One hit (for an unopposed roll) is sufficient to cast this spell and make the target do whatever the caster wants?

One net hit, is enough. That it is indeed an opposed roll is in the introduction to manipulation spells.

Acc... missed the generic rule for all the Manipulation spells. Still a powerful spell!

Thank you!

Yeah, it is. In third edition you at least had a chance to withstand with high willpower. (But if you failed... you were controlled as long as the mage sustained *g*).

But control spells are always pretty heavy. Good thing they at least have a nice drain.

Once again reinforcing that old adage. Geek the mage first!

Doesn't help when the mage makes you think the troll tank is the mage...

That's why my mages don't run around in robes and carry assault rifles on runs.

At the most recent GenCon I was in a Missions game that had two magicians in the group. The solution to nearly every obstacle or problem we encountered from Legwork to Combat was either Mind Probe or Control Thoughts. The two magicians weren't doing anything wrong, mind you. They were working with their chosen tools to accomplish the team goals and perfectly within the rules. The two magician players were probably having fun but the guy who brought the 'face' character was not. I also couldn't help but notice that the two magicians were using the mental manipulations as a sort of crutch. They made little use of spirits or astral projection or any other spells, for that matter.

I'm trying to keep from accusing them of "wrong bad fun" but I can't help but think the game would have been more fun for everyone if those two spells hadn't existed. Certainly in a convention game where people bring their own characters and play with people they don't know it is easy to have problems with team composition and preferred modus operandi. I took that convention session as a reminder that a GM must be careful when allowing those spells and must make sure that the whole group is on board for the sort of game where use of mental manipulation spells is commonplace. It also made me grateful to the mage in my game who chose not to take mental manipulations but is still the most useful and versatile character in the game.

Well this is the GM's fault, if those two constantly use manipulation magic and always get away with it. There are people with high willpower and those that take precautions against mindraping mages. Not to mention that they leave quite a few traces.

Couldn't these spells be evened out just by boosting the resistance test? Like willpower x 2 instead of just will?

Too bad even a willpower of 6 or 7 still isn't enough to help any, and there is basically no way to 'take precautions against mindraping mages' because there is nothing that can prevent magic except for other magic. So, you quickly have to have every person in the world walking around with their own personal counterspelling mage to prevent this, which is fairly silly.

Adages like 'geek the mage' are fairly pointless, because it is more or less impossible to tell who a mage is in any group until they start casting spells, and even then it is difficult. And personally I don't think a 'geek the mage' rule is anything remotely approaching balance. In fact, I think it points out that balance does not exist when one archetype is so powerful that it is universally accepted that you should kill it first because it is so powerful.

It's like saying Mr. Manhattan isn't overpowered because everyone knows he is overpowered.

Spells of reasonable force (5) are mechanically blatantly obvious, even though the fluff says otherwise. Anyone who is expecting trouble can just give a warning that casting will not be tolerated and then shoot/subdue any mage as soon as they start casting (that's what delaying an action is for). Even if that does not work, the mage leaves his signature behind unless he thinks to erase it. A pissed off NPC has every right to hunt the offending mage down.
I'm against blanketing the game world with Background Count, but a crafty NPC who expect the mages he meets to do funny stuff, may specificlaay call for a meeting in moderate to high BC.
Then there are the problems with the two spells in question:
- The target of a mind probe is aware of the probing and can do whatever he wants, while being read.
- Nowhere does it says what the target of Control thoughts can do when he is not under orders. Especially in the time between the casting and the first opportunity for the mage to formulate an order.

It's just a common phrase, not a balancing tool.

Who's that?

I don't think that spell is particularly overpowered.

You are forgetting that issuing orders with control thoughts is a simple action. And that Force limits the Net hits on the test, even with the use of edge.
If a mage tries to use control throughts with a street samurai, or even with a small group he can be in quite a bit of trouble. If Force is 5+ everyone will notice they are being enchanted (as per Noticing Magic Rules), and as they have not been issued orders yet, the may act freely. And then they will probably pump the mage with a LOT of flying lead. That is particularly true for groups of enemies. And if them mage does NOT have multiple IPs ready, he can be even be dropped before he can act on it.

He might call it on a lesser Force, but as force limts net hits, it will result in a spell that will be quite easy to resist in the end.

Force limits hits, not net hits. Edge dice can exceed this maximum. Otherwise you are correct.

I don't have much of a problem with mind probe for exactly that reason, I'm thinking more control thoughts. So, if the caster doesn't direct it, the target doesn't do it.

And who really cares if the person gives a warning when the mage just mind controls the person and/or their entire group? "Oh, don't mind control me or I'm going to be mad, but not able to actually do anything about it."

You are right though, RAW makes it stupidly easy to notice spellcasters, even if you remember to add all the proper perception modifiers. As for leaving a signature, once again, "Magic must defeat magic."

And yet whenever someone mentions that mages are too powerful, the first counter argument is always "Well, that's why you geek the mage first." So yeah, it is being used as a balancing tool, even if not intentionally.

From the comic book/movie Watchmen. Basically all superheros in the book are limited to 'a bit stronger/faster than normal', kind of like batman. And then Mr. Manhatten is a super being that can see into the future, teleport instantly, doesn't breath or age, can't die, can rip people's molecules apart with a thought, create clones of himself, warp physics, create mater, and basically make superman look like a total weakling chump.

Hmm have a drone constantly analyze your surroundings. If it detects magic use (Or SR4A's stupid sparkles) have it flood the room with a toxin you are immune to, or simply shoot anyone but you and your associates. If you're nice use SnS.

Since the astral cameras are ridiculously hard to use for a mundane, you are right.

It's just take out the enemy's most dangerous weapons first. Even without an opposing mage this is sensible. If there is no mage, go for the troll with the Panther first.

Mind probe and thaugh control are limited in places. You need a way to find out who to probe and you have to sutain the spell per vicim and take a heavy drain with thought crontrol or just command a group (with a higher drain) to all do the same. The thing is NPCs can cast um on the PC for the same of FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU---- results. Counter spelling and or mysitial guad are the best defence for all magic bar leaving for high earth orbit.

I just noticed the general rules text for mental manipulation spells.

What a HUGE nerf on the way I had been playing it! The spells only being able to last a small number of seconds really limits their non-combat utility. Still, control thoughts is pretty irrefutably balanced. It is only useful in certain situations.

One net hit pushes "I win" every time.

Force 10 Stun Bolt does the same thing with one net hit and (afaik) a lot less drain.

If it's a Missions game, the GM's options are more limited.



-k

This is what I was thinking.

In RPGs it is usually more easy to stun someone then kill them, and it is more easy to kill them then control them.

You could consider adding situational Threshold depending on how big a thing is being asked for, how big a deviation the replacement thought is. That the 1 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) script you just passed the target is a 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (hello Firestarter, no mod required) not as big a deal as "not only will you be fine if you step off the roof of this 100 story building, it is really the answer to all your dreams". (I don't know, maybe a +4 Threshold?, adding +4 is going to make it an Edge spending stretch for a lot of mages)

Coupled with it's time limit, and other limitations inherent with being a spell, that I suspect puts it firmly [back] into not risking being so effective that it drags the game down by the mage reaching for it first every time. It is also likely to encourage some creative thought in how to apply it, so even when used there is some variation in description from the player ("you are surrounded, throw you weapons down" "again? *yawn* +2 Threshold" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ).

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