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LukeZ
One hit (for an unopposed roll) is sufficient to cast this spell and make the target do whatever the caster wants?
Dakka Dakka
One net hit, is enough. That it is indeed an opposed roll is in the introduction to manipulation spells.
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 210')
Mental Manipulations: For Mental Manipulation spells, the caster makes an Opposed Spellcasting + Magic Test against the target’s Willpower (+ Counterspelling, if available). If the caster scores more hits, she controls the target as noted in the spell description. Every (Force) Combat Turns, the victim may spend a Complex Action to shake off the mental control. The victim rolls a Willpower (+ Counterspelling) Test; each hit reduces the net hits on the caster’s original Spellcasting Test. If the spellcaster’s net hits are reduced to 0, the spell no longer affects the target.
LukeZ
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 4 2010, 01:51 PM) *
One net hit, is enough. That it is indeed an opposed roll is in the introduction to manipulation spells.


Acc... missed the generic rule for all the Manipulation spells. Still a powerful spell!

Thank you!
Summerstorm
Yeah, it is. In third edition you at least had a chance to withstand with high willpower. (But if you failed... you were controlled as long as the mage sustained *g*).

But control spells are always pretty heavy. Good thing they at least have a nice drain.
Prime Mover
Once again reinforcing that old adage. Geek the mage first!
Neraph
Doesn't help when the mage makes you think the troll tank is the mage...
Dakka Dakka
That's why my mages don't run around in robes and carry assault rifles on runs.
Semerkhet
At the most recent GenCon I was in a Missions game that had two magicians in the group. The solution to nearly every obstacle or problem we encountered from Legwork to Combat was either Mind Probe or Control Thoughts. The two magicians weren't doing anything wrong, mind you. They were working with their chosen tools to accomplish the team goals and perfectly within the rules. The two magician players were probably having fun but the guy who brought the 'face' character was not. I also couldn't help but notice that the two magicians were using the mental manipulations as a sort of crutch. They made little use of spirits or astral projection or any other spells, for that matter.

I'm trying to keep from accusing them of "wrong bad fun" but I can't help but think the game would have been more fun for everyone if those two spells hadn't existed. Certainly in a convention game where people bring their own characters and play with people they don't know it is easy to have problems with team composition and preferred modus operandi. I took that convention session as a reminder that a GM must be careful when allowing those spells and must make sure that the whole group is on board for the sort of game where use of mental manipulation spells is commonplace. It also made me grateful to the mage in my game who chose not to take mental manipulations but is still the most useful and versatile character in the game.

Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Oct 4 2010, 07:29 PM) *
At the most recent GenCon I was in a Missions game that had two magicians in the group. The solution to nearly every obstacle or problem we encountered from Legwork to Combat was either Mind Probe or Control Thoughts. The two magicians weren't doing anything wrong, mind you. They were working with their chosen tools to accomplish the team goals and perfectly within the rules. The two magician players were probably having fun but the guy who brought the 'face' character was not. I also couldn't help but notice that the two magicians were using the mental manipulations as a sort of crutch. They made little use of spirits or astral projection or any other spells, for that matter.
Well this is the GM's fault, if those two constantly use manipulation magic and always get away with it. There are people with high willpower and those that take precautions against mindraping mages. Not to mention that they leave quite a few traces.
WyldKnight
Couldn't these spells be evened out just by boosting the resistance test? Like willpower x 2 instead of just will?
Karoline
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 4 2010, 01:08 PM) *
Well this is the GM's fault, if those two constantly use manipulation magic and always get away with it. There are people with high willpower and those that take precautions against mindraping mages. Not to mention that they leave quite a few traces.

Too bad even a willpower of 6 or 7 still isn't enough to help any, and there is basically no way to 'take precautions against mindraping mages' because there is nothing that can prevent magic except for other magic. So, you quickly have to have every person in the world walking around with their own personal counterspelling mage to prevent this, which is fairly silly.

Adages like 'geek the mage' are fairly pointless, because it is more or less impossible to tell who a mage is in any group until they start casting spells, and even then it is difficult. And personally I don't think a 'geek the mage' rule is anything remotely approaching balance. In fact, I think it points out that balance does not exist when one archetype is so powerful that it is universally accepted that you should kill it first because it is so powerful.

It's like saying Mr. Manhattan isn't overpowered because everyone knows he is overpowered.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 4 2010, 09:19 PM) *
Too bad even a willpower of 6 or 7 still isn't enough to help any, and there is basically no way to 'take precautions against mindraping mages' because there is nothing that can prevent magic except for other magic. So, you quickly have to have every person in the world walking around with their own personal counterspelling mage to prevent this, which is fairly silly.
Spells of reasonable force (5) are mechanically blatantly obvious, even though the fluff says otherwise. Anyone who is expecting trouble can just give a warning that casting will not be tolerated and then shoot/subdue any mage as soon as they start casting (that's what delaying an action is for). Even if that does not work, the mage leaves his signature behind unless he thinks to erase it. A pissed off NPC has every right to hunt the offending mage down.
I'm against blanketing the game world with Background Count, but a crafty NPC who expect the mages he meets to do funny stuff, may specificlaay call for a meeting in moderate to high BC.
Then there are the problems with the two spells in question:
- The target of a mind probe is aware of the probing and can do whatever he wants, while being read.
- Nowhere does it says what the target of Control thoughts can do when he is not under orders. Especially in the time between the casting and the first opportunity for the mage to formulate an order.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 4 2010, 09:19 PM) *
Adages like 'geek the mage' are fairly pointless, because it is more or less impossible to tell who a mage is in any group until they start casting spells, and even then it is difficult. And personally I don't think a 'geek the mage' rule is anything remotely approaching balance. In fact, I think it points out that balance does not exist when one archetype is so powerful that it is universally accepted that you should kill it first because it is so powerful.
It's just a common phrase, not a balancing tool.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 4 2010, 09:19 PM) *
It's like saying Mr. Manhattan isn't overpowered because everyone knows he is overpowered.
Who's that?
Garou
I don't think that spell is particularly overpowered.

You are forgetting that issuing orders with control thoughts is a simple action. And that Force limits the Net hits on the test, even with the use of edge.
If a mage tries to use control throughts with a street samurai, or even with a small group he can be in quite a bit of trouble. If Force is 5+ everyone will notice they are being enchanted (as per Noticing Magic Rules), and as they have not been issued orders yet, the may act freely. And then they will probably pump the mage with a LOT of flying lead. That is particularly true for groups of enemies. And if them mage does NOT have multiple IPs ready, he can be even be dropped before he can act on it.

He might call it on a lesser Force, but as force limts net hits, it will result in a spell that will be quite easy to resist in the end.

Dakka Dakka
Force limits hits, not net hits. Edge dice can exceed this maximum. Otherwise you are correct.
Karoline
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 4 2010, 04:54 PM) *
Spells of reasonable force (5) are mechanically blatantly obvious, even though the fluff says otherwise. Anyone who is expecting trouble can just give a warning that casting will not be tolerated and then shoot/subdue any mage as soon as they start casting (that's what delaying an action is for). Even if that does not work, the mage leaves his signature behind unless he thinks to erase it. A pissed off NPC has every right to hunt the offending mage down.
I'm against blanketing the game world with Background Count, but a crafty NPC who expect the mages he meets to do funny stuff, may specificlaay call for a meeting in moderate to high BC.
Then there are the problems with the two spells in question:
- The target of a mind probe is aware of the probing and can do whatever he wants, while being read.
- Nowhere does it says what the target of Control thoughts can do when he is not under orders. Especially in the time between the casting and the first opportunity for the mage to formulate an order.

I don't have much of a problem with mind probe for exactly that reason, I'm thinking more control thoughts.
QUOTE
h e caster seizes control of the target’s mind, directing ev-
erything the target does.
So, if the caster doesn't direct it, the target doesn't do it.

And who really cares if the person gives a warning when the mage just mind controls the person and/or their entire group? "Oh, don't mind control me or I'm going to be mad, but not able to actually do anything about it."

You are right though, RAW makes it stupidly easy to notice spellcasters, even if you remember to add all the proper perception modifiers. As for leaving a signature, once again, "Magic must defeat magic."
QUOTE
It's just a common phrase, not a balancing tool.

And yet whenever someone mentions that mages are too powerful, the first counter argument is always "Well, that's why you geek the mage first." So yeah, it is being used as a balancing tool, even if not intentionally.
QUOTE
Who's that?

From the comic book/movie Watchmen. Basically all superheros in the book are limited to 'a bit stronger/faster than normal', kind of like batman. And then Mr. Manhatten is a super being that can see into the future, teleport instantly, doesn't breath or age, can't die, can rip people's molecules apart with a thought, create clones of himself, warp physics, create mater, and basically make superman look like a total weakling chump.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 5 2010, 12:14 AM) *
And who really cares if the person gives a warning when the mage just mind controls the person and/or their entire group? "Oh, don't mind control me or I'm going to be mad, but not able to actually do anything about it."
Hmm have a drone constantly analyze your surroundings. If it detects magic use (Or SR4A's stupid sparkles) have it flood the room with a toxin you are immune to, or simply shoot anyone but you and your associates. If you're nice use SnS.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 5 2010, 12:14 AM) *
You are right though, RAW makes it stupidly easy to notice spellcasters, even if you remember to add all the proper perception modifiers. As for leaving a signature, once again, "Magic must defeat magic."
Since the astral cameras are ridiculously hard to use for a mundane, you are right.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 5 2010, 12:14 AM) *
And yet whenever someone mentions that mages are too powerful, the first counter argument is always "Well, that's why you geek the mage first." So yeah, it is being used as a balancing tool, even if not intentionally.
It's just take out the enemy's most dangerous weapons first. Even without an opposing mage this is sensible. If there is no mage, go for the troll with the Panther first.
Dumori
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 4 2010, 07:08 PM) *
Well this is the GM's fault, if those two constantly use manipulation magic and always get away with it. There are people with high willpower and those that take precautions against mindraping mages. Not to mention that they leave quite a few traces.

Mind probe and thaugh control are limited in places. You need a way to find out who to probe and you have to sutain the spell per vicim and take a heavy drain with thought crontrol or just command a group (with a higher drain) to all do the same. The thing is NPCs can cast um on the PC for the same of FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU---- results. Counter spelling and or mysitial guad are the best defence for all magic bar leaving for high earth orbit.
Neurosis
I just noticed the general rules text for mental manipulation spells.

What a HUGE nerf on the way I had been playing it! The spells only being able to last a small number of seconds really limits their non-combat utility. Still, control thoughts is pretty irrefutably balanced. It is only useful in certain situations.
kzt
QUOTE (LukeZ @ Oct 4 2010, 07:34 AM) *
One hit (for an unopposed roll) is sufficient to cast this spell and make the target do whatever the caster wants?

One net hit pushes "I win" every time.
Neurosis
Force 10 Stun Bolt does the same thing with one net hit and (afaik) a lot less drain.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 4 2010, 01:08 PM) *
Well this is the GM's fault, if those two constantly use manipulation magic and always get away with it. There are people with high willpower and those that take precautions against mindraping mages. Not to mention that they leave quite a few traces.


If it's a Missions game, the GM's options are more limited.



-k
Badmoodguy88
QUOTE
Force 10 Stun Bolt does the same thing with one net hit and (afaik) a lot less drain.


This is what I was thinking.

In RPGs it is usually more easy to stun someone then kill them, and it is more easy to kill them then control them.
Dwight
QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Oct 4 2010, 12:03 PM) *
Couldn't these spells be evened out just by boosting the resistance test? Like willpower x 2 instead of just will?

You could consider adding situational Threshold depending on how big a thing is being asked for, how big a deviation the replacement thought is. That the 1 nuyen.gif script you just passed the target is a 100 nuyen.gif (hello Firestarter, no mod required) not as big a deal as "not only will you be fine if you step off the roof of this 100 story building, it is really the answer to all your dreams". (I don't know, maybe a +4 Threshold?, adding +4 is going to make it an Edge spending stretch for a lot of mages)

Coupled with it's time limit, and other limitations inherent with being a spell, that I suspect puts it firmly [back] into not risking being so effective that it drags the game down by the mage reaching for it first every time. It is also likely to encourage some creative thought in how to apply it, so even when used there is some variation in description from the player ("you are surrounded, throw you weapons down" "again? *yawn* +2 Threshold" nyahnyah.gif ).
Dwight
<...rounding second, for a...>
Dwight
<stand up triple!>
Lansdren
All mental manipulation spells need to be looked at in context. On first read they do look terribly powerful but they arnt always


Take a average goon with Willpower 3
And a above average but not min maxed Mage Magic 5 Spellcasting 5

Mage casts F5 control thoughts rolls four hits (being nice with the average)
Goon resists with W3 and gets 1 hit

Overal Mage wins with three net hits

Now it looks like the mage has alot of power here but statistically his control will be broken within 30 - 45 seconds and he still has to take drain on this.

In combat I would say a manaball spell will be more effective and out of combat the control is limited and noticable.

edit for bad math
Semerkhet
Couple thoughts:

-30-45 seconds in combat is an eternity, so that's not really a drawback if the magician in question decides Control Thoughts is his spell of choice in combat.

-I agree that other spells take out the opposition as quickly and with less drain. This is part of the reason I posted what I did questioning the wisdom of using Control Thoughts as the default combat option.

-The magician in my group has Magic 7 and Spellcasting 5 with a Rating 4 Power Focus and Centering to help with Drain. We've been playing for over a year, so this isn't outlandish. He doesn't have Control Thoughts but if he did, woe unto the mundane trying to resist it without Counterspelling. Even with Counterspelling, let's say Willpower 5 plus Counterspelling 5, the magician is going to get 2 net hits on average. It's not a sure thing but it is a pretty good bet.

-Regarding the noticing spellcasting thing: The disconnect between the fluff and the rule is so blatant that we house-ruled it to be Threshold 10-Force. YMMV, of course. Even by RAW, once combat has started I doubt anyone is holding their action waiting to identify the opposing magician, if there is one. The casting is basically instant and I agree with the interpretation that once under the Control Thoughts spell the target is basically a puppet. If the spell's name was "Suggest Thoughts" or "Influence Thoughts" I'd say there would still be room for independent action.

Anyway, I've never been arguing that Control Thoughts or Mind Probe totally break the game. I am stating my opinion that in a system full of possible abuses, those two spells have more than the usual amount of potential to reduce fun. Caveat emptor and all that.

I'll go back to my original point, which is context matters. I am more firmly of the opinion that Mental Manipulations are definitely a bad idea for convention games with strangers. In my case, the GM was unfamiliar with the scenario and was barely keeping up with the plot. That left zero CPU cycles to come up with strategies to deal with a couple of players who were going to try to solve everything with Mental Manipulation.
Ghremdal
I found it a ok but not too good of a spell.

I just added a further stipulation, that for suicidal or harmful acts the subject gets another willpower(+counterspelling) roll to resist free.
AppliedCheese
Also, given there's a pretty big social fear of "the evil mind controlling mages", even after corp sec and Mr. J feed that through the reality filter, they are likely to take precautions.

No Mr. J is going to meet a group with a mage, especially not a known mental mage, without someone in overwatch. And he'll probably say up front that any attempt to go astrally active duriong negotiations will lead to termination of the offer, and possibly the group. A simple glo-wand and eye/ear recording unit linked to a partner could guarantee these conditions were met.

Corp sec doesn't wander about alone, and almost certainly have their own glo wands. If Security Guard Bob starts acting unusual after the loud beep, then security guard Harry is going to have some training as to why that might be happening.

As for combat...mages are worth, by the book, literally millions of nuyen. Low level corp mages pull down 6 figures. They are publicly appealing in entertainment, and scary up close. The moment a mage takes part in a run and lifts a finger astrally, not only is corp response going to shoot to somewhere between "serious' and "kill it, kill it with FIRE!", but the corp now has a substantial motive to track the shadow runners. Kill his group, lean on him, you just saved yourself maybe 20M nuyen over a career...The Star/KE get a big PR bonus for apprehending an officially 'scary mother-shutyourmouth"...and someone is going to be able to license the made-for-tri-d movie. In comparison, a non-mage is just another thug shadowrunner. Hell, everyone knows even two-bit gangers have chrome.

Now, naturally, not every mage deserves "the hammer form on high", but someone who fills the public's worst fears of invading your mind, and has proven how dangerous they are to a corp by pretty much bypassing everything by turning your own people against you...and does it consistently to the point of being an MO? Corps may not hold vendettas, but they damn sure are going to consider the cost/benefit/risk analysis of letting a competent mental mage who has worked against them live.
Godwyn
QUOTE (AppliedCheese @ Oct 5 2010, 07:51 PM) *
Now, naturally, not every mage deserves "the hammer form on high", but someone who fills the public's worst fears of invading your mind, and has proven how dangerous they are to a corp by pretty much bypassing everything by turning your own people against you...and does it consistently to the point of being an MO? Corps may not hold vendettas, but they damn sure are going to consider the cost/benefit/risk analysis of letting a competent mental mage who has worked against them live.


This. Also, don't forget the role of mechanical security. A security network with a competent spider is going to notice Bob leaving his post with this stranger and escorting him through secure checkpoints into the bowels of the facility; or the cameras by the security door recording the mage ordering Bob to open the security door.
KarmaInferno
I would hazard a guess that a runner known for using a lot of Mind Control stuff will rack up Notoriety points pretty damn fast.



-k
kzt
As opposed to using force 9 powerballs?
Summerstorm
Or burning the flesh off of people with a lightnova spell? I mean if it really comes down to it... i would rather be mindcontroled, open the door and lose my job than waking in a burn ward... and THEN lose my job.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Oct 6 2010, 01:37 AM) *
Or burning the flesh off of people with a lightnova spell? I mean if it really comes down to it... i would rather be mindcontroled, open the door and lose my job than waking in a burn ward... and THEN lose my job.

If you observe American media in the form of horror movies, fiction, etc I think you'll find that the idea of having your mind taken over or ransacked or being a helpless prisoner in your own body touches a much deeper place of fear in the human psyche than simple violent death. I agree that killing people with magic will get you a reputation no matter what, but I still believe that the magician notorious for mental manipulation will be much more quickly thrown into the "evil" category than one who makes his/her victims head asplode with Mana Bolt.
Lansdren
In a world where tazers can be bought with no checks and if your not armed in some neighbourhoods your mad, casual vilolence is the norm even messy flashy death is but death and seen in better then technocolour on the trids every night.
The fear of something attacking the core of yourself, the mind is hightened. Fluff backs this up particually the peoples fear of manipulation spells in the first few bits of street magic.
Neurosis
QUOTE
-Regarding the noticing spellcasting thing: The disconnect between the fluff and the rule is so blatant that we house-ruled it to be Threshold 10-Force. YMMV, of course.


I basically approve of this fix.

And on the main subject:

Seriously, Control Thoughts just ain't that good. It doesn't work as a combat spell because the drain is too high and the effect is too slow (you need to take a separate turn to command them). It doesn't work outside of combat because random Willpower 3 mook can break it in approximately 30 seconds, and Influence is better for long-term stuff. (Influence is otherwise so weak I gotta assume it bypasses that 30-45 second limit.) The only time that Control Thoughts is really good is a situation where you ARE in combat and there is one specific enemy so overwhelmingly powerful that turning him against your foes is more efficient than simply dropping him with your favorite 'bolt. And EVEN THEN, the odds are that the powerful enemy you want to make your new friend has better-than-decent Willpower or Counterspelling on his side. And you have to soak extra drain and deal with the -2 from sustaining a spell.

In summation: Control Thoughts ain't broke, don't fix it.
Neraph
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 4 2010, 01:19 PM) *
Too bad even a willpower of 6 or 7 still isn't enough to help any, and there is basically no way to 'take precautions against mindraping mages' because there is nothing that can prevent magic except for other magic. So, you quickly have to have every person in the world walking around with their own personal counterspelling mage to prevent this, which is fairly silly.

There's a growing market for a semi-Awakened creature called the Iguana Magica, but the street name of Ysalamir has been adopted. Use the attributes for a cobra, but replace Enhanced Senses (Thermal) and Venom (Cobra Venom) with Astral Hazing; and Infiltration and Tracking with Climbing 3. Same cost and availability as a Basilisk.
Dakka Dakka
I propose a different houserule: The threshold is 2*MAG-Force. As such the mage's overall power enters into the equation. Overcasting should generally look more taxing than staying below your Magic.
SR4 however has invented ridiculous sparkles which confound this theory.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Oct 6 2010, 11:16 AM) *
I basically approve of this fix.

And on the main subject:

Seriously, Control Thoughts just ain't that good. It doesn't work as a combat spell because the drain is too high and the effect is too slow (you need to take a separate turn to command them). It doesn't work outside of combat because random Willpower 3 mook can break it in approximately 30 seconds, and Influence is better for long-term stuff. (Influence is otherwise so weak I gotta assume it bypasses that 30-45 second limit.) The only time that Control Thoughts is really good is a situation where you ARE in combat and there is one specific enemy so overwhelmingly powerful that turning him against your foes is more efficient than simply dropping him with your favorite 'bolt. And EVEN THEN, the odds are that the powerful enemy you want to make your new friend has better-than-decent Willpower or Counterspelling on his side. And you have to soak extra drain and deal with the -2 from sustaining a spell.

In summation: Control Thoughts ain't broke, don't fix it.

If we accept the mechanical inferiority argument, what to we have to explain the popularity? Stylistic choice? Getting an escapist thrill from the control issues implied by the use of such magic?
AppliedCheese
To wit on the skin broiling etc, at some point as John Q. Public realizes that whether a criminal knocks people down with a microgrenade cyber arm or burns them with lightning from his hands, the rules and effects are pretty much the same. That guy, over there, can kill you with something most sane citizens don't have. He can do it if he can see you, and "shoot" at you. And if you have the skill and a gun, by god, you can try to swing back.

Unnoticeable mental invasion? Its like being told "not only can they rape you, but there literally zero chance that you can handle them. You can have the best guns, the best training, the most influence, the brightest mind, the faster computer...if you weren't born special, you can be raped at will by the few who were. Have fun." Accurate? Not entirely. Something that will scare the almighty piss out of people and quickly lead to us-them mentality? Yes.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (AppliedCheese @ Oct 6 2010, 08:39 PM) *
Accurate? Not entirely. Something that will scare the almighty piss out of people and quickly lead to us-them mentality? Yes.

QFT.

However, just like most of the changes wrought by the Awakening, if we ran with all the worst case scenarios we'd all be playing post-apocalyptic Shadowrun. Not that it would be a bad game, it just wouldn't be Shadowrun as currently published.

Seriously, if you look at all the crazy shit that happened:
-Not one, but two, major pandemics.
-Not one, but two, major worldwide computer crashes.
-Several variant human races coming out of nowhere, some of whom are eight feet tall and weigh seven hundred pounds.
-Magic, with all the implications including the one quoted above.
-Paracritters. Seriously, the human race has always had a fetish for what might be hiding in the forest. Used to be it was nothing worse than a wolf or mountain lion. Think about the shark scare of the summer of 2001 and then imagine if the ocean actually had megalodons and all the other scary aquatic species in Running Wild.
-The emergence of weakly-godlike AI. That could have been a hard-takeoff Singularity right there.
-Technomancers
-Changelings
-Ancient Powerful Dragons from before The Dawn of Time.

Step back and consider the idea that the Shadowrun world is almost unbelievably optimistic in that there is still a global technological society in place for us to be dystopic anti-heroes in.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Oct 7 2010, 12:04 PM) *
QFT.

However, just like most of the changes wrought by the Awakening, if we ran with all the worst case scenarios we'd all be playing post-apocalyptic Shadowrun. Not that it would be a bad game, it just wouldn't be Shadowrun as currently published.

Seriously, if you look at all the crazy shit that happened:
-Not one, but two, major pandemics.
-Not one, but two, major worldwide computer crashes.
-Several variant human races coming out of nowhere, some of whom are eight feet tall and weigh seven hundred pounds.
-Magic, with all the implications including the one quoted above.
-Paracritters. Seriously, the human race has always had a fetish for what might be hiding in the forest. Used to be it was nothing worse than a wolf or mountain lion. Think about the shark scare of the summer of 2001 and then imagine if the ocean actually had megalodons and all the other scary aquatic species in Running Wild.
-The emergence of weakly-godlike AI. That could have been a hard-takeoff Singularity right there.
-Technomancers
-Changelings
-Ancient Powerful Dragons from before The Dawn of Time.

Step back and consider the idea that the Shadowrun world is almost unbelievably optimistic in that there is still a global technological society in place for us to be dystopic anti-heroes in.


Ironically, it is probably the "evil" megacorps that are largely responsible for keeping humanity from falling apart after all that chaos.

They can move resources to where they are needed like no force in history ever has been capable of. They have the independence to act when they feel like they need to, instead of being bound by external rules.

Sure, they have downright selfish motives, but the net effect is the world not sliding into uncontrolled anarchy.

Because uncontrolled anarchy isn't really all that profitable.*



-k

* - Controlled anarchy can be VERY profitable, but that's another issue.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 7 2010, 11:59 AM) *
Ironically, it is probably the "evil" megacorps that are largely responsible for keeping humanity from falling apart after all that chaos.

I like the way you think. wink.gif

QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 7 2010, 11:59 AM) *
* - Controlled anarchy can be VERY profitable, but that's another issue.


I'm currently reading a book that speaks to this precise point. It's called "Market Forces" by Richard K. Morgan, best know for his excellent novel "Altered Carbon." It's set in about 2050 and the main character works for the "Conflict Investment" division of a huge corporation. Basically they invest in dictators and revolutionaries around the world, supply them with weapons and take a cut of GDP for their trouble. Sort of like what the CIA has tried to do over the decades, only for profit and with a bit more efficiency. Oh, and did I mention that up and coming junior execs auto-duel for promotions? Certainly not Mr. Morgan's best work, imo, but pretty interesting as an anti-globalization thought experiment.

/end totally off-topic diversion
Neurosis
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Oct 6 2010, 12:33 PM) *
If we accept the mechanical inferiority argument, what to we have to explain the popularity? Stylistic choice? Getting an escapist thrill from the control issues implied by the use of such magic?


Well tbh the reason my table liked it so much is because we did not realize, until recently, that it was mechanically inferior (see above).

But I do have a thing for mind control in general, on a flavor level.

QUOTE
Unnoticeable mental invasion? Its like being told "not only can they rape you, but there literally zero chance that you can handle them. You can have the best guns, the best training, the most influence, the brightest mind, the faster computer...if you weren't born special, you can be raped at will by the few who were. Have fun." Accurate? Not entirely. Something that will scare the almighty piss out of people and quickly lead to us-them mentality? Yes.


By RAW, it is unfortunately SUPER noticeable.

Also, stunbolt can let someone 'rape' you (figuratively literally) for less drain and once again, your guns don't help. The people with the brightest minds and the most influence don't get within LOS of spellcasters without a mage of their own to counterspell for them anyway.

Also also, if you use simsense at all, in any way, can't a hacker theoretically do the same thing without even needing LOS?
KarmaInferno
We're not talking actual mechanical rules advantage.

We're talking about the psychological effect mind invasion has as opposed to "merely" being burned or blasted.

And yes, hackers that do silent equipment takeovers should probably be viewed by the public in a similar light, though probably not nearly as severe. Someone taking control of your commlink isn't NEARLY as disturbing as the idea of someone taking over your mind.

Again, it's the IDEA of mind control, not the reality, that is scary.



-k
Dakka Dakka
Isn't a wageslave with skillwires awfully close to a biodrone?
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Oct 6 2010, 07:50 AM) *
I agree that killing people with magic will get you a reputation no matter what, but I still believe that the magician notorious for mental manipulation will be much more quickly thrown into the "evil" category than one who makes his/her victims head asplode with Mana Bolt.

Really, then why is murder dealt with so much harsher then administering a noxious substance?
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 6 2010, 10:24 AM) *
There's a growing market for a semi-Awakened creature called the Iguana Magica, but the street name of Ysalamir has been adopted. Use the attributes for a cobra, but replace Enhanced Senses (Thermal) and Venom (Cobra Venom) with Astral Hazing; and Infiltration and Tracking with Climbing 3. Same cost and availability as a Basilisk.

So now everyone is walking around with a ward destroying pet? Wow, I'm guessing all those shop keepers who paid all that money for the wards in their stores are going to be pissed your pet lizard just ate them.
djinni
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 7 2010, 06:22 PM) *
Again, it's the IDEA of mind control, not the reality, that is scary.

Perhaps I missed it, but everyone here is glossing over the relative issue on "mind control" just like is touched upon in the quote
its not that YOU can be taken over and controlled, its that ANYONE can be.
the fear is not that you are assaulted in your mind the fear is that you are not safe, you can't trust your spouse etc...
she did something quirky, did that serial murderer we heard about on TV get to her?
he didn't come home til late did the mind control mage make him do horrible things?
its the point not that you are combating an opponent that can invade your thoughts, but that you are combating an opponent that can invade your trusted allies thought.
because you won't know until its too late, you won't know until you let your guard down and the puppet master makes your loved one strike from harmless to murderer
Mordinvan
QUOTE (djinni @ Oct 7 2010, 05:28 PM) *
Perhaps I missed it, but everyone here is glossing over the relative issue on "mind control" just like is touched upon in the quote
its not that YOU can be taken over and controlled, its that ANYONE can be.
the fear is not that you are assaulted in your mind the fear is that you are not safe, you can't trust your spouse etc...
she did something quirky, did that serial murderer we heard about on TV get to her?
he didn't come home til late did the mind control mage make him do horrible things?
its the point not that you are combating an opponent that can invade your thoughts, but that you are combating an opponent that can invade your trusted allies thought.
because you won't know until its too late, you won't know until you let your guard down and the puppet master makes your loved one strike from harmless to murderer

Yep that make mage him a whole 30-40 seconds late.....
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