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> Type O system Adept, Always thought this was a bad concept but now not so much?
Glyph
post Oct 8 2010, 02:27 AM
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QUOTE (Badmoodguy88 @ Oct 7 2010, 01:57 PM) *
As initiation is cheap(ishy) someone could potentially just initiate a bunch of times and not buy magic right away.

But remember that initiate grade cannot exceed Magic, and if Magic drops below initiate grade, the initiate grade drops, too. I would prefer to keep my Magic at least one or two points over my initiate grade, so I wouldn't be risking losing an initiate grade from something dropping my Magic rating down.

Of course, right after char-gen, if you don't have a lot of implants dropping your Magic back down, you are playing catch-up, so that is when you can get several grades of initiation (in other words, your starting Magic is 5, so you can buy 3 or 4 grades of initiation without risking too much).

Magic is better than initiation, though. For mages, it flat out adds a die to their dice pool, and lets them cast/summon at a higher potential level. For adepts, it not only gives them a power point, but also raises the limit for the rating of their powers. An adept with Magic: 4 and three initiations can still only get his combat sense up to level 4.
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X-Kalibur
post Oct 8 2010, 04:10 PM
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Type O simply should not be compatible with cultured bioware. Looking into the information we see that Type Owen is derived from the man whose system was perfect for making bioware that anyone's body could accept. Now, we already know that cultured bioware has to be grown for the receipient which should already sound the klaxons as to Type O not working with it, this stuff was already NOT cloned from Owen, therefore, no treating it as delta-ware.
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sabs
post Oct 8 2010, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Oct 8 2010, 04:10 PM) *
Type O simply should not be compatible with cultured bioware. Looking into the information we see that Type Owen is derived from the man whose system was perfect for making bioware that anyone's body could accept. Now, we already know that cultured bioware has to be grown for the receipient which should already sound the klaxons as to Type O not working with it, this stuff was already NOT cloned from Owen, therefore, no treating it as delta-ware.


For that matter how does Type-O do anything for Bone Density Augmentation
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Laodicea
post Oct 8 2010, 04:46 PM
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If cultured bioware is grown using the recipients own DNA......what is the difference between basic and delta grades? How is delta better? What is the fluff there?
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sabs
post Oct 8 2010, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE (Laodicea @ Oct 8 2010, 04:46 PM) *
If cultured bioware is grown using the recipients own DNA......what is the difference between basic and delta grades? How is delta better? What is the fluff there?


better growing process, more safety measures, less errors, defects?

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 8 2010, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 8 2010, 09:51 AM) *
better growing process, more safety measures, less errors, defects?


Except that none of that is measured within the game...
The only game difference is that it takes less essence... and costs a lot more...
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sabs
post Oct 8 2010, 05:01 PM
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Because the basic stuff is grown from your DNA but has errors in the growing process.. making it less compatible.

The higher grades have better growing process.
Which is why they cost more, and use up less essence.

We can make any fluff we want for it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

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Laodicea
post Oct 8 2010, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 8 2010, 11:01 AM) *
Because the basic stuff is grown from your DNA but has errors in the growing process.. making it less compatible.

The higher grades have better growing process.
Which is why they cost more, and use up less essence.

We can make any fluff we want for it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Therefore, for "Basic" delta-grade bioware could actually be better than it is. Right? It's delta-grade because it's grown from your own DNA. By making it Omega grade, they remove all the errors and improve the growing process. So, why aren't they doing this?
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 8 2010, 06:01 PM
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They never should have made the cyberware grades work with bioware, but they did, and we're stuck with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It is always a mistake to try to use logic + fluff on the rules.
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sabs
post Oct 8 2010, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (Laodicea @ Oct 8 2010, 05:11 PM) *
Therefore, for "Basic" delta-grade bioware could actually be better than it is. Right? It's delta-grade because it's grown from your own DNA. By making it Omega grade, they remove all the errors and improve the growing process. So, why aren't they doing this?


Maybe they're already doing this which is why you can put someone's organs in your own body without a type-match (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

what doesn't make much sense is alpha and beta bioware.

If I was doing bioware.

I would have:
Basic Bioware, Basic Bioware grown from your own dna/genetic markers (delta)
Cultured Bioware

and that's it. No Alpha, Beta, Delta cultured bioware.
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Dumori
post Oct 8 2010, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 8 2010, 07:01 PM) *
Maybe they're already doing this which is why you can put someone's organs in your own body without a type-match (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

what doesn't make much sense is alpha and beta bioware.

If I was doing bioware.

I would have:
Basic Bioware, Basic Bioware grown from your own dna/genetic markers (delta)
Cultured Bioware

and that's it. No Alpha, Beta, Delta cultured bioware.

But as the rules stand basic cultured ware is counted as delta with type-O.
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Yerameyahu
post Oct 8 2010, 06:26 PM
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'Standard' is the actual grade, though, right? This is a straightforward rules error, and the only reason we know the intended function is because of a dev chat?
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Dumori
post Oct 8 2010, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 8 2010, 07:26 PM) *
'Standard' is the actual grade, though, right? This is a straightforward rules error, and the only reason we know the intended function is because of a dev chat?

More or less but basic and standard have been used interchangeably in places aswell.
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Mäx
post Oct 8 2010, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE (Dumori @ Oct 8 2010, 09:10 PM) *
But as the rules stand basic cultured ware is counted as delta with type-O.

There is no basic cultured ware.
There's basic bioware and there's cultured bioware and both of those have 4 grades standard,alpha,beta and delta.
Type-O system only works for basic bioware.
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Dumori
post Oct 8 2010, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Oct 8 2010, 08:13 PM) *
There is no basic cultured ware.
There's basic bioware and there's cultured bioware and both of those have 4 grades standard,alpha,beta and delta.
Type-O system only works for basic bioware.

Yes but its meant to work for all bio of standard.
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sabs
post Oct 8 2010, 07:38 PM
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QUOTE (Dumori @ Oct 8 2010, 07:31 PM) *
Yes but its meant to work for all bio of standard.


You know this how?
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Mäx
post Oct 8 2010, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 8 2010, 10:38 PM) *
You know this how?

Maybe he's psychic and is reading the writers mind (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Karoline
post Oct 9 2010, 04:13 AM
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I've personally always ran with type O working on cultured just fine. The reasons why? First off, it is a 30 BP quality, that's a big sink when you consider that the non-cultured bioware is generally cheaper and easier to get as deltaware, and doesn't take up all that much essence in the first place. For only 10 BP you can get a 10% essence discount on all bioware which stacks with grades. I don't think 30 should preclude the cultured or it doesn't really come out to that much bang for buck.

Second, there is an internal inconsistency. The definition of cultured bioware is that it is grown specifically for you, using your own DNA, and thus tailored just for you. The definition of delta grade bioware is that it is grown specifically for you, using your own DNA, and thus tailored just for you. Yet cultured bioware has grades, despite the fact that the requirement for delta grade bioware has already been met.

I've always thought that it is either A) Just like the other bioware, it just happens to interact with your brain, or, more likely B) they start with a type O stock that has already grown, say 3 weeks 5 days of its 4 week growth time, and then just add in your DNA to make it a bit compatible for you in those last couple days. This preserves both the 'cultured' aspect, and the 'grades' aspect, as higher grades mean it gets special ordered at earlier growth times, which means special care has to be taken, and extensive work to get it to grow with your DNA from earlier and earlier stages.

So, just my thoughts on it.
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Marcus
post Oct 9 2010, 05:00 AM
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I think it should work with bioware thats not Alpha/Beta/Delta. So for now sounds like its gonna be a GM call. I don't see in Errata for Augmentation, and perhaps once we get that it will be made clear.
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KarmaInferno
post Oct 9 2010, 05:24 AM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 8 2010, 03:38 PM) *
You know this how?


Well, there's a couple of other places where the word "basic" is used erroneously in place of "standard", but I can't remember exactly where. That's really just circumstantial evidence, though.

The real answer is what the others here have stated. One of the Devs discussed it in a chat as intending to work that way.

Of course, we're still waiting on the errata to actually reflect this.

Isn't Shadowrun fun?



-k
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Nifft
post Oct 9 2010, 06:32 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 9 2010, 12:13 AM) *
Second, there is an internal inconsistency. The definition of cultured bioware is that it is grown specifically for you, using your own DNA, and thus tailored just for you. The definition of delta grade bioware is that it is grown specifically for you, using your own DNA, and thus tailored just for you. Yet cultured bioware has grades, despite the fact that the requirement for delta grade bioware has already been met.

The way I rationalized that was: if they used only your DNA, you wouldn't get bioware. You'd just get clone tissue. They have to modify your DNA with some other pattern, and grow an organ that's close enough to clone tissue that your body will accept it, but that's different enough from clone tissue that it does something cool.

When you go in for Alpha/Beta/Delta bioware, they spend more time analyzing and tweaking your DNA, rather than just bulk-overwriting chunks of it. By the time you hit Deltaware, they're basically re-doing all the research they went through to develop that kind if bioware in the first place.

Whose DNA did they use as the FIRST template for all cultured modifications? They used Type-O guy. So he gets "free" Deltaware, since the research for his DNA is already done (and widely published).
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Mäx
post Oct 9 2010, 06:54 AM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 9 2010, 08:24 AM) *
One of the Devs discussed it in a chat as intending to work that way.

Any proof of that, cos from what i remember the line devoleper at least was of completdly opposite opinion.
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naga-nuyen
post Oct 9 2010, 07:19 AM
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Here are some posts from some Devs about the issue. There may be more in Dumpshock but these seem to really clear it up for me.

Here is one from Frank:
QUOTE
FrankTrollman:

Cultured Bioware has to be grown to match the neural pathways of a specific individual. While a pancreas or a kidney is to large extent a self contained system with in input and output valve, a spinal chord is a complex relay that integrates itself in a unique and evelopmentally assigned fashion to each individual. So if you go get a piece of cultured ware they map out where your neurons go and then then they make a new item for you. There is no "off the rack" possibilty because it has to be grown specifically for you.

So when you pull a cerebral booster out of someone, there isn't anyone on the planet that you can reinstall it into. That's why Dr. Swayne put it down like so expressively:
QUOTE (Augmentation @ p. 15)
Bioware implants are a different story: cultured ware has no resale value except as ghoul chow

It doesn't matter if it was produced with Type O tissues or not - it's always going to be built to the specific neural net of the intended recipient. And because of that, cultured ware is always grown from the cells of the intended recipient - there's no advantage to be had in having generic neural ware, there wouldn't be anyone you could install it into. As a result, Type O spinal chords aren't even available - there's no reason to keep them around (see p. 127).

So the long story short is that Type O affects non-cultured Bioware only. Basic Bioware is the specific list of ware on page 338 of the Basic Book, as distinct from the list on page 339 of Cultured Bioware. But hey, getting a delta-grade suprathyroid for 45000 is quality children's television. And in the Bioware section of Augmentation, the Cultured Bioware doesn't start until page 70, so there's still lots of groovy, furry, or weird augmentations you can get the bonus on (Quills? Silk glands? Why not?).

Also note that it doesn't apply to versions that don't come off the rack. So you can't get a delta grade bioware on top of your Type O physiology and have it stack up to a 100% Essence cost reduction. It needs to be Basic Bioware, and of Standard edit: or Alpha Grade for you to get the benefits.

---

And yes, if you get a Suite and get it Alpha and have Biocompatibility, the total cost should be 60% (a 10% reduction for the Suite, a 20% reduction for the Grade, and a 10% reduction for Biocompatibility). In general, when you have multiple things reducing the same Essence cost, they all reduce the same cost. You aren't getting a series of multiples, you're getting a discount of 10% (or whatever) of the original cost.

And no, Biocompatibilty does not stack with Type O system - there wasn't normally any need to say that because under normal rules you can't have both anyway.

---

And on another note: Cultured is not a grade. The rules are pretty clear on this point:
QUOTE (Augmentation @ page 127)
Cultured bioware may also be alpha, beta, or delta grade.

-Frank


Here is one from synner:

QUOTE
Synner

Frank's analysis above is correct.


this is second one from Synner:

QUOTE
Synner:
"QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Aug 3 2007, 08:04 PM)
So now we have different meanings of deltaware for basic and cultured bioware. Basic Bioware becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry and genome. Integration has nothing to do with it (or else the type O wouldn't work at all, since it's all about biochem matching). But cultured bioware determines grade based on integration, not biochem."

Think of it this way:

All bioware (standard and cultured) becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry, genome and immune system tags. "Integration" has everything everything to do with it. Type O only has to do with biological integration with the existing metabolism, but the various grades don't just represent biological integration, they represent neurological integration too (as well as other things such as the range of integration processes used).

Cultured bioware also demands neurological integration, in fact, it requires it or it won't work. By that I don't just mean tying the new bioware into the neural network, but also reinforcing and enhancing synaptic links, biochemical transmitters, overriding biological limitations to neural stimuli, stimulating new neural pathways essencial to that bioware, reducing conflicts in central nervous system stimuli relay, etc - this is required to handle the augmented feedback, expanded neural activity, and biostress introduced to the neurological system by cultured bioware. This "neurological integration" needs to be custom tailored to a specific user because no two nervous systems are identical and this is what renders it useless. This neurological integration can be performed to varying degrees (hence grades) but is essential to cultured bioware.

Type O helps with the biological integration and not with the neurological integration which is what makes Cultured Bioware unique. So it's not that Type O doesn't affect Cultured Bioware, but that while it might aid the metabolic integration, that's only a part (the lesser one) of the equation and it doesn't affect the neurological integration which is essential to make Cultured Bioware work. Rather than saying it works partially, its simpler to say that that since neurological integration is essential.

A secondary effect of Culture Bioware's requirement is that it is never available Second hand.
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Mäx
post Oct 9 2010, 07:30 AM
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QUOTE (naga-nuyen @ Oct 9 2010, 10:19 AM) *
Here are some posts from some Devs about the issue. There may be more in Dumpshock but these seem to really clear it up for me.

Yeah those are the posts i was refferring to(the ones from Synner).
But i would still want to see this so called "proofs" that Tyro and Karma Inferno are preferring to that show devs intention to be opposite to what those posts state.
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KarmaInferno
post Oct 9 2010, 07:50 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Oct 9 2010, 01:54 AM) *
Any proof of that, cos from what i remember the line devoleper at least was of completdly opposite opinion.


From the guy who wrote much of the FAQ

"the purpose of a FAQ is to answer questions and not rewrite or provide new rules"

I did figure out where I saw that "standard" grade implants used to be called "basic" grade - the old 4th (non-Anniversary) edition. Page 84, second column.

Does anyone have a copy of the old FAQ for that version of 4E? Is the relevant text the same? If so, it is not unreasonable to assume the SR4A name change for the grade simply wasn't caught.



-k
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