Huh, with 18 dice on avarage you get 6 successes every single time.

Not every single. It's true that 6 successes is going to be the average, but it's by no means a guarantee.

OK, then. By the rules, how is this supposed to be accomplished? Where does it say that a sustained spell leaves an astral trail? The link is between you and your active spell, IIRC, there is no specific rule that allows for what you are suggesting. I can't really think of any way to do that unless you keep casting a spell every so often to leave an astral signature.

You cast a sustained spell at a target on the desired location, then you find your way back to your body and retrace your steps while astrally perceiving. This ariadne's thread works in both ways though. You could also just leave a spirit there,k then you don't have the problem of finding a suitable spell.

What exactly is the problem being solved here? Use a MapSoft.

It's not that hard if you apply yourself.




Apparently I've always missed that underlined part there. Oh, and underlined emphasis mine.

It's never come up in my games, but that's still good information to know. Thinking it how I thought it made cleaning the signature of sustained spells seem... strange.

Care to elaborate?
I can get 20+ dice for one category or 18 to 3 categories at chargen, but you cant get 18+ for all categories.

Yeah, would really suck for mages if their sustained spells left trails like that. They'd have to walk back through any facility they broke into and erase their improved invisibility or whatever else trail.

What you can do though is either have another corp mage use the tracking mage's signature to track them (Which can be done in the meat, just need to precieve), or have the tracking mage cast a spell at every corner they take and have the second mage lead a team based on the markers. Second method would be quicker, but more prone to missing turns.

Most simply (and I'd do it differently and more effectively myself):
Magic 6
Spellcasting 6
F6 Bound Spirit's Aid Spellcasting

With a Charisma of 5 you can have one spirit bound per spirit type. Slightly in-game you can Long Term Bind them to Aid Spellcasting - barring that you can just keep re-binding. Heck, after that you can add a Power Focus R2, still in chargen, and end with 20 dice to all spellcasting. With Mentor and Specialization you can get 24 in one school. If you go for Spellcasting Foci instead of Power (and stack up the foci) you can get one extra die in each "school."

So, in essence, it's actually quite easy to get 21 dice for all categories, and up to 25 for one.

Heck, and that's before factoring in things like the Infected (normal Essence Drain allows for a starting Magic of 8, meaning an extra 2 dice to the aforementioned Test, and Nosferatu have a yeild of 11, meaning an extra five dice above the 21-25 stated) and Magic Pacts (which are, in theory, infinite. It's altogether possible [not saying that it'd ever see gameplay, just possible in the realm of theory] to have a F30 spirit with only a 1 Edge. That's 5 BP/10 Karma to have +15 magic once per day. In theory. More realistically, 15 BP/30 Karma for +3 [F6 Spirit] 1/day).

And I have more tricks than that.

Infected have a starting essence of 5, so they're going to have a maximum starting magic of 5. They don't get to pull an essence drain before play starts.

Ok. And the opening scene is me either:
1) Hooker Jumping, taking 1 Essence from each so none die.
2) Homeless Jumping, killing the SINless off to feed my hunger.

So chargen + 30 seconds or less of in-game I'm at Magic 8 or Magic 11, depending on strain.

Otherwise it's 1 die less than what I've stated, which is still higher than he though I could get.

Seriously, the littlest mistype around here gets you crucified.

Totally forgot about aid spellcasting, but that does limit you to force 6 spells.

You say "limit," I hear "Edge."

EDIT: Which, incidentally, would also either (admittedly very infrequently):
1) Increase the original dicepool by adding directly to it.
2) Reroll failed successes, which very well may give you more successes than #1.

Well that allows more successes, but still doesn't let you cast spells over force 6, just saying for those times where the force matters.

It's too bad that magic doesn't change directly with essence increases, isn't it? I don't care how much you increase your essence, your magic will remain where it was, unless you're also saying that you start play with enough karma to raise your magic from 5 to 11.

Now, you could increase your essence, and then burn it to temporarily increase your magic, but that doesn't sound like what you're suggesting at all.

Eh, and we were talking about high dicepool, not high dicepool and high Force.

You can have two of the following: Cheap, Good, and Fast. I gave you Fast and Good. If an Infected using the same or similar methods sees any actual game time to get Essence up it improves dramatically.

It also really, really depends on your table. If all spirits over F4 use Edge to resist summoning (like on some tables) then that's going to change things - subtly, if nothing else. If, on the other hand, your GM would allow you to get a Magic Pact with a F40 Spirit for 5 BP, you can seriously, seriously abuse that.

And yes, no GM in their right (or left) mind would allow a 5 BP Magic Pact with a F40 spirit. Just as an example of the two different extremes of leniency.

EDIT: Heck, getting a Nosferatu to his Magic 11 (Magic 5 Essence Drain 6, admittedly does require some gameplay) and with an Aptitude Spellcasting of 7 gets you your 18 dicepool right there. Then we can tack on some of those other dicepool bonuses.

Especially since each level of the pack is a point of edge for the spirit, and for all (non-PC, PC are debated hotly) spirits, edge=force.


Well sure, given 30+35+40+45+50+55= 255 karma I'm sure any mage could be a badass, infected or not.

1) Uhh... Free Spirits have an Edge based on a Test, which means, since it's random, it's theoretically possible for there to be a Force 10,000 spirit with an Edge of 1. Like he needs any Edge at that point.

2) Are you meaning that their Essence Drain power gives them effectively 255 karma? Or do you not know how Essence Drain works? In the former, I agree it's amazing. In the latter, please read your books.

Really? I've never noticed this rule. I could have overlooked it, as free spirits aren't my best subject.

No, I'm meaning that essence drain doesn't increase your magic. You're the one that needs to read your books.

Edit: Ah, you are right about the free spirits, though by the nature of the test, it becomes increasingly unlikely for the spirit to have 1 edge as their force goes up.

This reminds me, why no GM in his or her right mind would allow infected.
First of all the rules are broken
Second every player wants to have the benifits but they will start crying if the drawback come up. (like getting killed, when entering a AAA district)

Back to the bottom line:
You can't say much about balance, because every group has their own "context" of the rules.
While in the first group a Powerfocus 4 is never to be seen, it is regularly uses in the second group.

You can use some of the Essence drained to boost your Attributes. AFB for the moment so I can't check if you can do that to temporarily boost your Magic.

SR4A P295

so yes, you can boost your magic, for 12 hours, once every month if you're a regular essence draining critter, or once every 6 months if you're a nosferatu.

It's a pretty limited effect. Thank god.

So I have a question.

I'm a Vampire.

I was at essence 11, and I drained 1 point of essence from my sleaze du jour.

How many points can I spend to raise attributes?

Nothink stops you from draining essence every 12h to permanetly keep your magic boosted, well not in the rules anyway

Right. It's just that every month for vampires (and their ilk) and every 6 months for Nosferatu they automatically lose one point of Essence, which they can drain back in less than an hour.


I was going to go off on you for a bit there but then the second half of your statement exactly counters the first. Apparently in your groups Infected are the R4 Power Focus.

As many as you want. As long as you drained Essence in the last hour you can spend it as per the rules. It's a bit wacky like that.

Yes, I said that, but I was saying that having a magic of 5 and using the temporary boost to increase your magic to 11 is different from having a magic of 11. I just wanted to clarify that he was talking about the boost, and not running on some kind of assumption that it was an automatic improvement.

Fair enough, but my Infected always eat their "breakfast" and "dinner."

@Neraph
Where would you contradict?
That the rules for infected are broken and do not fit into the rest of the rules? (For crying out loud they have their own rules for Magic loss)

Or that human society would react violently "things" which consider them "prey"?

Just like the zombie/ghoul apocalypse.... Human rights for walking, cannibal plague carriers? Ya right.

I don't know what you're asking me. Your sentences don't make sense.

1) What?

2) They have their own rules for Magic loss because their Essence is not fixed. That causes problems so they have to have their own rules. AIs have their own rules for jumping in to drones and drakes are immune to HMHVV, but you're not complaining about them. And heck - there's Free Spirit PCs. That's a massive can-o-worms.

3) I never claimed they wouldn't be reacted to violently so this sentence really doesn't make sense to me.

I'm pretty sure that's not right Neraph.
I seem to remember (AFB) that only half the essence drained can be used for the boost and that only essence drained in the last hour can be used in such a way. This created a big issue for me in that vampires woud get full up pretty quickly and be sat around for months and months before they could achieve another boost.

It was discussed in the 'Sated vampires' topic (sorry, haven't figured out DS-linking yet) and Muspellsheimr divulged a really good house rule for the power.

Aerospider is correct. Once again Neraph, you're ignoring crucial bits of the actual rules, then telling other people they're not reading the book:





So, even if your GM allows you to start your game with you inexplicably assaulting and dumping a half-dozen prostitutes in a Z-Zone, you're using all six of those points to increase your Magic by 3. Except you LOSE those extra Essence points, and there's nothing here that says this boost contradicts the usual Essence > Magic rules. So, okay, you drain 6 Essence, boost it up to 12, then use all 6 drained points to go back to Essence 6, unless you're starting at Magic 3, you're not boosting nothin'. So if you're starting with Essence 6, Magic 6, 6 points of drained essence (each point taking 1-2 minutes on average to drain from a probably-unwilling, uncooperative victim) you could boost up to Essence 12, use 4 points to increase your Magic to 8, keeping Essence at 8. Still a pretty powerful buff, but it comes with consequences.

If you want to keep this Ess 8/Mag 8 thing up for very long, you run into a problem. 12 hours later you're back needing more victims. I don't care how deep you are in the Z-Zones, leave a trail of that many messed-up prostitutes or blood-drained corpses for a two-die bump and you've got the Star on your tail. Not to mention it's unprofessional; most runner groups are going to leave you in front of a precinct house with a bullet in your head and a "you're welcome" sign on your chest before you lead the authorities to the rest of them.

Im not sure if Neraph right about his point, but your severly missunderstanding the rules.
You drain 6(12 if your nostrefatu) essence, then you can use those 6(12) points to boost your magic by 3(6) for 12h afterwhich half of that essence is lost.

I did miss the "half" part, my bad - so you can use 6 essence to boost by 3, keeping 3 extra Essence and going up to 9 rather than 8. Understood. The "half the Essence points are lost" thing doesn't look 12 hours delayed to me, though - to my reading that Essence loss is immediate at the time of the boost, and THEN the boost is lost 12 hours later. The nosferatu thing - I had missed the triple-Essence exception they get. I tell ya, anyone playing one of those in my game would be held pretty sharply to their megalomanical tendencies to balance out how ridiculously powerful they can get.

Yes, but it doesn't sound as if you can start at Essence 11, drain 1, and then spend 6. Interpreting that way seems like a deliberate 'err on the side of power' issue. As always, the language is not unambiguous, but "a critter that has drained Essence within the past hour can siphon the stolen life force into other attributes," seems more likely to be talking about the same batch of Essence: the fresh stuff.

It makes less sense that you can carry around a bunch of 'old' Essence that you can't use, until draining a tiny bit unlocks all of it. It's not impossible, but it's more complicated and less direct.

well the entire essence drain/use thing makes no sense.
It also makes no sense that if you haven't freshly fed, then you're 'stuck' for a while. And eventually you get stuck for a long time.

Eventually your vampire is at 12 essence, and has to wait 2 months before he has lost 2 essence, just to spend it.
He would basically be active for a couple of weeks every year or two.

Yeah, we were talking about that last time. It's almost as if they evolved to *not* burn through all their Essence all the time. I'm fine with the setup that the main function is to keep you alive, and there's a secondary ability to 'burn' fresh Essence only. It's supposed to be a little buff, not your primary mode of operation.

If this were a Vampire game (WOD), there'd obvious be a lot more 'Essence economy' options, probably special Adept powers, some metamagics, etc. Could be a fun variant to play with.

....

Please read my signature.

Now, understand that what I said ("As long as you drained Essence in the last hour you can spend it as per the rules.") is exactly what you quoted from the rulebooks.

Can you show me where it states you need to completely drain the target of all blood in order to drain Essence? Can you show me where it says you have to "mess-up" people? Have you read the Dresden Files? White Court, man.

EDIT: And on the Essence Drain stuff - everything but your starting 5 Essence is "stolen" essence, so you can spend as much as you want as long as you have drained at least 1 point of Essence in the last hour and you never drop yourself down below 5 Essence.

Well, for chargen Infected at least.

I guess your definition of 'messed-up' doesn't include 'at least 16% of life-force stolen'.

Again, it's not clear that's the case, Neraph. It could easily mean only the 'fresh' Essence.

It's actually not that hard. "Stolen life force" means any life force (apparently Essence) that was not yours to begin with. So that means any Essence that isn't yours is stolen life force. Which means, if you start as an Infected, everything but your starting 5 Essence qualifies as "stolen life force."

It's a very literal interpretation, but it's certainly a valid one. And definately the most literal one.

It's an interpretation, yes. As I said. It's equally 'literal', at best, so I wouldn't tout that. It's also the sillier of the two option, because it requires a system in which you have to 'unlock' stored Essence by Draining a little more.

Actually, as a vampire, all of your essence beyond 1 is stolen. Read the rules, you wake up with 1 essence and must 'immediately feed'. This seems to indicate that even that 1 essence is about to go away, so in fact, all of your essence is likely stolen, but at the very least, everything after the 1st essence is stolen.

I'm not a grammar wonder-boy, but "stolen life force" is not the same as "the stolen life force". If I'm not mistaken, the use of the word "the" acts as a pointer in this case, refering to a specific case of "stolen life force" rather then all stolen life force. If read as just "stolen life force" what prevents one from using someone else's stolen life force? It's stolen life force isn't it? No, the word "the" defines "stolen life force" as a specific instance, and context of it's use is typically the most recently used example, in this case the points just taken within the past hour.

I may be wrong, but that's what it says to me.

If you start as a chargen Infected you start with an Essence of 5. That's why I specified.

Right, but that doesn't mean that the other 4 aren't stolen, it just means you start with it. Kind of like just because you start with a 6 magic doesn't mean you're born with a 6 magic.

As for the boosting thing, I've always done it as being able to burn as much essence as you want, so long as you've fed recently. Otherwise you run into, as others have pointed out, a point where you can't use the boost for several months, which is counterintuitive for something that is a self defense mechanism. Unless of course you allow a vampire to temporarily overload their essence for the express purpose of burning.

I think the point there, Karoline, is that *neither* interpretation is a good fix for that. You either have stored Essence you can't use at all, or you have stored Essence you can't use except if you happen to have fed in the last hour? Equally stupid. If we want to solve *that* problem, we need a house rule that lets you burn your Essence when you want.

That's what I'd use personally. Much more Dresden-Files-esque.