Hardliner Gloves, Hardliner Gloves question Options

[stu_pie]

Hardliner Gloves do they stack/be used with adept powers (such as Critical Strike or Penetrating Strike)?

[InfinityzeN]

They are a weapon, which means that though they use the "Unarmed Skill", you are not unarmed.

[Squinky]

Hardliner Gloves do they stack/be used with adept powers (such as Critical Strike or Penetrating Strike)?

This seems to be a matter of opinion. It's always stacked where I play.

[Garvel]

Each level of Critical Strike increases the character’s Damage Value in unarmed
combat by +1

I don't see why it shouldn't work. Critical Strike hurts, and critical strike with densiplast knuckles hurts even more.

They are writing about unarmed attacks, because it doesn't work with katanas, knifes and clubs and all the weapons that are in the basic book. The hardline gloves are from a book that came out much later. I doubt that they were meaning gloves that use the unarmed combat skill with that line.

[Saint Sithney]

I wouldn't let them stack, but I would let them modify base damage.
IOW, Hardliners + crit strike 4 = [(str/2+1)+4]P

But with Bone density Augmentation it would use the higher of the two bases.
So, Hardliners + BDA3 = (str/2)+1 < (str/2+2) = (str/2+2)
Hardliners + BDA3 + crit strike 4 = (str/2+1)+4 < (str/2+2)+4 = (str/2+2)+4

I see it sort of like giving up the option of doing S damage in order to do an extra P.

[Yerameyahu]

Meh. If you let gloves work, what's your rationale for not letting knives work? Katanas? Laser axes? They're still connected to those magic hands.

[Fatum]

When you're using the hardliner gloves, you're still in "unarmed combat" from the rules piece Garvel cited. I see no reason not to stack benefits.

[TheOOB]

This seems to be a matter of opinion. It's always stacked where I play.

Well not really, no, it's not a matter of opinion. While the unarmed combat skill can be used with certain weapons, the unarmed adept powers can only be used when unarmed. Hardliner gloves are a weapon, ergo you are armed, and critical strike does not work. You can do it however you want, just relize making them stack is a house rules, and not RAW or even RAI. If you want to make the gloves better, make them a weapon focus. If you want to use critical strike, be unarmed. You can't mix and match by rules.

[SpellBinder]

I'm with the rest along the lines that hardliner gloves don't stack with Critical Strike. The gloves are an exotic weapon with the exception that you use the Unarmed Combat skill by virtue of the last sentence describing the gloves themselves, but that doesn't make them 'not a weapon'.

And to add a few examples to Yerameyahu's post, if you're allowing hardliner gloves to work with Critical Strike what's to stop a cyber-adept from applying critical strike to hand razors, hand blades, or spurs as well?

[widdlyskwids]

What's to stop a cyber-adept from applying critical strike to hand razors, hand blades, or spurs as well?

Hand Blades, Hand Razors, and Spurs use the Blades or Exotic Melee Weapon skills, not Unarmed Combat. Critical Strike only increases the Damage Value of Unarmed Combat attacks.

This post has been edited by widdlyskwids: Feb 21 2011, 08:35 AM

[Saint Sithney]

If you allow Bone Density Augmentaiton or Bone Lacing to add to unarmed, why not let the gloves work?
After all, auras extend past clothing, and unlike other weapons, it doesn't change how you attack. Every motion remains the same.


The real problem comes when guy wants to get Hardliner Weapon Foci.

[Ascalaphus]

It's nice if there's an Augmented alternative to most Adept powers. Therefore I'd choose not to let Hardliners and BDA/BL stack with Critical Strike/Killing Hands/Etc.

I also think that nearly all stages of BDA and BL make Hardliners redundant.

Hardliners are just the cheapest, least invasive option.

[SpellBinder]

Hand Blades, Hand Razors, and Spurs use the Blades or Exotic Melee Weapon skills, not Unarmed Combat. Critical Strike only increases the Damage Value of Unarmed Combat attacks.

/facepalm

I was referring to this previous post in regards to the cyberweapons I mentioned above...

Meh. If you let gloves work, what's your rationale for not letting knives work? Katanas? Laser axes? They're still connected to those magic hands.

[Tyro]

[Edit:] I'm not going to have anything to do with this thread on either side. Comment retracted.

[Mäx]

Well not really, no, it's not a matter of opinion. While the unarmed combat skill can be used with certain weapons, the unarmed adept powers can only be used when unarmed. Hardliner gloves are a weapon, ergo you are armed, and critical strike does not work. You can do it however you want, just relize making them stack is a house rules, and not RAW or even RAI. If you want to make the gloves better, make them a weapon focus. If you want to use critical strike, be unarmed. You can't mix and match by rules.

So your trying to claim that even though my character uses unarmed combat skill to attack with the gloves, she's not in fact in unarmed combat.
Is that really what your saying, because that's very counter intuitive and illogical.

[TheOOB]

It says "while in unarmed combat", not "while unarmed". To me that says any weapon which uses the unarmed skill - namely fists or hardliners. (Shock gloves are a weird exception that I try not to think about :-/)

That is wrong, and not at all what the rules say. SR4A, page 195

Critical Strike
Cost: .25 per level
This power uses magic to increase the Damage Value of your unarmed
attacks, as you strike with more proficiency and power. Each
level of Critical Strike increases the character’s Damage Value in unarmed
combat by +1. Critical Strike may be used with Killing Hands
(p. 196), and may also be used in astral combat. The use of Critical
Strike must be declared with the Unarmed Combat attack.

First sentance cleary states that it increases the damage value of unarmed attacks. Wielding a weapon makes you armed, ergo, does not work with the power. It is possible the last sentence may confuse people, but the structure of the sentence is restrictive, not additive. It mentions that you must declare the powers use when making an unarmed combat attack, but it does not say or imply that it can be used for anything other than an unarmed attack. The rules are right there, saying critical strike works with hardliner gloves is a house rule.

If you allow Bone Density Augmentaiton or Bone Lacing to add to unarmed, why not let the gloves work?
After all, auras extend past clothing, and unlike other weapons, it doesn't change how you attack. Every motion remains the same.


The real problem comes when guy wants to get Hardliner Weapon Foci.

Bone Lacing and Bone Density change the DV of your unarmed attack, they are not in an of themselves a weapon, whereas hand razors, spurs, and hardliner gloves are a weapon. The confusion here is that "Unarmed Combat" the skill, and "Unarmed Attack" the natural weapon all characters have share very similar names, which is something of a design over-site. It would be better if the skill was named "Martial Arts" or "Brawl"

[Machiavelli]

And again we discuss the same topic. Nice how things come back, and back, and back...all the time. IF we expect that there is a RAW and a RAI in combination with some common sense, we have several facts:

Bone density/lacing makes the bones harder and gives some weight, therefore you do more damage. Logical? Yes, i would say so.
Hardliner gloves have a hard material attached to the knuckles, so your knuckles get harder and therefore you do more damage. Logical? Yes, i would say so.
Critical strike magically makes your attacks more powerful as if you had a higher strenght and therefore you do more damage. Logical? Yes, i would say so.
Piercing strike magically "forwards" your unarmed attack some centimeter so that you bypass armor. Logical? It´s magic.

Question No.1) Does Critical strike stack with all the other options? - Why not?

Question No.2) Does hardliner gloves stack with bone density/lacing?
- I would say no. If you wear hard material over hard material, the harder one wins. If the gloves are softer than your knuckles, it would even be a disadvantage because it would dampen your hits like with boxing gloves.

Question No.3) Hardliner and critical strike?
- Why not?

Question No.4) hardliner and piercing strike? RAW doesn´t say anything else. Ok, gloves are a weapon, but we should´t be nitpicking here. Nitpicking is definitely not included in the thoughts of our Dev´s, so nitpicking is always wrong. ^^ If we allow bone density, we have to allow gloves as well.

[TheOOB]

And again we discuss the same topic. Nice how things come back, and back, and back...all the time. IF we expect that there is a RAW and a RAI in combination with some common sense, we have several facts:

Bone density/lacing makes the bones harder and gives some weight, therefore you do more damage. Logical? Yes, i would say so.
Hardliner gloves have a hard material attached to the knuckles, so your knuckles get harder and therefore you do more damage. Logical? Yes, i would say so.
Critical strike magically makes your attacks more powerful as if you had a higher strenght and therefore you do more damage. Logical? Yes, i would say so.
Piercing strike magically "forwards" your unarmed attack some centimeter so that you bypass armor. Logical? It´s magic.

Question No.1) Does Critical strike stack with all the other options? - Why not?

Question No.2) Does hardliner gloves stack with bone density/lacing?
- I would say no. If you wear hard material over hard material, the harder one wins. If the gloves are softer than your knuckles, it would even be a disadvantage because it would dampen your hits like with boxing gloves.

Question No.3) Hardliner and critical strike?
- Why not?

Question No.4) hardliner and piercing strike? RAW doesn´t say anything else. Ok, gloves are a weapon, but we should´t be nitpicking here. Nitpicking is definitely not included in the thoughts of our Dev´s, so nitpicking is always wrong. ^^ If we allow bone density, we have to allow gloves as well.

You're logic is flawed. The book says critical strike is for unarmed attacks, hardliner gloves is a weapon, they don't work together, case closed, end of story. Saying anything else is a houserule, which really doesn't have any place in a discussion about the rules of the game. Bone lacing works with critical strike because the rules support that synergy(see my above post), but gloves do not.

Why not is a silly thing to say for questions 1 and 3, because it a)doesn't show any logic or evidence at all, and b)there have been several posts in this thread explaining exact ally why not(for an extra one, do you realize how broken allowing critical strike to stack with a weapon focus would be). Question number 2 arrives at the right end point, but through the wrong path. Bone lacing enhances you're unarmed damage, hardliners are not unarmed attacks, ergo no synergy. Question 4 is just bizarre with no basis in the game. One thing effects unarmed attacks, which critical strike also effects. One thing is a weapon that happens to use the unarmed combat skill, there is no reason for your conclusion to ever be arrived at as they are different situations. According to your logic if we let people carry pistols in their house they should also be allowed to carry nuclear warheads. They are vaguely related, but completely different circumstances.

[MK Ultra]

I alow BL/BDA to stack with CS & PS. I also used to alow HLG to stack with it (even with BDA/BL, as the main point about the gloves was always the added waight for me). I can see why ppl would not alow the gloves and I think they are right, by raw, however I don´t see it as a big deal. For shockgloves, I would not let them stack, however (the damage does not come from the punch itself). Now Weaponfocus Gloves (which I alow) are tricky, but I´d still say they are ok, there are things way more broken then that.

Then again, I would also alow an "Unarmed Combat Weapon Focus", that just augments you unarmed attacks. I would also alow an advanced (twice the cost?) version of Critical strike, that augments melee atacks with a certain type of weapon.

[Machiavelli]

You're logic is flawed. The book says critical strike is for unarmed attacks, hardliner gloves is a weapon, they don't work together, case closed, end of story. Saying anything else is a houserule, which really doesn't have any place in a discussion about the rules of the game. Bone lacing works with critical strike because the rules support that synergy(see my above post), but gloves do not.

Why not is a silly thing to say for questions 1 and 3, because it a)doesn't show any logic or evidence at all, and b)there have been several posts in this thread explaining exact ally why not(for an extra one, do you realize how broken allowing critical strike to stack with a weapon focus would be). Question number 2 arrives at the right end point, but through the wrong path. Bone lacing enhances you're unarmed damage, hardliners are not unarmed attacks, ergo no synergy. Question 4 is just bizarre with no basis in the game. One thing effects unarmed attacks, which critical strike also effects. One thing is a weapon that happens to use the unarmed combat skill, there is no reason for your conclusion to ever be arrived at as they are different situations. According to your logic if we let people carry pistols in their house they should also be allowed to carry nuclear warheads. They are vaguely related, but completely different circumstances.

Maybe you should have read my answer more carefully to see the logic in it. I explicitely differ between the RAW and the RAI through logical means. Of course HLG are weapons, but it is logical to differ it from powers like critical strike? No, it isn´t. The power makes you hit with more power, the gloves makes you knuckles that are used for hitting harder. So it is absolutely logical that the SHOULD stack.

[Saint Sithney]

Bone Lacing and Bone Density change the DV of your unarmed attack, they are not in an of themselves a weapon, whereas hand razors, spurs, and hardliner gloves are a weapon. The confusion here is that "Unarmed Combat" the skill, and "Unarmed Attack" the natural weapon all characters have share very similar names, which is something of a design over-site. It would be better if the skill was named "Martial Arts" or "Brawl"

The crunch, which is the rules part, says it "increases the character’s Damage Value in unarmed combat" and its use must be "declared with the Unarmed Combat attack." So, to use the Hardliner gloves, you make an Unarmed Combat skill check, which would make it an Unarmed Combat attack (if that phraseology means anything at all..) thereby allowing the character to declare the use of Critical Strike and to increase the damage value.

he power makes you hit with more power, the gloves makes you knuckles that are used for hitting harder. So it is absolutely logical that the SHOULD stack.

That assumes that Adepts everywhere go around exclusively hitting people with a closed fist. Really, that's maybe 1/4th of H2H combat.

[Machiavelli]

If you want to have the benefits of the HLG´s you should try to use your closed fist. Everything else would be very difficult to explain to the GM. ^^

[Fauxknight]

Shock gloves are unarmed as well, if you allow critical strike to add to hardliner gloves because it uses the unarmed combat skill then you must allow it to be used with shock gloves as well.

I believe balance wise you have to rule one of two ways:

1. Hardliner gloves are a weapon.

2. Hardliner gloves are not a weapon and are simply bonus unarmed damage.

Option 1 dissallows use of critical strike while option 2 dissallows use of a weapon focus, you can not have both apply to the same attack. Officially I believe option 1 is the correct rules interpretation, but option 2 allows a semblence of balance while looking at the issue in a different light.

[Ascalaphus]

It depends on what you think Critical Strike does. Is it a kind of Strength additive? Then it makes sense to stack it.

On the other hand, maybe it's something diffirent: maybe it channels destructive mana into whatever you're touching. Personally, I prefer that view. It also makes it less of a shoe-in to stack it with everything; perhaps you can't channel the mana through an in-between object, like the gloves. You first blow would disintegrate the gloves.

I prefer not to let them stack, because I like the idea of different ways to be good at "just hands" combat, instead of a pile of stuff that everyone just stacks together.

As for BDA and Hardliners: I'd say that BDA already hardens your knuckles, and that it renders the Hardliners redundant. They would still convert the minimal damage from (plastic?) BL to Physical though.

[Machiavelli]

Argh....ok, one question: which one of our forum-members is a official or semi-official developer? Maybe we simply ask them, how they would rule the problem. Finally....