The Classical Tradition, Because Street Magic didn't do it... Options

[NightmareX]

Shadowrunner13 did a rather nice take on the Egyptian tradition recently, so I thought I'd finish the job and take care of the Greco-Roman end of things. Let me know what you all think.

The Hellenic Tradition
Concept: Magicians following the Hellenic religion divide magic into the gifts of the Gods garnered through worship and sacrifice, interaction and trafficking with daemons (benign or malevolent spirits that act as intermediaries between men and the Gods), and the classical witchcraft of incantations, hexes, and potions.
Combat: Guardian spirits
Detection: Guidance spirits
Health: Plant spirits
Illusion: Water spirits
Manipulation: Man spirits
Drain: Willpower + Intuition

An enormously complex system interweaving magic and religion into a single whole, Neoclassical polytheism (also known as Hellenismos) started off with a shaky rebirth in the late 20th century as various reconstructionist groups both in Greece and elsewhere attempted to revive the worship of the old Greek gods. Initially, the movement faced stiff opposition in Greece itself from the Orthodox Christian church, but managed to put down small but firm roots in the old United States, England, and elsewhere in Europe. With the Awakening, the Greek core of the movement was revitalized as the Orthodox church and society as a whole struggled to come to terms with the resurgence of magic and the return of mythic creatures. These days Hellenismos enjoys the support of a small but significant portion of the population of the Federal Republic of Hellas as well as some groups in North America and Europe.

Awakened followers of Hellenismos are often referred to as exegetai (singular exegete, after the class of religious specialists of ancient Greece) in the Sixth World, and are often fulfill the role of neokoroi (priest or temple keeper) within Hellenismos cults. The Greco-Roman cosmology is inherently polytheistic, and most Hellenic magicians show at least some devotion to most if not all the Classical Gods. Some exegetai, however, prefer a closer relationship with a single deity who is adopted as a mentor spirit.

While intimately related to the Hermetic tradition via the works Pythagoras and Plato, Hellenismos places less emphasis on the reasoned approach to magic seen in the Hermetic tradition in favor of a more intuitive and ecstatic approach. Common rituals include devotions to the various gods in the form of prayers, dance, chants, votive offerings, and the occasional animal sacrifice as well as more common magical practices. Hellenic magicians traffic with a diverse array of spirits via the arts of conjuring, including such nature spirits as dryads, nymphs, and satyrs (plant spirits), naiads and sirens (water spirits), angelos messengers of the Gods and other daemons (guardian and guidance spirits), and the ghosts or shades of the dead (guardian spirits or spirits of man).

[Dashifen]

I wonder if it's worth adding something about Divination being a common initiate power. I'm thinking of the various oracles that were common throughout the ancient Greek world (e.g., Delphi).

[NightmareX]

I was thinking about cramming something like that in the last paragraph, but forgot to.

Actually, I was having a good deal of difficulty with the question of manifesting tradition or possession tradition. On one hand, manifesting lets you conjure up nymphs, spectral hounds and eagles (guardian spirits), shades, and Argonaut-esqe warriors (or skeletons per the movie versions) as guardian spirits.

But on the other hand, a possession tradition would allow guidance spirits to possess an individual and make a more genuine oracle. Possession by guardian spirits could recreate the likes of Achilles and Hercules, while possession by ghosts is always a good theme. Possession by water or plant spirits could be a tad odd though.

Further, while I was certain I wanted guardian and guidance spirits (for the noted reasons), I wasn't certain what to do with the other three. Spirits of Man, plant, and water felt the most right out of the 10, but beast spirits could have worked too.

[Dashifen]

Greece is also a rather geologically active area of the world, so Earth spirits might be venerated. As for possession vs. materialization, perhaps make a note that it can be taken as either as part of the specific practitioner's path. Then you can mention that the possession branch of this tradition has its root in the ancient oracles.

[NightmareX]

Regarding earth spirits, I was originally thinking of going with this set up:

Combat: Guardian spirits
Detection: Guidance spirits
Health: Water spirits
Illusion: Air spirits
Manipulation: Earth spirits

But ran into a couple of problems with that. First, it's exactly the same set up as the Bujinken ninjitsu tradition I wrote up - a minor consideration perhaps, but still distasteful to my sense of aesthetics. Second, and more important, after reviewing all the Greek myths I could think of (mentally that is ;) ) I couldn't remember any spirit that resembled air or earth spirits. That is why I ditched them.

As to the possession/manifest question, what you suggest is a great compromise and something I considered briefly. However, there's really no precedent for that sort of radical division (save the Wiccan trad, which only differs in Drain att), which makes me hesitant to do it. What do the rest of you on the board here think of this option?

[FrankTrollman]

[Shadowrunner13]

Hey NightmareX,

First off, I'm glad you liked my take on the Egyptian pantheon. :)

Secondly, I think the history and background you've worked out for the Hellenic Tradition looks pretty good. If you look at the old Greek/Roman myths, I can't recall one where a God possessed a person (doesn't mean there isn't one), so even though I kinda like the possession traditions, I think this one is more inclined toward a manifestation tradition (though perhaps an inclination towards Divination, as per Dashifen, is a suitable compromise).

As for spirit types, I keep coming back to the mythical creatures such as centaurs, cerberus and the minotaur and thinking that Beast spirits belong somewhere in the subset.

Just my 2¥. :)

SR13

[Aaron]

Has there yet been written a list of classical deities with corresponding mentor spirits?

[Dashifen]

[Dashifen]

[Kyoto Kid]

...think I'll borrow this and re-tool it for SRIII

This would fit well with my current campaign.

[knasser]

I wonder how well Blood Magic would fit with this? I've recently finished watching the first season of Rome on DVD. Absolutely brilliant. I wish I'd known about it sooner. (I had asked a friend about it, but she made it sound as though it was nothing but sex scenes. In fact, the series is hillariously funny). I have little idea how historically accurate it is, and now begin reading up to find out what it got wrong, but it portrays the roman end of the religion as being very bloody. I can see the sacrifice metamagic showing up in this tradition.

I'm passable on the deities of the ancient greeks and romans, but weak on the way they would have actually practiced magic. I think it was fairly primitive, yes? Writing desires on parchments and wearing them as talismans, etc. ?

-K.

[PlatonicPimp]

Having a Classical greek tradition that doesn't summon spirits of the classical greek elements doesn't sit right with me. Then again, now that I think about it, the greek philosoophers and greek mythology didn't get along so well....

[NightmareX]

[Talia Invierno]

I'd suggest that Guardian spirits don't work. The Greek ideal was personal excellence within fields that are somewhat twice-over duplicated by placing Guardian spirits in the realm of combat: ie. woman's magic replacing man's physical ideal. Nor does it feel entirely comfortable placing illusion within the domain of Poseidon.

I'm going to pull on the close relationship of water with uneasy earth and suggest the following changes:

Combat: Water spirits (sea, Poseidon, horse, storm, volcanic)
Detection: Guidance spirits (vapours: but see also commentary below)
Health: Fire spirits (Apollonic)
Illusion: Air spirits (but see also commentary below)
Manipulation: Earth spirits (earthquake, lava, transformation, subterranean powers)
Drain: Willpower + Logic

The Delphic oracular tradition could also be represented by air spirits: ie. vapours from the ground, in which case illusion might even shift to some specific type of shadow spirit.

Trickery is not highly thought of within the Greek reason v. daemon polarity -- how many ended up in Tartarus because they tried to trick the gods (or even their relatives)? -- and thus illusion and mental manipulation become the antithesis of logic. Shadow and earth are closest things I can find to a subterranean or Dionysian spirit.

Both illusion and mental manipulations absolutely have to have a female nature.

[FrankTrollman]

The Delphic Oracles originally got their powers and visions from spirits of the Earth and worshipped the Earth Mother. Then Apollo's forces conquered the temple by force and the oracles belonged to a sun god. Then they still inhaled vapors from cracks in the ground, but these vapors were now explicitly granted by the Sun instead of the Earth.

Greek religion is full of that sort of thing. Groups of bards would get together and explicitly change portions of the spiritual world. Gods would be jumbled together, attributes would be shifted from one magical being to another. Great quests would retroactively have been done by different heroes from different cities - the cognitive dissonance is awesome.

Neat fact: Heracles' name actually means "Glory of Hera" - but if you've been paying any attention at all you probably know that Hera does not get along well with Zeus' greatest son. Heracles was indeed the champion of Hera, but they had a falling out when Heracles went to one of these convocations on her behalf and got distracted by wine and wrestling and ended up allowing a bunch of Hera's powers to be stripped away and given to other gods represented by other people.

----

Anyway. The thing you should probably be askig yourself is "what should these spirits look like?" And perhaps more importantly "what should these spirits do?"

Water spirits, for example, can change the weather. Earth spirits can (eventually) make quakes. Fire spirits are literally on fire, but Air Spirits can at least potentially do that as well. Guardian spirits can use a bow or a spear, and Guidance spirits cantell the future.

So what are we looking at? It could be something like this:

• Combat: Oread or Monstrous Beast (Earth spirit)
• Detection: Nereid or Oceanid (Water spirit)
• Health: Centaur (Guardian spirit)
• Illusion: Daphnaie, Dryad, or Meliai (Plant spirit)
• Manipulation: Epimeliad or Monstrous Beast (Beast spirit)

I honestly don't think that guidance spirits are particularly appropriate. It is the magician, and not the spirit, who is supposed to be doing the divination.

-Frank

[NightmareX]

[FrankTrollman]

[NightmareX]

Cool, makes sense now. Thanks!

[Talia Invierno]

For what it's worth, I'm focusing strongly on "classical" as a Socratic timeline classical (where the plays and Iliad/Odyssey are living heritage), rather than a time before the city-states or Golden Bough speculation. That could make a difference to the interpretation.

[NightmareX]

[Dashifen]

Has a consensus been reached with respect to the spirits and drain attribute for the tradition?

[Cang]

I have been reading this thread, very interesting. I think with the logic vs intuition problem can be looked on like this, in my eyes; You have to split the works of the philosophers form the priesthoods. I would look at socrates and the like as a "mage" type tradition and the priesthoods and regular worshipers as more "shaman" like. Most people did not look at the natural world as cause and effect and using Logos, but in the way that the gods control everything, if a storm comes, its the gods, if i die, its the gods, if i become rich, its the gods. I think you can split this tradition into two and still be pretty much in the same boat. The shaman type would focus more on the panthanon and a patron god and the other would worry more on Logos and the study of the natural world to understand. They can be conflicting but they can also be complementary to each other.
As for the spirit types, those can change too on which path you take.

[FrankTrollman]

[Ol' Scratch]

This is one of the examples where there is no set doctrine or faith, and such a tradition is a bizarrely huge yet niched tradition rather than a broad but focused one like Hermeticism or Shamanism.

Any mage who follows such a tradition is effectively creating their own, unique tradition based upon their personal interpretation of it. A magician who's only ever seen the classic 2037 remake of Clash of the Titans will have a tradition completely different from the magician who has a doctorate's degree on the subject. Some may interpret their spirits as the gods themselves, some may worship a single god and interpret each spell category as a different aspect thereof, and others yet choosing any of the ones FrankTrollman mentioned above.

Trying to create a single, unified tradition on a subject that has such wildly divergent possibilities -- both in fiction and non-fiction -- is pretty futile. It would be easier to choose a further niche within the topic and create a tradition from that.

(For the record, this is one of the changes in SR4 I absolutely love. I hated having to create my own traditions or variants of existing ones in previous editions.)