Hardliner Gloves do they stack/be used with adept powers (such as Critical Strike or Penetrating Strike)?

They are a weapon, which means that though they use the "Unarmed Skill", you are not unarmed.

This seems to be a matter of opinion. It's always stacked where I play.

I don't see why it shouldn't work. Critical Strike hurts, and critical strike with densiplast knuckles hurts even more.

They are writing about unarmed attacks, because it doesn't work with katanas, knifes and clubs and all the weapons that are in the basic book. The hardline gloves are from a book that came out much later. I doubt that they were meaning gloves that use the unarmed combat skill with that line.

I wouldn't let them stack, but I would let them modify base damage.
IOW, Hardliners + crit strike 4 = [(str/2+1)+4]P

But with Bone density Augmentation it would use the higher of the two bases.
So, Hardliners + BDA3 = (str/2)+1 < (str/2+2) = (str/2+2)
Hardliners + BDA3 + crit strike 4 = (str/2+1)+4 < (str/2+2)+4 = (str/2+2)+4

I see it sort of like giving up the option of doing S damage in order to do an extra P.

Meh. If you let gloves work, what's your rationale for not letting knives work? Katanas? Laser axes? They're still connected to those magic hands.

When you're using the hardliner gloves, you're still in "unarmed combat" from the rules piece Garvel cited. I see no reason not to stack benefits.

Well not really, no, it's not a matter of opinion. While the unarmed combat skill can be used with certain weapons, the unarmed adept powers can only be used when unarmed. Hardliner gloves are a weapon, ergo you are armed, and critical strike does not work. You can do it however you want, just relize making them stack is a house rules, and not RAW or even RAI. If you want to make the gloves better, make them a weapon focus. If you want to use critical strike, be unarmed. You can't mix and match by rules.

I'm with the rest along the lines that hardliner gloves don't stack with Critical Strike. The gloves are an exotic weapon with the exception that you use the Unarmed Combat skill by virtue of the last sentence describing the gloves themselves, but that doesn't make them 'not a weapon'.

And to add a few examples to Yerameyahu's post, if you're allowing hardliner gloves to work with Critical Strike what's to stop a cyber-adept from applying critical strike to hand razors, hand blades, or spurs as well?

Hand Blades, Hand Razors, and Spurs use the Blades or Exotic Melee Weapon skills, not Unarmed Combat. Critical Strike only increases the Damage Value of Unarmed Combat attacks.

If you allow Bone Density Augmentaiton or Bone Lacing to add to unarmed, why not let the gloves work?
After all, auras extend past clothing, and unlike other weapons, it doesn't change how you attack. Every motion remains the same.


The real problem comes when guy wants to get Hardliner Weapon Foci.

It's nice if there's an Augmented alternative to most Adept powers. Therefore I'd choose not to let Hardliners and BDA/BL stack with Critical Strike/Killing Hands/Etc.

I also think that nearly all stages of BDA and BL make Hardliners redundant.

Hardliners are just the cheapest, least invasive option.

/facepalm

I was referring to this previous post in regards to the cyberweapons I mentioned above...

[Edit:] I'm not going to have anything to do with this thread on either side. Comment retracted.

So your trying to claim that even though my character uses unarmed combat skill to attack with the gloves, she's not in fact in unarmed combat.
Is that really what your saying, because that's very counter intuitive and illogical.

That is wrong, and not at all what the rules say. SR4A, page 195



First sentance cleary states that it increases the damage value of unarmed attacks. Wielding a weapon makes you armed, ergo, does not work with the power. It is possible the last sentence may confuse people, but the structure of the sentence is restrictive, not additive. It mentions that you must declare the powers use when making an unarmed combat attack, but it does not say or imply that it can be used for anything other than an unarmed attack. The rules are right there, saying critical strike works with hardliner gloves is a house rule.



Bone Lacing and Bone Density change the DV of your unarmed attack, they are not in an of themselves a weapon, whereas hand razors, spurs, and hardliner gloves are a weapon. The confusion here is that "Unarmed Combat" the skill, and "Unarmed Attack" the natural weapon all characters have share very similar names, which is something of a design over-site. It would be better if the skill was named "Martial Arts" or "Brawl"

And again we discuss the same topic. Nice how things come back, and back, and back...all the time. IF we expect that there is a RAW and a RAI in combination with some common sense, we have several facts:

Bone density/lacing makes the bones harder and gives some weight, therefore you do more damage. Logical? Yes, i would say so.
Hardliner gloves have a hard material attached to the knuckles, so your knuckles get harder and therefore you do more damage. Logical? Yes, i would say so.
Critical strike magically makes your attacks more powerful as if you had a higher strenght and therefore you do more damage. Logical? Yes, i would say so.
Piercing strike magically "forwards" your unarmed attack some centimeter so that you bypass armor. Logical? It´s magic.

Question No.1) Does Critical strike stack with all the other options? - Why not?

Question No.2) Does hardliner gloves stack with bone density/lacing?
- I would say no. If you wear hard material over hard material, the harder one wins. If the gloves are softer than your knuckles, it would even be a disadvantage because it would dampen your hits like with boxing gloves.

Question No.3) Hardliner and critical strike?
- Why not?

Question No.4) hardliner and piercing strike? RAW doesn´t say anything else. Ok, gloves are a weapon, but we should´t be nitpicking here. Nitpicking is definitely not included in the thoughts of our Dev´s, so nitpicking is always wrong. ^^ If we allow bone density, we have to allow gloves as well.

You're logic is flawed. The book says critical strike is for unarmed attacks, hardliner gloves is a weapon, they don't work together, case closed, end of story. Saying anything else is a houserule, which really doesn't have any place in a discussion about the rules of the game. Bone lacing works with critical strike because the rules support that synergy(see my above post), but gloves do not.

Why not is a silly thing to say for questions 1 and 3, because it a)doesn't show any logic or evidence at all, and b)there have been several posts in this thread explaining exact ally why not(for an extra one, do you realize how broken allowing critical strike to stack with a weapon focus would be). Question number 2 arrives at the right end point, but through the wrong path. Bone lacing enhances you're unarmed damage, hardliners are not unarmed attacks, ergo no synergy. Question 4 is just bizarre with no basis in the game. One thing effects unarmed attacks, which critical strike also effects. One thing is a weapon that happens to use the unarmed combat skill, there is no reason for your conclusion to ever be arrived at as they are different situations. According to your logic if we let people carry pistols in their house they should also be allowed to carry nuclear warheads. They are vaguely related, but completely different circumstances.

I alow BL/BDA to stack with CS & PS. I also used to alow HLG to stack with it (even with BDA/BL, as the main point about the gloves was always the added waight for me). I can see why ppl would not alow the gloves and I think they are right, by raw, however I don´t see it as a big deal. For shockgloves, I would not let them stack, however (the damage does not come from the punch itself). Now Weaponfocus Gloves (which I alow) are tricky, but I´d still say they are ok, there are things way more broken then that.

Then again, I would also alow an "Unarmed Combat Weapon Focus", that just augments you unarmed attacks. I would also alow an advanced (twice the cost?) version of Critical strike, that augments melee atacks with a certain type of weapon.

Maybe you should have read my answer more carefully to see the logic in it. I explicitely differ between the RAW and the RAI through logical means. Of course HLG are weapons, but it is logical to differ it from powers like critical strike? No, it isn´t. The power makes you hit with more power, the gloves makes you knuckles that are used for hitting harder. So it is absolutely logical that the SHOULD stack.

The crunch, which is the rules part, says it "increases the character’s Damage Value in unarmed combat" and its use must be "declared with the Unarmed Combat attack." So, to use the Hardliner gloves, you make an Unarmed Combat skill check, which would make it an Unarmed Combat attack (if that phraseology means anything at all..) thereby allowing the character to declare the use of Critical Strike and to increase the damage value.



That assumes that Adepts everywhere go around exclusively hitting people with a closed fist. Really, that's maybe 1/4th of H2H combat.

If you want to have the benefits of the HLG´s you should try to use your closed fist. Everything else would be very difficult to explain to the GM. ^^

Shock gloves are unarmed as well, if you allow critical strike to add to hardliner gloves because it uses the unarmed combat skill then you must allow it to be used with shock gloves as well.

I believe balance wise you have to rule one of two ways:

1. Hardliner gloves are a weapon.

2. Hardliner gloves are not a weapon and are simply bonus unarmed damage.

Option 1 dissallows use of critical strike while option 2 dissallows use of a weapon focus, you can not have both apply to the same attack. Officially I believe option 1 is the correct rules interpretation, but option 2 allows a semblence of balance while looking at the issue in a different light.

It depends on what you think Critical Strike does. Is it a kind of Strength additive? Then it makes sense to stack it.

On the other hand, maybe it's something diffirent: maybe it channels destructive mana into whatever you're touching. Personally, I prefer that view. It also makes it less of a shoe-in to stack it with everything; perhaps you can't channel the mana through an in-between object, like the gloves. You first blow would disintegrate the gloves.

I prefer not to let them stack, because I like the idea of different ways to be good at "just hands" combat, instead of a pile of stuff that everyone just stacks together.

As for BDA and Hardliners: I'd say that BDA already hardens your knuckles, and that it renders the Hardliners redundant. They would still convert the minimal damage from (plastic?) BL to Physical though.

Argh....ok, one question: which one of our forum-members is a official or semi-official developer? Maybe we simply ask them, how they would rule the problem. Finally....

I don't like Hardliner Gloves, because they restrict me to boxing. But ellbowing, kicking and headbutting are so much more fun...bonelaced skull anybody?

I'm dancing here with Machiavelli and all other "pro synergy effect" Poster
For me a Hardliner Glove is (just) a situational Modifier to unarmed Combat itself(you wear them ,you get a bonus, you got sth else with a bigger Bonus,bad Luck)
So it stacks with the Ki/Adept Powers just like Bone density 'ware

with a Synergy Dance
Medicineman

Why do they restrict you ?
you just don't get the +1 Bonus if you "Knee sbdy in the Groin" thats all


with a Dance from the Hip
Medicineman

If you use the Shock gloves to hit some one, then you should get the bonus from critical strike, but you wont get to use the electrical damage code then.

It wouldn't be too broken. It would be broken if you fought in a Bud Spencer and Terence Hill film. But in shadowrun your opponents will have guns. Anything that has to do with meele is relative harmless for powergaming purpose in SR. Its easy for the GM to find a challenge for you. Random dude with a gun.

The thing with the shock gloves is easy to answer. You have to choose between shock damage and punching damage anyway. You can't have both.
FAQ:



I love that quote. I wish people would consider it more. The devs had to write "unarmed attacks", because otherwise it would stack with katanas and knifes and stuff. But you are definitely overinterpreting it. RAI is more important than Nitpicking RAW.
"No, Bob, you can't shoot with that crossbow. NO ONE can shoot with a crossbow, EVER!"


What you are talking about is more Killing Hands than Critical Strike. Note that Critical Strike alone doesn't ignore immunity to normal weapons. I surely would, if it would "channel destructive mana into whatever you're touching".

Its the normal case for shadowrunners to wear (normal) gloves to not leave fingerprints. If Critical strike was incompatible with any kind of gloves that would be surely mentioned in the description, because that would be f***ing important.

Using that logic, though, would indicate shredded armor and clothing and no effect on the actual target. If Gloves interfere, so should armor and clothing. Bad Logic...

This thread is everything wrong with dumpshock.

Especially since it crops up repeatedly... But no worries.

Yeh i know this question (or ones like it) get brought up ALOT, but wanted to see if people had reached any sort of rule. Reason it came up in our group was my adept got his hands on a fairly large sum of cash (well large for our group) but having most of the basics gear, it was a question of what can i get to help boast him in combat Weapon Foci see ov choice, but with unarmed combat skill the HLG seemed only way to achieve this. Thanks for your inputs, looks like we are no closer to an answer other then "house rule".

Damn, i want some dev´s and a final statement. So if this topic will ever come up again (probably next week...^^) i can point at the answer and say "Sh**t the f**k up and use the search-function before you quote".....i always wanted to say that. ^^

Aww, come on.
We haven't even pointed out that the FAQ isn't rules and that asking the Devs is worthless because who understand the system have all gone.

Right, we could also start discussing if direct combat spells are broken, or even better, if magic at all is broken...THAT would be the worst....i love it.^^

You haven't mentioned Hitler yet, too.
However, both of those are bound to happen, and by the state of things, pretty soon.

just happend

Shock gloves have listed weapon damage and hardliner gloves have listed damage.

Shock gloves use unarmed combat and hardliner gloves use unarmed combat.

Shock gloves can deal thier listed damage instead of unarmed damage and hardliner gloves can deal thier listed weapon damage instead of unarmed damage.

The only difference between the two items is that one has fixed base damage instead of str based damage, just like a stun baton vs mace, they use the same skill, but one is fixed and one is str based. The only argument to be able to use critical strike with hardliner gloves is based purely on the fact that they use the unarmed combat skill. Basically the argument says your unarmed damage becomes str/2+1 if you choose to use your hardliner gloves, well guess what, with shock gloves you can choose to have your unarmed damage deal 5S(e) if you choose to strike with the shock gloves. In this respect shock gloves are 100% identical to hardliner gloves. If you allow critical strike with hardliner gloves you allow it with shock gloves.

I'm still of the opinion that they are both weapons inelligable for critical strike, but I also understand that they must strictly fall into one category or the other, only cheese monkies get to stack the bonus dice from weapon foci with the bonus damage from critical strike. In other words allwoing them to stack pretty much invalidates every other form of melee combat available to adepts and mystic adepts. By reasoning that other forms of combat should not be invalidated, you can not allow them to stack.

The worst part is that the people who say that Hardliners are *not* weapons for the purpose of Critical Strike/etc. are the same people who'll claim they *are* weapons for the purposes of mods, Two-Weapon Defense, Parrying…

and making them weapon foci

If it's not a weapon for "unarmed" purposes, how can it be a weapon focus?

If adepts can stack all these things, is there any way non-Adepts can keep up?

Yeah, they can only be one or the other.
We classify them as weapons at our table, since they are indeed a weapon (If some one does not think so, wear a pair and beat someone within an inch of their life, and see how the cops classify the assault). So, no Critical Strike/Penetrating Strike applicability. But then, they ARE useable as Weapon Foci, and for two weapon defense, etc.

Of course they can. They buy a gun.

It is a Balance thing. If it counts for Both, then you have an unbalanced classification. A Non-Weapon Weapon Focus to use your question. Hardliners are EIITHER a Weapon or they are Not, they cannot be both.

Bone Lacing goes a long way to balancing the field with Adepts. After all, Adepts are often loathe to reduce their magic rating through augmentation. For those that wish to remain pure, well, They suffer the drawbacks of not having Augmentation to support them. For those who do not mind a bit of Essence loss, then Augmentation, along with Adept abilities, creates an unparalleled combatant, who has the best of both worlds. But even Still, it is just Melee Combat, which is often subpar compared to Ranged Combat.

No, in the second case, there is aboslutely no way a non-adept can maintain the pace.

So the argument is HLG are weapons, therefor if you use them its not an unarmed attack?

Does that mean then that, in SR, if I'm watch an Boxing match it's not a contest of unarmed combat but a weapon duel?

The intent should be interpreted from the Skill used in making the attack.

HLG use the Unarmed Skill, therefor an unamred attack.
Knives use the Blades Skills, therefor not an unarmed attack.

The nitpicking is pointless.

The damage bonus from HLG is situational anyway.
Did you hit him with your fist, bonus.
Did you do anything else (knee, kick, throw, jump on, elbow, bite, headbutt, trip, push, etc.), no bonus.

Never though of HLG as a weapon focus, but yes why couldn't you.
You could enchant a brick and call it a weapon focus.
The name weapon focus doesn't mean the object to be enchanted must be a "weapon" only that it will be used as one.

I find some of the comments rather amusing myself. I feel bad for all these adept martial artists in some of these games who have to deal with all of their clothes spontaneously exploding off their bodies as they fight (since Unarmed Attack deals with your whole body, not just your fists; thus kneeing someone causes your pants to rip to shreds, kicking someone in the face causes your boots to explode, and throwing someone with your whole body leads to a naked adept shivering in the cold). Or even worse, the ones who are essentially arguing that you have to be naked to do any damage at all. I mean, if one pair of gloves doesn't work, why should any others?

That would be a great new topic title:

Finally room for some good disscusion

Don't forget that the gloves will have possession spirits in them with element auras.

I don't understand your point, Scratch. Are you saying that doesn't (or shouldn't) happen?