NightmareX
Jul 20 2007, 10:43 AM
Shadowrunner13 did a rather nice take on the
Egyptian tradition recently, so I thought I'd finish the job and take care of the Greco-Roman end of things. Let me know what you all think.
The Hellenic TraditionConcept: Magicians following the Hellenic religion divide magic into the gifts of the Gods garnered through worship and sacrifice, interaction and trafficking with
daemons (benign or malevolent spirits that act as intermediaries between men and the Gods), and the classical witchcraft of incantations, hexes, and potions.
Combat: Guardian spirits
Detection: Guidance spirits
Health: Plant spirits
Illusion: Water spirits
Manipulation: Man spirits
Drain: Willpower + Intuition
An enormously complex system interweaving magic and religion into a single whole, Neoclassical polytheism (also known as Hellenismos) started off with a shaky rebirth in the late 20th century as various reconstructionist groups both in Greece and elsewhere attempted to revive the worship of the old Greek gods. Initially, the movement faced stiff opposition in Greece itself from the Orthodox Christian church, but managed to put down small but firm roots in the old United States, England, and elsewhere in Europe. With the Awakening, the Greek core of the movement was revitalized as the Orthodox church and society as a whole struggled to come to terms with the resurgence of magic and the return of mythic creatures. These days Hellenismos enjoys the support of a small but significant portion of the population of the Federal Republic of Hellas as well as some groups in North America and Europe.
Awakened followers of Hellenismos are often referred to as
exegetai (singular exegete, after the class of religious specialists of ancient Greece) in the Sixth World, and are often fulfill the role of
neokoroi (priest or temple keeper) within Hellenismos cults. The Greco-Roman cosmology is inherently polytheistic, and most Hellenic magicians show at least some devotion to most if not all the Classical Gods. Some exegetai, however, prefer a closer relationship with a single deity who is adopted as a mentor spirit.
While intimately related to the Hermetic tradition via the works Pythagoras and Plato, Hellenismos places less emphasis on the reasoned approach to magic seen in the Hermetic tradition in favor of a more intuitive and ecstatic approach. Common rituals include devotions to the various gods in the form of prayers, dance, chants, votive offerings, and the occasional animal sacrifice as well as more common magical practices. Hellenic magicians traffic with a diverse array of spirits via the arts of conjuring, including such nature spirits as dryads, nymphs, and satyrs (plant spirits), naiads and sirens (water spirits),
angelos messengers of the Gods and other daemons (guardian and guidance spirits), and the ghosts or shades of the dead (guardian spirits or spirits of man).
Dashifen
Jul 20 2007, 01:07 PM
I wonder if it's worth adding something about Divination being a common initiate power. I'm thinking of the various oracles that were common throughout the ancient Greek world (e.g., Delphi).
NightmareX
Jul 20 2007, 01:36 PM
I was thinking about cramming something like that in the last paragraph, but forgot to.
Actually, I was having a good deal of difficulty with the question of manifesting tradition or possession tradition. On one hand, manifesting lets you conjure up nymphs, spectral hounds and eagles (guardian spirits), shades, and Argonaut-esqe warriors (or skeletons per the movie versions) as guardian spirits.
But on the other hand, a possession tradition would allow guidance spirits to possess an individual and make a more genuine oracle. Possession by guardian spirits could recreate the likes of Achilles and Hercules, while possession by ghosts is always a good theme. Possession by water or plant spirits could be a tad odd though.
Further, while I was certain I wanted guardian and guidance spirits (for the noted reasons), I wasn't certain what to do with the other three. Spirits of Man, plant, and water felt the most right out of the 10, but beast spirits could have worked too.
Dashifen
Jul 20 2007, 02:05 PM
Greece is also a rather geologically active area of the world, so Earth spirits might be venerated. As for possession vs. materialization, perhaps make a note that it can be taken as either as part of the specific practitioner's path. Then you can mention that the possession branch of this tradition has its root in the ancient oracles.
NightmareX
Jul 20 2007, 03:38 PM
Regarding earth spirits, I was originally thinking of going with this set up:
Combat: Guardian spirits
Detection: Guidance spirits
Health: Water spirits
Illusion: Air spirits
Manipulation: Earth spirits
But ran into a couple of problems with that. First, it's exactly the same set up as the Bujinken ninjitsu tradition I wrote up - a minor consideration perhaps, but still distasteful to my sense of aesthetics. Second, and more important, after reviewing all the Greek myths I could think of (mentally that is
) I couldn't remember any spirit that resembled air or earth spirits. That is why I ditched them.
As to the possession/manifest question, what you suggest is a great compromise and something I considered briefly. However, there's really no precedent for that sort of radical division (save the Wiccan trad, which only differs in Drain att), which makes me hesitant to do it. What do the rest of you on the board here think of this option?
FrankTrollman
Jul 20 2007, 05:05 PM
QUOTE |
Second, and more important, after reviewing all the Greek myths I could think of (mentally that is wink.gif ) I couldn't remember any spirit that resembled air or earth spirits. |
Oreads, any of Posseidon's children, and of course all the Tartarians thrown up by Echidna. Earth spirits are the ones which get Quake as a great form power, so they should be quite common in a greek tradition. Probably as the patrons of Combat Spells.
-Frank
Shadowrunner13
Jul 20 2007, 05:41 PM
Hey NightmareX,
First off, I'm glad you liked my take on the Egyptian pantheon.
Secondly, I think the history and background you've worked out for the Hellenic Tradition looks pretty good. If you look at the old Greek/Roman myths, I can't recall one where a God possessed a person (doesn't mean there isn't one), so even though I kinda like the possession traditions, I think this one is more inclined toward a manifestation tradition (though perhaps an inclination towards Divination, as per Dashifen, is a suitable compromise).
As for spirit types, I keep coming back to the mythical creatures such as centaurs, cerberus and the minotaur and thinking that Beast spirits belong somewhere in the subset.
Just my 2¥.
SR13
Aaron
Jul 20 2007, 05:45 PM
Has there yet been written a list of classical deities with corresponding mentor spirits?
Dashifen
Jul 20 2007, 06:30 PM
QUOTE (Aaron) |
Has there yet been written a list of classical deities with corresponding mentor spirits? |
p. 184, Street Magic
Dashifen
Jul 20 2007, 06:32 PM
QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
Earth spirits are the ones which get Quake as a great form power, so they should be quite common in a greek tradition. Probably as the patrons of Combat Spells. |
Yeah, I was thinking that, too.
Kyoto Kid
Jul 20 2007, 08:39 PM
...think I'll borrow this and re-tool it for SRIII
This would fit well with my current campaign.
knasser
Jul 20 2007, 09:24 PM
I wonder how well Blood Magic would fit with this? I've recently finished watching the first season of Rome on DVD. Absolutely brilliant. I wish I'd known about it sooner. (I had asked a friend about it, but she made it sound as though it was nothing but sex scenes. In fact, the series is hillariously funny). I have little idea how historically accurate it is, and now begin reading up to find out what it got wrong, but it portrays the roman end of the religion as being very bloody. I can see the sacrifice metamagic showing up in this tradition.
I'm passable on the deities of the ancient greeks and romans, but weak on the way they would have actually practiced magic. I think it was fairly primitive, yes? Writing desires on parchments and wearing them as talismans, etc. ?
-K.
PlatonicPimp
Jul 21 2007, 01:19 AM
Having a Classical greek tradition that doesn't summon spirits of the classical greek elements doesn't sit right with me. Then again, now that I think about it, the greek philosoophers and greek mythology didn't get along so well....
NightmareX
Jul 21 2007, 10:24 AM
QUOTE |
Oreads, any of Posseidon's children, and of course all the Tartarians thrown up by Echidna. Earth spirits are the ones which get Quake as a great form power, so they should be quite common in a greek tradition. Probably as the patrons of Combat Spells. |
Thanks Frank, forgot about them. Looks like a spirit rework might be in order. Of course, problem being we've got:
Guardian, Guidance, Beast, Earth, Water, Plant, and Man
All of which work. Which then to use? I'm holding off on altering the original post til we get something more solidly final.
QUOTE (Shadowrunner13) |
Hey NightmareX,
First off, I'm glad you liked my take on the Egyptian pantheon. |
I like quality work
QUOTE |
Secondly, I think the history and background you've worked out for the Hellenic Tradition looks pretty good. If you look at the old Greek/Roman myths, I can't recall one where a God possessed a person (doesn't mean there isn't one), so even though I kinda like the possession traditions, I think this one is more inclined toward a manifestation tradition (though perhaps an inclination towards Divination, as per Dashifen, is a suitable compromise). |
Actually, the oracles like Delphi were thought to be direct possession when prophecizing, hence the desire to go possession with that. But I think a blurb on Divination metamagic would probably be better - certainly easier.
QUOTE (knasser) |
I'm passable on the deities of the ancient greeks and romans, but weak on the way they would have actually practiced magic. I think it was fairly primitive, yes? Writing desires on parchments and wearing them as talismans, etc. ? |
Yup, mostly (when talking about actual magic). Herbalism was big too IIRC.
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
Having a Classical greek tradition that doesn't summon spirits of the classical greek elements doesn't sit right with me. Then again, now that I think about it, the greek philosoophers and greek mythology didn't get along so well.... |
That's the thing, the classical elements are an artifact of the philosophical end of things, not the traditional religion. That branch of Greek thought ended up as part of the base of the Hermetic tradition. The actual Hellenic religion is more animistic, and has little to do with the classical elements per se. Thus the noted kinship but separation in the text.
Talia Invierno
Jul 21 2007, 02:45 PM
I'd suggest that Guardian spirits don't work. The Greek ideal was personal excellence within fields that are somewhat twice-over duplicated by placing Guardian spirits in the realm of combat: ie. woman's magic replacing man's physical ideal. Nor does it feel entirely comfortable placing illusion within the domain of Poseidon.
I'm going to pull on the close relationship of water with uneasy earth and suggest the following changes:
Combat: Water spirits (sea, Poseidon, horse, storm, volcanic)
Detection: Guidance spirits (vapours: but see also commentary below)
Health: Fire spirits (Apollonic)
Illusion: Air spirits (but see also commentary below)
Manipulation: Earth spirits (earthquake, lava, transformation, subterranean powers)
Drain: Willpower + Logic
The Delphic oracular tradition could also be represented by air spirits: ie. vapours from the ground, in which case illusion might even shift to some specific type of shadow spirit.
Trickery is not highly thought of within the Greek reason v. daemon polarity -- how many ended up in Tartarus because they tried to trick the gods (or even their relatives)? -- and thus illusion and mental manipulation become the antithesis of logic. Shadow and earth are closest things I can find to a subterranean or Dionysian spirit.
Both illusion and mental manipulations absolutely have to have a female nature.
FrankTrollman
Jul 21 2007, 04:55 PM
The Delphic Oracles originally got their powers and visions from spirits of the Earth and worshipped the Earth Mother. Then Apollo's forces conquered the temple by force and the oracles belonged to a sun god. Then they still inhaled vapors from cracks in the ground, but these vapors were now explicitly granted by the Sun instead of the Earth.
Greek religion is full of that sort of thing. Groups of bards would get together and explicitly change portions of the spiritual world. Gods would be jumbled together, attributes would be shifted from one magical being to another. Great quests would retroactively have been done by different heroes from different cities - the cognitive dissonance is awesome.
Neat fact: Heracles' name actually means "Glory of Hera" - but if you've been paying any attention at all you probably know that Hera does not get along well with Zeus' greatest son. Heracles was indeed the champion of Hera, but they had a falling out when Heracles went to one of these convocations on her behalf and got distracted by wine and wrestling and ended up allowing a bunch of Hera's powers to be stripped away and given to other gods represented by other people.
----
Anyway. The thing you should probably be askig yourself is "what should these spirits look like?" And perhaps more importantly "what should these spirits
do?"
Water spirits, for example, can change the weather. Earth spirits can (eventually) make quakes. Fire spirits are literally
on fire, but Air Spirits can at least potentially do that as well. Guardian spirits can use a bow or a spear, and Guidance spirits cantell the future.
So what are we looking at? It could be something like this:
- Combat: Oread or Monstrous Beast (Earth spirit)
- Detection: Nereid or Oceanid (Water spirit)
- Health: Centaur (Guardian spirit)
- Illusion: Daphnaie, Dryad, or Meliai (Plant spirit)
- Manipulation: Epimeliad or Monstrous Beast (Beast spirit)
I honestly don't think that guidance spirits are particularly appropriate. It is the magician, and not the spirit, who is supposed to be doing the divination.
-Frank
NightmareX
Jul 22 2007, 09:36 AM
QUOTE (Talia Invierno) |
Nor does it feel entirely comfortable placing illusion within the domain of Poseidon. |
Any particular reason why aside from the masculine/feminine thing?
QUOTE |
Trickery is not highly thought of within the Greek reason v. daemon polarity -- how many ended up in Tartarus because they tried to trick the gods (or even their relatives)? -- and thus illusion and mental manipulation become the antithesis of logic. Shadow and earth are closest things I can find to a subterranean or Dionysian spirit.
Both illusion and mental manipulations absolutely have to have a female nature. |
Hmm, I can easily see this angle. However, I'm trying to encompass the entire Hellenic religious tradition here - male and female mysteries both. While this might be a doomed endeavor in a way considering the sheer variety of the tradition (as we are seeing
), there are certain things I'm sure I don't want to do. One of those is to include all the four elemental spirit types - enforcing a sort of stylistic difference from Hermeticism in order to reaffirm the real world differences being my logic.
Also, may I ask why you would go with Logic over Intuition?
QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
Greek religion is full of that sort of thing. Groups of bards would get together and explicitly change portions of the spiritual world. Gods would be jumbled together, attributes would be shifted from one magical being to another. Great quests would retroactively have been done by different heroes from different cities - the cognitive dissonance is awesome. |
Very true, this level of contradiction and sheer variety being part of the problem we are running into here.
QUOTE |
Anyway. The thing you should probably be askig yourself is "what should these spirits look like?" And perhaps more importantly "what should these spirits do?" |
Good point, thank you. I was basically going by general feel (so to speak) before.
With this in mind, lets examine Guardian spirits vs Beast spirits. Both are strong combatants (beast spirits get a 1pt edge in Body compared to guardian spirits, but loose 1pt of Agility in comparison, so it's an even trade IMO).
Guardian spirits get Fear, Guard, Magical Guard, and Movement, with the potential for Animal Control, Concealment, Elemental Attack, Natural Weaponry, Psychokinesis, and Skill (Combat).
Beast spirits get Animal Control, Enhanced Senses, Fear, and Movement, with the potential for Concealment, Confusion, Guard, Natural Weapon, Noxious Breath, Search, Venom.
Overlap powers are bolded. Obvious, both can fulfill the same role more or less, but beast spirits are "better" (ie somewhat more versatile) in that they get Confusion, Noxious Breath, Search, and Venom compared to Elemental Attack, Magical Guard, Psychokinesis, and Skill. Not mentioning the obvious strength of Magical Guard that is.
So, it boils down to a stylistic decision in a way. Beast spirits can represent, well, beasts - spectral hounds, hydras (small ones), chimeric critters etc etc - but really not much more without stretching the definition of beast spirit a tad as Street Magic seems to imply they pretty much always animalistic in nature. Guardian spirits otoh can represent anything from ghostly warriors, bloodthirsty daimons, avenging angels, or even the types of critters normally represented by beast spirits (nothing in Street Magic implies they couldn't appear in such a fashion). Therefore, I think I'll go with broader representative abilities of guardian spirits over the greater versatility of beast spirits.
So, ditching guidance spirits as you suggest (see below), that leaves us with Earth, Guardian, Man, Plant, and Water from the previous list. Now, to be certain, I don't want Fire spirits included (unless someone can make a really good case that I'm missing), I don't really see the point of bothering with Task spirits, and there's no real need for Air spirits, especially if they are associated with Detection spells (stylistically or power wise).
Suggested:
Combat: Guardian spirits (warrior ghosts/angels/daimons, critters)
Detection: Water spirit (naiads, nerieds, etc)
Health: Earth spirits (oreads or critters)
Illusion: Plant spirits (dryads, nymphs, etc)
Manipulation: Spirits of Man (shades, angels, daimons)
QUOTE |
Health: Centaur (Guardian spirit) Manipulation: Epimeliad or Monstrous Beast (Beast spirit) |
Can I ask your logic on these two choices Frank? Or are they just place fillers? Personally, I have a tough time associating guardian spirits with anything but Combat spells (as you can see above) - doesn't seem right.
QUOTE |
I honestly don't think that guidance spirits are particularly appropriate. It is the magician, and not the spirit, who is supposed to be doing the divination. |
Hmm - throughout the majority of the tradition, you are utterly correct here. The only exceptions I can think of being again the oracles (barring the vapor effect) and Plato's (IIRC) claim that his person daimon was particularly effective at divination.
I think you're right, guidance spirits may not be the way to go.
FrankTrollman
Jul 22 2007, 04:29 PM
QUOTE |
Can I ask your logic on these two choices Frank? Or are they just place fillers? Personally, I have a tough time associating guardian spirits with anything but Combat spells (as you can see above) - doesn't seem right. |
Centaurs invented medicine, and are thus a natural supernatural emblem of Health Spells. They are also th patrons of the spear and the bow - the greatest of the weapon masters. So having them be the spirits who have selectable combat skills is a natural. The fact that they can also command horses, protect friends, and go extremely fast is icing on the cake.
Manipulation spells are a grab bag discipline. They literally encompass the majority of potential magical effects in Shadowrun. "Manipulation Bloat" is a severe problem because the sphere is so diverse. And yet, that actually works to our advantage when we bring in the Epimeliads and the monsters.
Epimeliads are the protectors of sheep, and also of apples (!). They have white hair, control animals and men, and fight fiercely in defense of goats, and... uh... apples too. They are the most "bestial" of the nymphs (possibly because of their close connection to apples). So they make a pretty good beast spirit (going all maenad claws when goats are threatened and controlling animals), and they also make a good stand in for the teachers of Control Manipulations and protective Manipulations like Armor and Barrier.
The monsters are um... very diverse. Pretty much any effect you want to think about (creating deafening noise, controlling flocks of birds, transforming people into water, lifting things on columns of air, etc.) can be found on one or more of the monsters. And so the rest of the grab bag of manipulations are represented by various monsters and it all kind of works out.
So some times you throw down a beast spirit and it comes to you as a "sheep girl" who has clawed fingernails and white fluffy hair (she teaches you Influence). And some times it shows up as a chicken with six legs and a snake tail (he teaches you Petrify). In either case the spirit can control animals (whether it be sheep or chicken).
-Frank
NightmareX
Jul 23 2007, 08:33 AM
Cool, makes sense now. Thanks!
Talia Invierno
Jul 24 2007, 05:11 AM
For what it's worth, I'm focusing strongly on "classical" as a Socratic timeline classical (where the plays and Iliad/Odyssey are living heritage), rather than a time before the city-states or Golden Bough speculation. That could make a difference to the interpretation.
QUOTE |
One of those is to include all the four elemental spirit types - enforcing a sort of stylistic difference from Hermeticism in order to reaffirm the real world differences being my logic. |
The problem with specifically avoiding the four elements is that the traceable source for those four elements in the first place is the Greek philosopher Empedocles of Acragas (later picked up by Aristotle). This makes any attempt to deliberately avoid them in this tradition feel somewhat forced.
QUOTE (NightmareX) |
QUOTE (Talia Invierno) | Nor does it feel entirely comfortable placing illusion within the domain of Poseidon. |
Any particular reason why aside from the masculine/feminine thing?
|
Ocean washes away illusion. Ocean is very nearly the personification of physical power. Among other aspects thereof, Ocean is also one of the portals to the realms of the dead, referenced so in the Odyssey. All other water associations are much, much weaker in comparison.
In addition to the neither-this-nor-that of fog and vapours, illusion could also fall in the realm of air by way of the trickster Hermes (source of the word and concept of hermeticism). However, cunning in battle and in tactics directly leading to battle falls more under the realm of the Wise Warrior Athena: again female.
QUOTE |
Also, may I ask why you would go with Logic over Intuition? |
Logos as the tool of reason and understanding.
NightmareX
Jul 24 2007, 10:56 AM
QUOTE |
For what it's worth, I'm focusing strongly on "classical" as a Socratic timeline classical (where the plays and Iliad/Odyssey are living heritage), rather than a time before the city-states or Golden Bough speculation. That could make a difference to the interpretation. .... The problem with specifically avoiding the four elements is that the traceable source for those four elements in the first place is the Greek philosopher Empedocles of Acragas (later picked up by Aristotle). This makes any attempt to deliberately avoid them in this tradition feel somewhat forced. .... Logos as the tool of reason and understanding.
|
Ah, yes I see the disconnect now. What I'm focusing on and trying to model is essentially based on the modern (and current) neo-pagan revivals of the tradition. Although this has its basis in the period you mention and tries to recreate the old tradition it is fundamentally not the same because simply the original tradition is long dead, killed by the incursions of Christianity. Thus, when speaking of the Sixth World, it is the neo-pagan revivals I think that we must deal with primarily, rather than going directly to the original tradition.
The revival, while drawing from some of the sources mentioned (Iliad/Odyssey, Hesiod, etc) it appears to maintain a certain distance from the philosophic branch of the Greek tradition......in terms of magical and religious practice at least (of course, I'm still in the early stages of exploring said revival, I could be wrong).
This is why I avoided representing the four classical elements, and also why I went with Intuition over Logic. Note that Street Magic states
"A tradition with a practical, scientific, and planned approach to magic suggests Logic
as the secondary Drain attribute; for a tradition with a spontaneous, ecstatic, or artistic approach, Intuition would likely be better"
Despite the philosophical underpinnings, the current revival certainly would seem to characterize more of the ecstatic and artistic elements of the traditional worship and the Mysteries than the planned and rational approach the philosophers would likely take (again, the Hermetic tradition).
QUOTE |
Ocean washes away illusion. Ocean is very nearly the personification of physical power. Among other aspects thereof, Ocean is also one of the portals to the realms of the dead, referenced so in the Odyssey. All other water associations are much, much weaker in comparison.
In addition to the neither-this-nor-that of fog and vapours, illusion could also fall in the realm of air by way of the trickster Hermes . However, cunning in battle and in tactics directly leading to battle falls more under the realm of the Wise Warrior Athena: again female. |
Makes some sense.
QUOTE |
(source of the word and concept of hermeticism) |
By way of Hermes Trismegistus, a more syncretic concept, yes.
Dashifen
Jul 24 2007, 04:56 PM
Has a consensus been reached with respect to the spirits and drain attribute for the tradition?
Cang
Jul 24 2007, 05:13 PM
I have been reading this thread, very interesting. I think with the logic vs intuition problem can be looked on like this, in my eyes; You have to split the works of the philosophers form the priesthoods. I would look at socrates and the like as a "mage" type tradition and the priesthoods and regular worshipers as more "shaman" like. Most people did not look at the natural world as cause and effect and using Logos, but in the way that the gods control everything, if a storm comes, its the gods, if i die, its the gods, if i become rich, its the gods. I think you can split this tradition into two and still be pretty much in the same boat. The shaman type would focus more on the panthanon and a patron god and the other would worry more on Logos and the study of the natural world to understand. They can be conflicting but they can also be complementary to each other.
As for the spirit types, those can change too on which path you take.
FrankTrollman
Jul 24 2007, 06:02 PM
QUOTE (Dashifen) |
Has a consensus been reached with respect to the spirits and drain attribute for the tradition? |
Nope. At this time there isn't even consensus as to what the spirits represent. Suggestions include:
- The Nymphs and Monsters of the mythological era.
- Aspects of the gods.
- Avatars of Aristotle's Hot/Cold, Dry/Wet elemental system featuring Aether.
- Avatars of Plato's five perfect solids elemental system (where the fifth is "divine will")
There isn't a huge argument as to what the spirits should be given what the basic assumption is - it's all pretty self explanatory. But as to what the spirits
are - there is essentially no agreement.
-Frank
Ol' Scratch
Jul 24 2007, 06:18 PM
This is one of the examples where there is no set doctrine or faith, and such a tradition is a bizarrely huge yet niched tradition rather than a broad but focused one like Hermeticism or Shamanism.
Any mage who follows such a tradition is effectively creating their own, unique tradition based upon their personal interpretation of it. A magician who's only ever seen the classic 2037 remake of Clash of the Titans will have a tradition completely different from the magician who has a doctorate's degree on the subject. Some may interpret their spirits as the gods themselves, some may worship a single god and interpret each spell category as a different aspect thereof, and others yet choosing any of the ones FrankTrollman mentioned above.
Trying to create a single, unified tradition on a subject that has such wildly divergent possibilities -- both in fiction and non-fiction -- is pretty futile. It would be easier to choose a further niche within the topic and create a tradition from that.
(For the record, this is one of the changes in SR4 I absolutely love. I hated having to create my own traditions or variants of existing ones in previous editions.)
Cang
Jul 24 2007, 06:23 PM
I think the Doc as it right. Even the greeks had different takes on the religion.. bringing in gods and myths of other people around them, telling stories to make them their people the heros, or just having a whole different view of the gods. To think in 2070 that this religion revival will be just as it was in 700bce is kinda crazy. Ofcourse there is alot of good foundations here that your character can build off to make his tradition.
Dashifen
Jul 24 2007, 07:28 PM
While all that is true, I guess I was hoping that regardless of the interpretation of what the spirits meant to the summon, that we had some agreement on which spirit classifications would be associated with the spell categories. The comment above re: drain attribute being either Logic or Intuition is a moot point since the canon Wiccan tradition has two different attributes depending on how the practitioner wants to view it; this maybe a candidate for such a ruling as well. However, if we can agree at least on the spirits, then we might be able to, in a few paragraphs, also expand on the Doc's post above to have a community agreement on a usable Classical Tradition.
FrankTrollman
Jul 24 2007, 07:55 PM
QUOTE (Dashifen) |
While all that is true, I guess I was hoping that regardless of the interpretation of what the spirits meant to the summon, that we had some agreement on which spirit classifications would be associated with the spell categories. |
Heh. Unfortunately not. Let's compare the two similar "elemental" versions: the Aristotlean and the Platonic. Under Aristotle's elements there are two distinct sets of opposing forces: Hot and Cold, and Dry and Wet. These collect together to form Fire (Hot and Dry) or Water (Cold and Wet), Earth (Cold and Dry) or Air (Hot and Wet). But they also become excluded to form Aether - a substance that protects the Earth from the celestial spheres. In this model, you have Aether as your fifth element, and it is represented by a Guardian Spirit and teaches Health spells.
On the flip side, Plato's elements are represented by Pythagorean Solids. These solids correspond to Air, Water, and Fire if they are made out of triangles, and Earth if it is made out of squares. The most noble of all is the Dodecahedron - which is made of pentagons and represents the pure plan of the divine. In this system the fifth element is represented by a Guidance Spirit and teaches Detection spells.
And so on and so forth. Each of the models makes very different claims on the spirits or elements that it espouses.
As to a usable Classical Tradition, I think several of them have been put forward on this thread. I'm still partial to the one I threw down that was summoning Nymphs and Monstra - but the others also work.
-Frank
Talia Invierno
Jul 24 2007, 07:56 PM
QUOTE (Cang) |
I think the Doc as it right. Even the greeks had different takes on the religion.. bringing in gods and myths of other people around them, telling stories to make them their people the heros, or just having a whole different view of the gods. |
Absolutely, although just what the original tradition was is open to much interpretation: and like so many things today, that interpretation tends to be coloured by personal polemics. (For that matter, some of the same argument could be applied to a fundamental Egyptian rift also, Shadowrunner13: though that particular religious struggle had more clearly divided battle lines, perhaps because the agricultural nature of the area enforced a certain political unity.) In terms of how a given individual might wish to see it, there might even a case for a pre-"classical" matriarchal period. (Shall we sidestep much debate and agree that the hard evidence for such a period is -- less than conclusive?) That's why I focus so heavily on Iliad/Odyssey -- reliably dated to (at least) centuries before the Socratic, which in turn was itself some four centuries before Christianity.
QUOTE (NightmareX) |
Ah, yes I see the disconnect now. What I'm focusing on and trying to model is essentially based on the modern (and current) neo-pagan revivals of the tradition. Although this has its basis in the period you mention and tries to recreate the old tradition it is fundamentally not the same because simply the original tradition is long dead, killed by the incursions of Christianity. Thus, when speaking of the Sixth World, it is the neo-pagan revivals I think that we must deal with primarily, rather than going directly to the original tradition.
The revival, while drawing from some of the sources mentioned (Iliad/Odyssey, Hesiod, etc) it appears to maintain a certain distance from the philosophic branch of the Greek tradition......in terms of magical and religious practice at least (of course, I'm still in the early stages of exploring said revival, I could be wrong). |
That revival is active even now. The past Olympics brought the conflict over site usage into the broader newscasts.
I've tried also to use the gods' domains in the broader, elemental sense: as personifications of this or that part of nature, human beings included. For the most part, that approach leads to a very careless attitude toward human beings. Not too many of the gods or lesser deities seemed to focused on mankind's welfare. Haesphestos come closest, as one who at least somewhat harnessed natural elements into the human-useful: so task spirits could potentially link in with fire, for a bronze/iron age approach. Similarly, Demeter's domain could be pulled into the plant/herb/healing sphere.
We still can't pull in the Dionysian for illusion though: wine doesn't so much disguise as touch on deeper truths, which is the antithesis of illusion.
Even so, neither guardian nor guidance spirit have much resonance at all; and animal only awkwardly.
For one of the widest interpretive nets around (and one of the closest in considering modern attitudes), have you read Nietzsche's
Birth of Tragedy? It's the one that introduced the concept of a fundamental Apollonic/Dionysian discord at the heart of Greek culture. A warning: reactions to that book also tend to be coloured by personal polemics.
Nicest of all, it's
short!
Dashifen
Jul 24 2007, 08:43 PM
Perhaps, then what we need is not a Classical Tradition but rather a Pythagorean Tradition and an Aristotelean Tradition.
Neither of which, however, would seem to provide a tradition with an intimate relationship with the classical gods (i.e., Zeus/Jupiter, Ares/Mars, etc.) as listed in Street Magic, which I feel is somewhat lacking as Shadowrunner13 did with the Egyptian tradition.
NightmareX
Jul 25 2007, 08:37 AM
QUOTE (Dashifen) |
Has a consensus been reached with respect to the spirits and drain attribute for the tradition? |
Heh, nope - but this be Dumpshock, tis not surprising
While broad agreement about spirits/spell categories would be nice, I tend to try to be realistic in my expectations. When it comes right down to it, complete or even majority agreement is unlikely, but that's not really my goal here. What I want is to simply hash out a workable tradition for myself that I'm happy with, as everyone else will undoubtedly do the same. Discussion aids in this goal. If that tradition does by some miracle become widely accepted, all the better.
QUOTE (Cang) |
I would look at socrates and the like as a "mage" type tradition and the priesthoods and regular worshipers as more "shaman" like. Most people did not look at the natural world as cause and effect and using Logos, but in the way that the gods control everything |
Yup, that's exactly the way I'm seeing this. Basically, the philosophic branch (Aristotlean, Platonic, etc) is a branch of the Hermetic tradition and thus I'm not bothering to deal with them - why reinvent the wheel after all?
(no offense Frank - the Aristotelean and Platonic explanations you wrote above look great, and I'd be interested in seeing complete write ups of them, as Hermetic schools maybe?)
That aside, we are left IMO to focus on the religious end of the greater Hellenic tradition, which was my original purpose. If we could agree on this, I think the job would go from implausible to merely difficult
Regarding the Drain attribute issue, I wouldn't be adverse to giving a choice between Logic and Intuition (ala Wicca) and throwing in some fluff saying that some Hellenics tend to embrace the philosophical traditions or take a more Apollonian view whereas others keep it more shamanic/ecstatic/Dionysian.
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
Trying to create a single, unified tradition on a subject that has such wildly divergent possibilities -- both in fiction and non-fiction -- is pretty futile. It would be easier to choose a further niche within the topic and create a tradition from that. |
Done that, just that I wasn't clear enough originally it seems. No biggie. But in any case, I don't think making a pan-Hellenic religious tradition is impossible, any more than making a single Norse, Hindu, or Shamanic tradition would be
It's simply a matter of reaching a comfortable level of abstraction.
QUOTE (Talia Invierno) |
In terms of how a given individual might wish to see it, there might even a case for a pre-"classical" matriarchal period. (Shall we sidestep much debate and agree that the hard evidence for such a period is -- less than conclusive?) |
*shudder* Definitely.
QUOTE |
That revival is active even now. The past Olympics brought the conflict over site usage into the broader newscasts. |
I know
QUOTE |
For one of the widest interpretive nets around (and one of the closest in considering modern attitudes), have you read Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy? It's the one that introduced the concept of a fundamental Apollonic/Dionysian discord at the heart of Greek culture. A warning: reactions to that book also tend to be coloured by personal polemics.
Nicest of all, it's short! |
Sweet
Haven't read that one yet, but I'm vaguely aware of the Apollonic/Dionysian divide, and somewhat agree with that perspective. I tend to be somewhat meh towards the functional difference of that divide though, being partial to Hekate myself and combining both Apollonic and Dionysian "themes" in my personal philosophy/practice. In retrospect, I can see how that perspective colored my initial writeup of the tradition here. Thank you Talia.
Hmm...perhaps it would be advantageous to split the tradition into separate Apollonian and Dionysian traditions with separate summonable spirits and spell category links (in addition to the different Drain att)? Thoughts everyone?
QUOTE (Dashifen) |
Perhaps, then what we need is not a Classical Tradition but rather a Pythagorean Tradition and an Aristotelean Tradition.
Neither of which, however, would seem to provide a tradition with an intimate relationship with the classical gods (i.e., Zeus/Jupiter, Ares/Mars, etc.) as listed in Street Magic, which I feel is somewhat lacking as Shadowrunner13 did with the Egyptian tradition. |
Definitely agreed. Although I would see the Pythagorean and Aristotelean traditions as schools of the Hermetic tradition myself. Any volunteers to write them up? (Frank?)
Regarding the broad term of Classical tradition, it is apparent that I misnamed this thread in regards to what I was going after. My bad
That latter mentioned lack of a Hellenic religious tradition is what I hope to remedy here.
Cang
Jul 25 2007, 01:37 PM
QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
So what are we looking at? It could be something like this:- Combat: Oread or Monstrous Beast (Earth spirit)
- Detection: Nereid or Oceanid (Water spirit)
- Health: Centaur (Guardian spirit)
- Illusion: Daphnaie, Dryad, or Meliai (Plant spirit)
- Manipulation: Epimeliad or Monstrous Beast (Beast spirit)
|
If i were to do this, i think i would take Franks spell and spirit model, take a mentor spirit for a god of my choosing (or in some cases they choose you) and go with intuition. My pc would be keen to honor all the gods (maybe not so much the ones that are the anti or not so friendly to my patron) but set up most of my worship under my mentor. The circle or lodge would be called a temple, were you might sacrifice animals or leave food or wine (depending on the god) and my pc would be wise to watch the heavens and earth to pick up signs from the gods, ie. looking for omens from the gods, no matter if the three birds flying by are from apollo or just three birds going to lunch. hope that helps