Hardliner Gloves, Hardliner Gloves question Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So the argument is HLG are weapons, therefor if you use them its not an unarmed attack?

Does that mean then that, in SR, if I'm watch an Boxing match it's not a contest of unarmed combat but a weapon duel?

The intent should be interpreted from the Skill used in making the attack.

HLG use the Unarmed Skill, therefor an unamred attack.
Knives use the Blades Skills, therefor not an unarmed attack.

The nitpicking is pointless.

The damage bonus from HLG is situational anyway.
Did you hit him with your fist, bonus.
Did you do anything else (knee, kick, throw, jump on, elbow, bite, headbutt, trip, push, etc.), no bonus.

Never though of HLG as a weapon focus, but yes why couldn't you.
You could enchant a brick and call it a weapon focus.
The name weapon focus doesn't mean the object to be enchanted must be a "weapon" only that it will be used as one.

You cannot argue that a Hardlined Glove is not a Weapon, it most definitely is. The only benefit is that you get to use the Unarmed Combat skill to attack with it. It is essentially a weapon that requires no skill to use; you may use it retlativly unskilled, as it were.
Just because you use Unarmed Combat does not make it a Non-Weapon.

Are Brass Knuckles a Weapon? According to the Police, they are...
Are Karatand (HLG's) a Weapon? According to the Police, they are...
Are Fistloads a Weapon? Again, according to the Police, they are...

Incidentally, in game, you would use Unarmed Combat when using any of these weapons... Amazing... THEY ARE STILL WEAPONS.
ANd yes, yuou could make the HLG into a weapon Focus... they are a weapon after all...
And yes, you could make a Brick a Weapon Focus, but guess what, IT IS AN IMPROVISED WEAPON when used to harm someone, not a building material. It becomes a pooor man's club.

[Adarael]

That would be a great new topic title:

Finally room for some good disscusion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Hitler invented Hardliner Gloves, summoned his Ally Spirit ("Lebensraum") into the gloves, and ordered it to use Death Touch every time he struck an enemy.

[Ol' Scratch]

Are Brass Knuckles a Weapon? According to the Police, they are...
Are Karatand (HLG's) a Weapon? According to the Police, they are...
Are Fistloads a Weapon? Again, according to the Police, they are...

Is a trained martial artist, especially one who received that training in the military, considered to be using a deadly weapon? According to the Police, they are...

Now what?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Is a trained martial artist, especially one who received that training in the military, considered to be using a deadly weapon? According to the Police, they are...

Now what?

Indeed, which puts him in a Pickle...
Unarmed Combat can be deadly, especially if you have been trained. BUT, if you augment that ability with a weapon, well it is still a weapon.

The percentage of people who are considered "Deadly Weapons' in their own right is vanishingly small. Anyone can grab a fistload and be charged with Assault with a Deadly Weapon. If you cannot differentiate between the two, well, I am not sure what more to say. The fact that Such things are considered WEAPONS should be telling, though, regardless of what "Skill" is being used.

So... Again, you cannot use the Hardliner Gloves as both a Weapon and a Non-Weapon for game purposes. You should pick a classification and stick with it. If they are Weapons, then Adept abilities do not apply, but they can be used as Foci. If they are not Weapons, then Adept abilities apply, but cannot be Foci. You cannot have your cake and eat it too...

[Mäx]

So... Again, you cannot use the Hardliner Gloves as both a Weapon and a Non-Weapon for game purposes. You should pick a classification and stick with it. If they are Weapons, then Adept abilities do not apply, but they can be used as Foci. If they are not Weapons, then Adept abilities apply, but cannot be Foci. You cannot have your cake and eat it too...

HLG's are a weapon, but by the rules it's still unarmed combat if you attack someone with them and as such adept powers work just fine.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

HLG's are a weapon, but by the rules it's still unarmed combat if you attack someone with them and as such adept powers work just fine.

In this I disagree... as do a lot of others apparently.

[Ol' Scratch]

Indeed, which puts him in a Pickle...
Unarmed Combat can be deadly, especially if you have been trained. BUT, if you augment that ability with a weapon, well it is still a weapon.

You missed the point completely.

According to your argument, that makes anyone who's trained in a martial art (or pretty much any training of the Unarmed Combat skill) completely unable to do any damage at all with adept powers because, you know, they're using a weapon -- namely themselves. Or in other words, your argument doesn't work whatsoever.

The problem with 4th Edition's Hardliner Gloves is that they didn't think it through (shock shock) and gave it a Damage Code rather than simply adding a point or two of damage to Unarmed Combat like they did previously. It's a flaw in the rules, plain and simple.

Of course I think its stupid that most of those adept powers only work with unarmed combat to begin with. Talk about shoehorning players into narrow little boxes. Unarmed Combat should have one or two powers that make it competitive with weapons, but that's about it. Most of those powers should simply be limited to melee combat instead, especially considering that most of the concepts associated with them in fiction are. Ie, flaming swords, hammers that can smash through walls, etc.

[Yerameyahu]

Agreed: mistakes were made, unarmed is harsh, and the powers are possibly wonky.

However, if someone's going to use those basic rules, weapon focus hardliner gloves with all the fixin's completely break it. Maybe it's fine if you're the only unarmed person in the group, and you're being compared to armed characters. I dunno.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You missed the point completely.

According to your argument, that makes anyone who's trained in a martial art (or pretty much any training of the Unarmed Combat skill) completely unable to do any damage at all with adept powers because, you know, they're using a weapon -- namely themselves. Or in other words, your argument doesn't work whatsoever.

The problem with 4th Edition's Hardliner Gloves is that they didn't think it through (shock shock) and gave it a Damage Code rather than simply adding a point or two of damage to Unarmed Combat like they did previously. It's a flaw in the rules, plain and simple.

Of course I think its stupid that most of those adept powers only work with unarmed combat to begin with. Talk about shoehorning players into narrow little boxes. Unarmed Combat should have one or two powers that make it competitive with weapons, but that's about it. Most of those powers should simply be limited to melee combat instead, especially considering that most of the concepts associated with them in fiction are. Ie, flaming swords, hammers that can smash through walls, etc.

Well, Doc.. Ummm Old Scratch, as always, you bend things so out of shape that they are unrecognizeable. Unarmed combat, at its core, is a weaponless system. Unfortunately, we, as humans, have figured out ways to use the core skills, and yet weaponize it to some extent. The extent that an Adept (or higly skilled Martial artist) becomes a weapon unto itself is BECAUSE of the Adept abilities (Martial Arts IRL), not because of something they use in conjunction with it. The Adept (or Martial Artist) himself, becomes a weapon (whic is the whole point of the Adept abilities), he does not WIELD a weapon. Huge Difference. Sheesh...

Whether you agree with the rules is completely irrelevant, the book indicates that the Hardliner Gloves are WEAPONS (You cannot even argue that distinction), so they should not gain the benefit of the Adept abilities. They will, however, gain the benefioot of being a Weapon Focus. Now, if you do not like that, you may reverse that idea (it is only a single extra point of damage after all) and allow them to be cumulative with the Adept abilities, but if you do, you should not allow them to be Weapon Foci. The Reason that the Adept abilities do not woprk with weapons is because Weapons can have their own bonuses through the application of the Foci rules.

As for your final comparisons.
Flaming Swords are possible in the game, no need for adept abilities to make it work.
Wall Smashing Hammers as well, if I remember correctly (though I prefer a judicious application of explosive force over just pounding away with a hammer, nothing like alerting your opposition to the fact that you are there).

The goal of unarmed Adept abilities is to allow them to compete with teh armed melee capabilities, and yet not wield a weapon. I think that they do this pretty well. Of course, an Unarmed combatant can do things a Melee Weapon specialist cannot, but I would hold that it works both ways.

Anyways...

[Ol' Scratch]

Well, Doc.. Ummm Old Scratch, as always, you bend things so out of shape that they are unrecognizeable. Unarmed combat, at its core, is a weaponless system. Unfortunately, we, as humans, have figured out ways to use the core skills, and yet weaponize it to some extent. The extent that an Adept (or higly skilled Martial artist) becomes a weapon unto itself is BECAUSE of the Adept abilities (Martial Arts IRL), not because of something they use in conjunction with it. The Adept (or Martial Artist) himself, becomes a weapon (whic is the whole point of the Adept abilities), he does not WIELD a weapon. Huge Difference. Sheesh...

No, you just have your head stuck in the sand.

Your argument, at least the one I quoted, was that Hardliner Gloves, Brass Knuckles, and etc. were considered "weapons" by "the Police," thus they didn't qualify for the various adept powers that are restricted to unarmed combat. Unfortunately for you and said argument, the same holds true for trained martial artists; they're considered "weapons" by "the Police," thus they don't qualify for the various adept powers that are restricted to unarmed combat.

Take note of the underlined text and how they're, you know, identical.

[Mäx]

Whether you agree with the rules is completely irrelevant, the book indicates that the Hardliner Gloves are WEAPONS (You cannot even argue that distinction), so they should not gain the benefit of the Adept abilities. They will, however, gain the benefioot of being a Weapon Focus. Now, if you do not like that, you may reverse that idea (it is only a single extra point of damage after all) and allow them to be cumulative with the Adept abilities, but if you do, you should not allow them to be Weapon Foci. The Reason that the Adept abilities do not woprk with weapons is because Weapons can have their own bonuses through the application of the Foci rules.

But those powers boost unarmed combat and using HLG's is still unarmed combat, so by the rules nothink stops them from working together.
Them being weapons have absolutely nothing to do with the adept powers working with them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, you just have your head stuck in the sand.

Your argument, at least the one I quoted, was that Hardliner Gloves, Brass Knuckles, and etc. were considered "weapons" by "the Police," thus they didn't qualify for the various adept powers that are restricted to unarmed combat. Unfortunately for you and said argument, the same holds true for trained martial artists; they're considered "weapons" by "the Police," thus they don't qualify for the various adept powers that are restricted to unarmed combat.

Take note of the underlined text and how they're, you know, identical.

Except you obviously miss the point. The difference is that in one case the WEAPONS are wielded BY the Individual, they are EXTERNAL to the character. In the other, the character IS the WEAPON, they are NOT ARMED with any WEAPONS at all, and in fact ARE UNARMED. ALL the Adept qualities demand is that the Adept be UNARMED to use his abilities. Equip[ping Hardliner Gloves no longer satisfies that condition, because they now have a Weapon in Hand. even if the skill used is still unarmed combat.

Talk about someone with their head in the sand... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

No, I didn't miss the point. You just offered a really bad argument and I called you on it. Note that my responses have been directed solely at that specific argument, which was that since "the Police" consider something a "weapon," it cannot be used with unarmed adept powers.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, I didn't miss the point. You just offered a really bad argument and I called you on it. Note that my responses have been directed solely at that specific argument, which was that since "the Police" consider something a "weapon," it cannot be used with unarmed adept powers.

Again, you use the argument... "Somthing"... not Someone...
Regardless, my point stands. HAadliner Gloves are a Weapon, and you cannot deny this line of reasoning.

[Slide7X]

I didn't say HLG aren't weapons. They are weapons, in the sense they they increase the damage potential of an attack.
But, you make an Unarmed Attack with them. HLG are an Unarmed Weapon.

If you hit a guy in the face with your bare fist, that is an unarmed attack.
If you hit the same guy with your fist, while wearing gloves, that is also an unarmed attack. Weather you consider the gloves a weapon or not.
If you hit the same poor guy with a Blade or Club that if entirely different, especially in terms of technique.

In Unarmed Combat, generally, you use you fists (or whatever) to do the damage.
If your armed with a club/blade, you use your hands (with other things) to maneuver the deadly instrument into doing the damage.

In SR4 Unarmed damage doesn't mean, not using a weapon, it means using your Hands/Legs/Head/Whole Body etc. to make the attack.
Perhaps, as someone else mentioned, Unarmed is a little misleading a name for the skill.

[Mäx]

Regardless, my point stands. HAadliner Gloves are a Weapon, and you cannot deny this line of reasoning.

There no need to deny that, as it being a weapon has nothing to do with the adept powers working with them.

[Yerameyahu]

Not by RAW.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not by RAW.

Indeed... Which is the ultimate point here... RAW... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mäx]

Yes by RAW there nothing stopping you from using HLG's with adept powers that boost unarmed combat damage.
You absolutely right about that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

Hmm.

SR4A p.122: "Unarmed Combat skill (also known as hand-to-hand combat) governs the use of combat techniques based solely on the use of the individual’s own body parts. In addition to Boxing, this skill covers such combat styles as Oriental martial arts and Brazilian Capoeira. It also covers the use of certain cyber-implants, such as shock hands."

SR4A p. 157, Melee Combat Summary: "Weapon skill + Reaction (parry), Unarmed Combat + Reaction (block), Dodge + Reaction (dodge)" [Note that this is how how they distinguish between unarmed combat and the use of weapon skills in the actual rules; it's based solely on the skill being used.]

SR4A p. 195, Critical Strike: "This power uses magic to increase the Damage Value of your unarmed attacks, as you strike with more proficiency and power. Each level of Critical Strike increases the character’s Damage Value in unarmed combat by +1."

SR4A p. 196, Killing Hands: "This power uses magic to turn unarmed attacks into lethal, physical damage. When participating in unarmed combat, you may do normal Stun damage or declare the use of Killing Hands and inflict an equal amount of Physical damage instead. Killing Hands may be used with Critical Strike (p. 195)."

Arsenal p. 39: "Hardliner Gloves: These stylish leather gloves provide an extra bit of punch when the chips are down. Each glove contains a thin layer of densiplast set into the knuckles and along the ridges of the hand. A character wearing these using Unarmed Combat to attack."

Strange. I don't see anything in any of these quotes that says one must be literally unarmed, but instead say they only work in unarmed combat. Nothing at all like "only bare fists work." Which, as both the text for Unarmed Combat skill and Hardliner Gloves points out, the use of Hardliner Gloves is. In fact, I can't find a single rule that actually says one must be weaponless to engage in unarmed combat. As pointed out in the second quote, and the related text, it's all about the skill being used, not the weapon (whether it be a bare fist, a gloved fist, a helmeted head butt, a clothed knee, a booted foot, or a Hardliner Glove). They're all the same as far as the rules are concerned.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't view RAW as the correct answer, personally, except by the occasional coincidence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Slide7X]

Strange. I don't see anything in any of these quotes that says one must be literally unarmed, but instead say they only work in unarmed combat. Nothing at all like "only bare fists work." Which, as both the text for Unarmed Combat skill and Hardliner Gloves points out, the use of Hardliner Gloves is. In fact, I can't find a single rule that actually says one must be weaponless to engage in unarmed combat. As pointed out in the second quote, and the related text, it's all about the skill being used, not the weapon (whether it be a bare fist, a gloved fist, a helmeted head butt, a clothed knee, a booted foot, or a Hardliner Glove). They're all the same as far as the rules are concerned.

This.

Because saying:

"I'm sorry Ironman you can't use unarmed combat to fight with that supervillan, as you are wear gauntlets as part of your armor and therefor count as armed."

Is silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Halinn]

It's really a quite different situation. The adept abilities only give you the extra power when you are fighting without your arms. Let them hang limp from your shoulders, then kick someone to death. Unarmed = no arms (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

No one is saying you can't use 'Unarmed' with gloves. The question is very specifically 'should Adept powers (Crit Strike, etc.) work with gloves?'.

[Ol' Scratch]

And as mentioned, the rules never say that those powers only work with bare body parts. Only that they only work in unarmed combat, which the rules regard as the use of the Unarmed Combat skill, which in turn includes things like Hardliner Gloves and various implanted weaponry.