Okay, I like to make NPC/ possible PC's. I want to create all sorts so I can learn both what can be made and what should not be allowed if/when I GM. Following these lines I have always thought Type O system is not worth the bang for the BP. But after sitting down and taking the longer view on a potential NPC/PC i found that this idea had merit. For now he is stacked with level 2 Muscle toner and augmentation, EA, Synthcardium level 3, and I threw in a Genetic optimization (for that magic future 11 in agility). As an adept he is using Geas optional rules (if allowed, if not then drop the walk) to get Improved Reflexes at level 3 (3pp or 4pp), enhanced Attribute [reaction] (.75pp), sustenance (.25) and traceless walk (1pp).

Now funny thing is that after looking at all that fancy basic Bioware, this NPC/PC could take every piece in 4Ea Book (Except cat's eyes, Suprathyroid, and Skin pocket) for a total of 5.65 Essence loss. All he needs to do is initiate 5 times and raise his magic attribute 5 times and he retains all his Adept powers.....talk about a true Augmentation Addict

Now of course he would need a banging back story, and round out his skills (mostly starting as a sniper with high athletic and stealth skills) but kind of funny what the Type O system can do for an Adept over the long term!

With Optimization it comes out to 5.95 cost, which is scary to consider him an Adpet.

did you account for the fact that type O doesn't help with all bioware, only the non-cultured stuff?

Aw, come on. With that kind of Essence score, that's the only culture he's got.

Yeah only used the "Basic" chart from 4Ea lol, it is insane he is like a walking Bio poster child when and if he gets all the funds for the operations. Figuring that he would have to do adventures to get said money then he should have enough Karma to raise magic and initiate enough....but that may slow it down, thus Elf race to give him the life span (yes this will never really come up in game time) so he can get everything his little Addictive ass wants.

Its viable, but as far as effectiveness look at what he actually has. The BP/karma cost, as the character had to have high enough magic that all the 'ware didn't drop him to 0, is mostly wasted. Asides from the traceless walk, which is your drop if necessary power, over what could have been done with other 'ware the character has gained. . .sustenance.

Considering it is over 70BP spent on magic and qualities just at chargen, it seems a bit lackluster as far as min/max goes. But if done simply for the bioadept approach, seems effective enough, and would make for a memorable encounter as an npc. Mage assenses. GM, "Awakened and has X, Y, and Z implants." Mage, "what"?

A common erroneous assumption. It's been clarified many times that "basic" is meant in the sense that it's not alpha, beta, or delta. It's one of the few things the FAQ got right, and has been confirmed elsewhere.

It's their own fault for using the word 'basic' twice in overlapping circumstances.

The more and more I add into this nut ball I really like him. He is not a mini maxi guy, just someone that was born with one talent and has an addiction that trashes that gift. I would so play him, if I had a group, and I put more work into making him a rounded PC with background and not one dimension of I want implant now! Also originally I have him at a 500BP build, so he has some great Die pools in stealth, athletics, longarms, but this is a 400BP:

400BP
Race: elf [30BP]
Attributes: Score:
Body: 5 [40BP]
Agility: 6 (8 ) [40BP]
Reaction: 5 (9) [40BP]
Strength: 2 (4) [10BP]
Charisma: 3 [0BP]
Intuition: 5 [40BP]
Logic: 2 [10BP]
Willpower: 3 [20BP]
Essence: 5.2
Magic: 4/5 [40BP]
Edge: 1 [0BP]

Positive Qualities:
Adept [-5BP]
Type O system [-30BP]
Negative Qualities:
Sensitive system [+15BP]
Spirit Bane (Guidance) these spirits become angered by this adept that strays so far from his path [+10BP]

Augmentation addict [+10BP]

Optional Rule:Geas: (Needs to take qualifying action)
(this is using advance rules were Geas is linked to one power (Improved reflexes) and gains this power at .25 reduction)

Active Skills:
Pistols: 1 [4BP]
Automatics : 1 [4BP]
Long-arms(Sniper rifle) : 4 [18BP]
Blades (Swords) :1 [6BP]
Athletics skill group (rank 1) [10BP]
Stealth skill group (rank 4) [40BP]
Perception:2 [8BP]

Adept Powers: power points: 4
Improved Reflexes level 3 (cost 3 points)
Improved Attribute (Reaction) level 1 (.75 cost)
Sustenance (.25)

Augmentations Bio-ware: (1.3) (.65)
Muscle Toner (Bio ware) level 2 (ESS .1; cost: 16,000¥ +2 to agility)
Muscle Augmentation (Bio ware) level 2 (ESS .1; cost: 15,000¥ +2 to strength)
Enhanced Articulation (Bio-ware) (ESS: .15; cost:: 40,000¥ +1 Die pool to any physical skill linked to physical attribute
Synthacardium (Bio ware) level 3 (ESS .15; cost: 30,000¥ +3 to athletic tests)


BP: 40
Gear: (37,233¥) Add 1,000 from ware: BP: 9
Contacts: BP: 11
Cyber: (101,000¥) BP: 20

Edit: due to the fact I can't read, I have learned that you take the Geas quality as an optional rule you gain no BP from it. So I change that negetive quality with Spirit Bane.

Darn double post

Especially since the word they should have used is 'Standard'.





-k

Strange but might be good for an npc

Considering that bioware is divided into "basic" and "cultured", it would take more than an FAQ that you admit is full of errors to convince me that they meant "standard" when they typed "basic". Especially preceded by "Off the rack", which cultured bioware definitely isn't (since it has to be tailor-made for the intended recipient).

Consider the fact that you can get cultured bio in deltaware.

Augmentation does say
"Only basic bioware can be found second-hand—alpha or better grade
and cultured bioware are by definition protein-matched and
cannot be implanted in another body."

which is internally consistent, even if the term "basic bioware" isn't used anywhere else.

Still, there's no reason why cultured bioware should come in grades if genetic markers are the basis of compatibility.
Or, at least, a Type-O person should be able to get 2nd hand delta-grade implants with no difficulty.

You must be reading a completely different FAQ then the rest of us, as the FAQ says nothing about Type O.
The fact that cultured bioware is available in grades just like basic, has nothing to do with the fact that Type O only works with basic bioware.

Looks fine to me. If your opting to go blades though is there a reason your skipping foci? Or just lacking the resources to make that happen?

Never even crossed my mind lol, but um yeah I ran out of money seems like the least retarded response

I don't really see your point. Having it be cultured from your own cells may be a huge gigantic advantage when getting, say, muscle toners but it may be a bare minimum requirement when they're mucking about with your nervous system. For all we know cultured 'ware requires incredibly precise mapping neuron by neuron to hit Delta. The brain is after all plastic, so putting in a bit of tissue that is geared to mold itself to your brain rather than forcing your brain to adapt to new neurons talking all at once may make all the difference in the world.

if these use the same geas, then, as your break it, you lose Improved Reflexes AND an additional point of magic
you won't gain BP AND discount for one GEAS. the negative quality is in no correlation to the power cost reduction rule

That does not seem to be the case which is stated in the Street Magic page 31



So off the top of my head, (would not actually use this..but if sex is on the list so could this) This guy needs to do 100 push-ups and 100 sit-ups each day. Tuesday he does 99 because he can't count (low logic). That 24 hour period he loses his improved reflexes. That is it, no more damage done. At the beginning of the next day he can do 101 push-ups (1 for the Army) and wow moving like Greece lightning again.

So in the land of stats. He has magic 5 which is now 4 and he loses Improved reflexes which covers 3 points. Remaining powers are unaffected.

Edit: one note i missed is that I thought that was combined in one thing...i would not take the negative quality then lol, I would take something like Allergy: someone who cannot seem to read the rules right (um that is me) Thanks for pointing that out

The bioware grades/classes debate was carried out extensively on an Augemtation Errata thread. IIRC, the developers said that what was meant that you have the folowing:

Basic Bioware = {Standard, Alpha, Beta, Delta}, where Alpha+ still needs to be adapted to the customer.
Cultured Bioware = {Standard, Alpha, Beta, Delta}, ALL Cultured bioware needs to be adapted to the customer

Type O treats Basic Standard as Basic Delta.

IIRC alpha too, if you for some weird reason want to pay double for your ware for no benefit.

Don't you need atleast 1 point of essence to have the magic attribute?

You do. And you really need more then that if your gonna have enough magic to make it worth the time. But type-O elevates this problem by making bio-ware cheap as for as essence cost goes to the point, where something are more cost effective (Due to essence pricing) to buy as bioware, I'm looking at you Muscle toner! Given that magic and essence while linked are no long one and the same stat (thank you buying magic separately) it can be very effective.

By looking through the rules, if I initiate and raise my magic attribute before i drop down and keep raising it then as long as I have .1 essence then he is fine. But if not then he would not take everything at it's highest level

The classic problem with the adept/augmentation dance is that *someday*, far in the future, you'll have a functional character. You mentioned this in the OP, but it always bears repeating.

That's my understanding too which is why I asked. As a starting character though, you need 1 essence to have magic.

But doing a physical adept with Muscle Toner, Muscle Augmentation 2 at the cost of .4 essence
OrthoSkin 3 fpr .375 essence

Synthcardium 2 or Eyeware rating 3 would both fit int he remaining essence

That's pretty sweet for 1 Magic Point

Yeah it is sick how much benefit you get for that one point, if you do not max out your magic it is almost silly for the Mini/maxi stand point not to spend that 1 point on Augmentations

That brings up a rules interpretation question I've been wondering for awhile.
Say you have an adept with 5 Magic and you give him ~1 Essence worth of 'ware at chargen.
Can you say "he got the 'ware before getting the adept quality and magic and only spend 50 bps on boosting up his stats,
OR
does the Adept subtract 1 from his Magic score, giving him Magic 4(5-1) Essence 5 in that case and will have to spend the full 75 BPs to get Magic 5 in that case?

I've always assumed the latter since the rules say "When Essence declines, Magic and Resonance decline by the same amount." (SR4A p67)

the latter for character creation.
THough the former if you did do the ware first, and then had the latent awakening thing

There are those who will argue that you can do the sneaky 'magic after' trick. AFAIK, the rules don't actually say that you have to do Attribs before Gear, although you obviously *should*.

I think your right, I mean I am sure the Army issued me my TA-50 before I turned 18 those ninja like bastards!

Bringing it back to the "Cultural Appropriation" argument, didn't we diagram this sentence before?



The comma seems to indicate that basic is an adjective, not part of the proceeding noun.

Like you wouldn't say "That's one big, machine gun," because you are talking about a machine gun rather than a gun which is both big and machine.

Extrapolating it in the context of the contested line you can see that they are talking, not about Basic Bioware, but but about Bioware which is both Off the rack and basic.

Looking down at the section featuring surgical tests for implantation, they list "Basic Grade" and "Basic Grade (Cultured Bioware)" both of which are basic bioware, though one is cultured as well as basic. Naturally the quality description doesn't say "Off the rack, basic bioware, (including cultured basic bioware,)" but it did not include an exclusive statement either.

So, where does this leave us? Free for the GM to interpret as his game demands, I suppose. Though, delta-basic brainmeat is the ultimate fast-track to uber ever.

And thats where cultured bioware is undeniaply excluded from that quality, as cultured bioware is never,ever available Off the rack as it has to be tailor made for you even in standard grade

Thats one more section for errata, as basic isn't a grade of ware, its a term preferring to a specific list of bioware.
Standard is the term that should be used in that section.

The trouble with a type-o adept build like this is that you use your maximum positive qualities with just those two. You can't take restricted gear. Which means no Toner 4, Aug 4, or suprathyroid. Making your bio-adept kind of....bad at chargen.

But yes, it is tempting to do any way if you have a GM that actually gives you money/rewards.

I don't think that basic bioware is kept literally on racks, therefore, it only makes sense to look at "off the rack" as an expression.
Off the rack can mean either, 1) standard or 2) ready-made.

If you use the first definition, then it is culture-inclusive.
If you use the second definition, then it is culture-exclusive.

So, once again, we're left with a GM interpretation until the official errata comes out...

I'm not arguing for either side with this, but 'off the rack' means 'ready-made'? What does 'ready-made' mean, then? As we know, Cultured is 'tailor-made', not 'ready-made'.

If it's Tailor-made for the intended recipient, then wouldn't they ALREADY be using your DNA?
So wouldn't Type-O system not have any effect?

Type-O helps for pre-grown bioware that uses a generic dna/genetic source. (Type-O)
but Cultured Bioware is already made using genetic samples of you, and grown from you basically. So Type-O should have no effect.

Off-rack simply means it's as close to 'one size fits all' as can be reasonably expected. It's made with no one person in mind, only Joe Everydollar.

off-rack and Ready To Wear are only different in the US.

Off the Rack refers to stuff you buy at wal-mart and Target

Ready to Wear (Pret-a-porter) is the stuff you buy from Nordstroms, etc.

Wedding Gowns, Suits, etc, have to be tailor fitted and adjusted. They are not Ready to Wear, or Off the Rack.

the appropriate term for bioware would probably be.. "Off the Shelf"

If Type-O doesn't get an essence cost reduction from cultured bioware, from a game balance perspective, it's entirely too expensive.

Your kidding right?

for a physical Adept, type-O is perfect and awesome.
How much cultured bioware do you really want as an adept?

If Type-O gave you delta all bioware.. then.. it's not expensive enough.
1/2 essence for 0 money, for all bioware? for only 30BP? You're kidding right.

I could use it to get synaptic Boosters 2, and save myself 1.4million nuyen

How much basic bioware do you want as an adept? That's the question, that determines, wether Type O system is too expensive or not.

And I think muscle toner, muscle augmentation, bone density, synthacardium und orthoskin are high on that list, but not so much else...
Well, maybe platelet factories.

-CJ

it's easier to jot down the basic bioware you don't want, than to list the ones you do.

Bone Density
Cat's eyes (maybe)
Enhanced Artifulation
Muscle aug
Mscle Toner
Orthoskin
Pathogenic Defense
Platelet Factories
Suprathyroid Gland
Symbiotes
Synthcardium
Tailored Pheromones
Trauma Dampener

These are all good bioware you might potentially want.
I'm sure there's a couple more in Augmentations i forgot about.

Type-O is probably one of the most awesome qualities

It saves you .5 essence. Not 1.4 million nuyen. The whole point of delta-ware is that it's not worth it. 10X the nuyen for 1/2 the essence. It's just not worth it. Delta-Ware money is retirement money. There's no reason to ever buy it unless you're talking about something super cheap like a datajack.

So, yes, if Type-O doesn't get you an essence cost reduction for cultured bioware, it's not worth the BP cost, and certainly not worth taking all of your positive quality points.

Well, if that .5 essence costs 1.4 million otherwise- then yeah, it does save you that kind of money.

There's a disconnect between the essence and the nuyen. In this case the disconnect is Type-O system.

It's a little like winning a prize contest. You just won...A NEW BOAT. Valued at over $100,000, this new boat will make your fishing trips more luxurious!

You weren't actually ever going to buy a boat, yourself. So did winning a new boat save you money? No. It's just a boat to you. Its something you could not & would not have purchased if you had the money to begin with.

type o is something you can only get at the start

it is an investment

an adept with type-O and n karma is more powerful then and adept with n karma

not that anyone ever actually maxes out any character....

As long as you have >1 essence you have a Max Magic >0.

As long as you have Initiations < Magic you can initiate.

1 essence -> 1 Max Magic -> 1 Magic -> 1 Initiation -> 2 Max Magic.

As soon as you drop below 1 (but more than 0) your Magic = Max Initiations = Initiations = Max Magic. You can no longer initiate or raise your magic score, but you don't lose what you have.