs, and not everything is equal...

The fact that a Technomancer does not need anything but an Emulated CF to use any skill in the book is extremely powerful... Why complain that you do not get the benefits of the Skillwire expert system to boot? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Your asking why gamers are sad when we can't have our cake and eat it too? lol

[Sixgun_Sage]

Without the little drawback of actually NEEDING wires to run that downloaded software.... sometimes there are tradeoffs, and not everything is equal...

The fact that a Technomancer does not need anything but an Emulated CF to use any skill in the book is extremely powerful... Why complain that you do not get the benefits of the Skillwire expert system to boot? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Not so much a complaint as an observation but I will point out a skillwire sammy does not have to pay 2 karma for every skillchip he gets. when you factor that into the already exacting karma costs of improving a TM...

Not that I don't think the TM gets a nice benefit from biowire, I just don't think having it be less efficient than skillwire expert system makes much sense.

[Aaron]

Except the only justification they offer for the expert system's function is the enhanced integration leading to improved transmission, one could easilly make a case fo Technomancers getting an even better functional increase from a skillwire CF since it is functionally part of them in a way a skillwire expert system cannot mimic.

If that's the case, then it's hardware doing the enhancing. Technomancers seem to have the ability to interpret and generate RF signals, but they don't seem to have the ability to grow hardware out of their floppy biological bits.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not so much a complaint as an observation but I will point out a skillwire sammy does not have to pay 2 karma for every skillchip he gets. when you factor that into the already exacting karma costs of improving a TM...

Not that I don't think the TM gets a nice benefit from biowire, I just don't think having it be less efficient than skillwire expert system makes much sense.

But I would disagree that it is less effecient than a Skilwire expert system.... you are taking a Skillsoft and emulating it WITHOUT THE NEED OF ANY MECHANICAL INTERFACE WHATSOEVER (which no one else can even attempt, let alone succeed at))... and you do not have to pay 2 Karma to have the skillsoft... You can emulate it and NEVER purchase it as a CF... I would argue that buying it as a CF keeps you from having to emulate it, and then it acts, for all intents and purposes as a True Skill (Far less Karma Expenditure involved there if you look at the figures)...

[Sixgun_Sage]

But I would disagree that it is less effecient than a Skilwire expert system.... you are taking a Skillsoft and emulating it WITHOUT THE NEED OF ANY MECHANICAL INTERFACE WHATSOEVER (which no one else can even attempt, let alone succeed at))... and you do not have to pay 2 Karma to have the skillsoft... You can emulate it and NEVER purchase it as a CF... I would argue that buying it as a CF keeps you from having to emulate it, and then it acts, for all intents and purposes as a True Skill (Far less Karma Expenditure involved there if you look at the figures)...

Oh, I won't argue the cost of actually buying a skill against the cost of biowire and learning the CF version, honestly I consider skillwires a bad idea and try to limit their use in my games, but when you look at the experience cost of submersion or learning the echo on it's own plus the karma expense of learning the CF... I won't argue you don't have to learn the Skillwire as a CF, you could emulate it and suffer the sustaining penalty.

I guess my point is the inclusion of the expert system and having biowire inferior to it seems to be somewhat arbitrary. Yes you don't have to spend cash and karma for the systems if you have biowire, but you do have to spend a significant amount of karma. was hoping for a reason other than "game balance" when I do in fact find even that justification suspect.

[Marcus]

But I would disagree that it is less effecient than a Skilwire expert system.... you are taking a Skillsoft and emulating it WITHOUT THE NEED OF ANY MECHANICAL INTERFACE WHATSOEVER (which no one else can even attempt, let alone succeed at))... and you do not have to pay 2 Karma to have the skillsoft... You can emulate it and NEVER purchase it as a CF... I would argue that buying it as a CF keeps you from having to emulate it, and then it acts, for all intents and purposes as a True Skill (Far less Karma Expenditure involved there if you look at the figures)...

mmmm. Given that the mechanics you need can be totally internal I'm not so sure I'd give you the first point. But your completely correct on the 2nd part. However echos aren't cheap in and of themselves, and anything that draws Karma away from getting more of them, is certainly slowing things down.
If you read the section on it you can indeed buy it as a CF, and even cooler sense really what your doing is Copying over the actual program you can put the cool program option on it. Which is nice all be it a little more expensive but all good.

[Yerameyahu]

It's simple. Biowires duplicates basic Skillwires. You want additional emulation, use additional Echoes. The fluff doesn't matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Alternatively, you can house-rule that the Biowires *are* the best kind of skillwires (Expert, etc.). I wouldn't argue that it's a travesty that they're not… nor even a writer error. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I agree that Technomancers should, at least in theory, be able to emulate almost any personal electronics/'wires'. They're the electro-Bene-Gesserit. It just shouldn't be *easy*.

[DMiller]

The TM could also use the DIMAP program option when he emulates the skill. This would also allow the use of Edge, as a trade off the skill would be more expensive to buy with karma as a CF, but hey, still cheaper than learning a skill at rating 4.

-D

[Sixgun_Sage]

The TM could also use the DIMAP program option when he emulates the skill. This would also allow the use of Edge, as a trade off the skill would be more expensive to buy with karma as a CF, but hey, still cheaper than learning a skill at rating 4.

-D

Exactly what I was looking for, thank you very much.

[Yerameyahu]

They're both only for rerolling failed Tests, which is nice, but one of the weakest Edge options. :/

[Sixgun_Sage]

They're both only for rerolling failed Tests, which is nice, but one of the weakest Edge options. :/

But it addresses my original concern exactly.

[Yerameyahu]

I know, but someone implied that it was better than actually getting the skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I just wanted to point out the difference, even for Technomancers. It is cheaper, but you get what you pay for.

[Walpurgisborn]

was hoping for a reason other than "game balance" when I do in fact find even that justification suspect.

You're right, it's pretty damn broken as is.

[Dumori]

Of corse with swap maxed an TM can just on the fly any skill they need. Bar there special TM skills. With a goodenough DP thats every skill at 4+ with a reroll. Sure its unlikely and require a good few echos but can be done. In my eyes TMs have the most fun options in the game. From brainwashing by touch to jack of all trades they need to be. Hell they can already be classed as a 4 in any knowledge skill as they can emulate knowsofts too.

[DMiller]

Keep in mind to emulate a skill they need to gain access to a software version of it. I know that's not a major factor if you have pirated software in your games, but it does slow them down a bit.

-D

[Yerameyahu]

Well, only if they have access to the information. Luckily, accessing information is their whole raison d'être, but they still have to go through the hoops.

[Marcus]

Well, only if they have access to the information. Luckily, accessing information is their whole raison d'être, but they still have to go through the hoops.

As long as it getting paid for and the chance of failure is there, Just the way the game is played. No one gonna beat a Edged up threaded + Edged up hack on the fly roll for having the very best possible chance for jump straight to Admin. It is one of those things about 4E that makes me slightly concerned. Lacking stat linked to decking theoretically means you could do as other have suggested and dump basically everything and just buy up Hacking gear and try and roll faces that way, I feel fairly certain it would crash in burn in long run. But it's really a discussion for another thread.

[Yerameyahu]

I just meant that they can't 'magically' have KnowSoft 4 in everything, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They still have to steal the info from somewhere.