A common erroneous assumption. It's been clarified many times that "basic" is meant in the sense that it's not alpha, beta, or delta. It's one of the few things the FAQ got right, and has been confirmed elsewhere.

So would Type-O also cover genetheraphy then?

Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6. For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1. The maximum rating for Magic is 6 + initiation grade (see Initiation, p. 198); for Resonance the maximum rating is 6 + submersion grade (see Submersion, p. 243).

there is no set Max from having a low essence
[...]
Essence loss never effects natural max, nor does it set a cap

the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1.

By looking through the rules, if I initiate and raise my magic attribute before i drop down and keep raising it then as long as I have .1 essence then he is fine. But if not then he would not take everything at it's highest level

Does that mean that your max Initiate Rank is 6?

Uh, if someone's Essence drops below 1, their Magic (and thereby Initiation Grade) drops to zilch, or so I was led to believe.

The key is making sure that as you drop below 1 essence is that you COULD initiate one more time, eg:

1.01 Ess, 6 Initiations, 7 Magic, 7 Max Magic.

As you drop to 0.99 Ess you lose a point of magic and max -> 6/6 and still have 6 initiations (maximum allowed by new magic score)

Otherwise you waste an initiation:

1.01 Ess, 7 Init, 7 Mag, 8 Max -> 0.99 Ess -> 6 Mag, 7 Max, 7 Init [error: Init > Mag] -> 6 Init -> 6 Max

I thought the rules were fairly clear that if Essence < 1, then Magic = 0 despite the number of initiations.

I suppose I'll have to go through them again to verify.

I thought the rules were fairly clear that if Essence < 1, then Magic = 0 despite the number of initiations.

It's a little unclear. While normally true that Ess < 1 does result in a burnout it makes no mention of how that functions with Initiations.

What I think it says is that if Magic drops below 1 you burn out, not if Essence does. In any case, its probably open to interpretation. Some of us just like the mathematical approach because we're all logical thinkers.

I thought the rules were fairly clear that if Essence < 1, then Magic = 0 despite the number of initiations.

I suppose I'll have to go through them again to verify.

The key to infinite Initiation is:
- Max Initiation rank = Magic
- Max Magic = Essence + Initiation rank

So your Initiation max is 6 if you never raise your Magic above 6.

As initiation is cheap(ishy) someone could potentially just initiate a bunch of times and not buy magic right away.

For adepts do you get the additional power point from initiation or gaining more magic? Because I thought you got a metamagic free with initiation and you could choose to take a power point instead. But then as an adept don't you also get a power point for each point of magic you have?

p. 31 Tweaking the Rules
Add the following Tweak:
“Adep. Initiation. Group. may consider allowing adepts to gain
1 Power Point instead of a Metamagic at Initiation.”

As initiation is cheap(ishy) someone could potentially just initiate a bunch of times and not buy magic right away.

For adepts do you get the additional power point from initiation or gaining more magic? Because I thought you got a metamagic free with initiation and you could choose to take a power point instead. But then as an adept don't you also get a power point for each point of magic you have?

As initiation is cheap(ishy) someone could potentially just initiate a bunch of times and not buy magic right away.

Type O simply should not be compatible with cultured bioware. Looking into the information we see that Type Owen is derived from the man whose system was perfect for making bioware that anyone's body could accept. Now, we already know that cultured bioware has to be grown for the receipient which should already sound the klaxons as to Type O not working with it, this stuff was already NOT cloned from Owen, therefore, no treating it as delta-ware.

If cultured bioware is grown using the recipients own DNA......what is the difference between basic and delta grades? How is delta better? What is the fluff there?

better growing process, more safety measures, less errors, defects?

Because the basic stuff is grown from your DNA but has errors in the growing process.. making it less compatible.

The higher grades have better growing process.
Which is why they cost more, and use up less essence.

We can make any fluff we want for it

Therefore, for "Basic" delta-grade bioware could actually be better than it is. Right? It's delta-grade because it's grown from your own DNA. By making it Omega grade, they remove all the errors and improve the growing process. So, why aren't they doing this?

Maybe they're already doing this which is why you can put someone's organs in your own body without a type-match

what doesn't make much sense is alpha and beta bioware.

If I was doing bioware.

I would have:
Basic Bioware, Basic Bioware grown from your own dna/genetic markers (delta)
Cultured Bioware

and that's it. No Alpha, Beta, Delta cultured bioware.

'Standard' is the actual grade, though, right? This is a straightforward rules error, and the only reason we know the intended function is because of a dev chat?

But as the rules stand basic cultured ware is counted as delta with type-O.

There is no basic cultured ware.
There's basic bioware and there's cultured bioware and both of those have 4 grades standard,alpha,beta and delta.
Type-O system only works for basic bioware.

Yes but its meant to work for all bio of standard.

You know this how?

You know this how?

Second, there is an internal inconsistency. The definition of cultured bioware is that it is grown specifically for you, using your own DNA, and thus tailored just for you. The definition of delta grade bioware is that it is grown specifically for you, using your own DNA, and thus tailored just for you. Yet cultured bioware has grades, despite the fact that the requirement for delta grade bioware has already been met.

One of the Devs discussed it in a chat as intending to work that way.

FrankTrollman:

Cultured Bioware has to be grown to match the neural pathways of a specific individual. While a pancreas or a kidney is to large extent a self contained system with in input and output valve, a spinal chord is a complex relay that integrates itself in a unique and evelopmentally assigned fashion to each individual. So if you go get a piece of cultured ware they map out where your neurons go and then then they make a new item for you. There is no "off the rack" possibilty because it has to be grown specifically for you.

So when you pull a cerebral booster out of someone, there isn't anyone on the planet that you can reinstall it into. That's why Dr. Swayne put it down like so expressively:
QUOTE (Augmentation @ p. 15)
Bioware implants are a different story: cultured ware has no resale value except as ghoul chow

It doesn't matter if it was produced with Type O tissues or not - it's always going to be built to the specific neural net of the intended recipient. And because of that, cultured ware is always grown from the cells of the intended recipient - there's no advantage to be had in having generic neural ware, there wouldn't be anyone you could install it into. As a result, Type O spinal chords aren't even available - there's no reason to keep them around (see p. 127).

So the long story short is that Type O affects non-cultured Bioware only. Basic Bioware is the specific list of ware on page 338 of the Basic Book, as distinct from the list on page 339 of Cultured Bioware. But hey, getting a delta-grade suprathyroid for 45000 is quality children's television. And in the Bioware section of Augmentation, the Cultured Bioware doesn't start until page 70, so there's still lots of groovy, furry, or weird augmentations you can get the bonus on (Quills? Silk glands? Why not?).

Also note that it doesn't apply to versions that don't come off the rack. So you can't get a delta grade bioware on top of your Type O physiology and have it stack up to a 100% Essence cost reduction. It needs to be Basic Bioware, and of Standard edit: or Alpha Grade for you to get the benefits.

---

And yes, if you get a Suite and get it Alpha and have Biocompatibility, the total cost should be 60% (a 10% reduction for the Suite, a 20% reduction for the Grade, and a 10% reduction for Biocompatibility). In general, when you have multiple things reducing the same Essence cost, they all reduce the same cost. You aren't getting a series of multiples, you're getting a discount of 10% (or whatever) of the original cost.

And no, Biocompatibilty does not stack with Type O system - there wasn't normally any need to say that because under normal rules you can't have both anyway.

---

And on another note: Cultured is not a grade. The rules are pretty clear on this point:
QUOTE (Augmentation @ page 127)
Cultured bioware may also be alpha, beta, or delta grade.

-Frank

Synner

Frank's analysis above is correct.

Synner:
"QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Aug 3 2007, 08:04 PM)
So now we have different meanings of deltaware for basic and cultured bioware. Basic Bioware becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry and genome. Integration has nothing to do with it (or else the type O wouldn't work at all, since it's all about biochem matching). But cultured bioware determines grade based on integration, not biochem."

Think of it this way:

All bioware (standard and cultured) becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry, genome and immune system tags. "Integration" has everything everything to do with it. Type O only has to do with biological integration with the existing metabolism, but the various grades don't just represent biological integration, they represent neurological integration too (as well as other things such as the range of integration processes used).

Cultured bioware also demands neurological integration, in fact, it requires it or it won't work. By that I don't just mean tying the new bioware into the neural network, but also reinforcing and enhancing synaptic links, biochemical transmitters, overriding biological limitations to neural stimuli, stimulating new neural pathways essencial to that bioware, reducing conflicts in central nervous system stimuli relay, etc - this is required to handle the augmented feedback, expanded neural activity, and biostress introduced to the neurological system by cultured bioware. This "neurological integration" needs to be custom tailored to a specific user because no two nervous systems are identical and this is what renders it useless. This neurological integration can be performed to varying degrees (hence grades) but is essential to cultured bioware.

Type O helps with the biological integration and not with the neurological integration which is what makes Cultured Bioware unique. So it's not that Type O doesn't affect Cultured Bioware, but that while it might aid the metabolic integration, that's only a part (the lesser one) of the equation and it doesn't affect the neurological integration which is essential to make Cultured Bioware work. Rather than saying it works partially, its simpler to say that that since neurological integration is essential.

A secondary effect of Culture Bioware's requirement is that it is never available Second hand.

Here are some posts from some Devs about the issue. There may be more in Dumpshock but these seem to really clear it up for me.

Any proof of that, cos from what i remember the line devoleper at least was of completdly opposite opinion.