 The Classical Tradition, Because Street Magic didn't do it... |
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 Jul 24 2007, 06:23 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 16-December 05 From: new jack city Member No.: 8,077  |
I think the Doc as it right. Even the greeks had different takes on the religion.. bringing in gods and myths of other people around them, telling stories to make them their people the heros, or just having a whole different view of the gods. To think in 2070 that this religion revival will be just as it was in 700bce is kinda crazy. Ofcourse there is alot of good foundations here that your character can build off to make his tradition. :)
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Jul 24 2007, 07:28 PM
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#27
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
While all that is true, I guess I was hoping that regardless of the interpretation of what the spirits meant to the summon, that we had some agreement on which spirit classifications would be associated with the spell categories. The comment above re: drain attribute being either Logic or Intuition is a moot point since the canon Wiccan tradition has two different attributes depending on how the practitioner wants to view it; this maybe a candidate for such a ruling as well. However, if we can agree at least on the spirits, then we might be able to, in a few paragraphs, also expand on the Doc's post above to have a community agreement on a usable Classical Tradition.
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Jul 24 2007, 07:55 PM
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#28
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Heh. Unfortunately not. Let's compare the two similar "elemental" versions: the Aristotlean and the Platonic. Under Aristotle's elements there are two distinct sets of opposing forces: Hot and Cold, and Dry and Wet. These collect together to form Fire (Hot and Dry) or Water (Cold and Wet), Earth (Cold and Dry) or Air (Hot and Wet). But they also become excluded to form Aether - a substance that protects the Earth from the celestial spheres. In this model, you have Aether as your fifth element, and it is represented by a Guardian Spirit and teaches Health spells. On the flip side, Plato's elements are represented by Pythagorean Solids. These solids correspond to Air, Water, and Fire if they are made out of triangles, and Earth if it is made out of squares. The most noble of all is the Dodecahedron - which is made of pentagons and represents the pure plan of the divine. In this system the fifth element is represented by a Guidance Spirit and teaches Detection spells. And so on and so forth. Each of the models makes very different claims on the spirits or elements that it espouses. As to a usable Classical Tradition, I think several of them have been put forward on this thread. I'm still partial to the one I threw down that was summoning Nymphs and Monstra - but the others also work. -Frank |
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Jul 24 2007, 07:56 PM
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#29
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Absolutely, although just what the original tradition was is open to much interpretation: and like so many things today, that interpretation tends to be coloured by personal polemics. (For that matter, some of the same argument could be applied to a fundamental Egyptian rift also, Shadowrunner13: though that particular religious struggle had more clearly divided battle lines, perhaps because the agricultural nature of the area enforced a certain political unity.) In terms of how a given individual might wish to see it, there might even a case for a pre-"classical" matriarchal period. (Shall we sidestep much debate and agree that the hard evidence for such a period is -- less than conclusive?) That's why I focus so heavily on Iliad/Odyssey -- reliably dated to (at least) centuries before the Socratic, which in turn was itself some four centuries before Christianity.
That revival is active even now. The past Olympics brought the conflict over site usage into the broader newscasts. I've tried also to use the gods' domains in the broader, elemental sense: as personifications of this or that part of nature, human beings included. For the most part, that approach leads to a very careless attitude toward human beings. Not too many of the gods or lesser deities seemed to focused on mankind's welfare. Haesphestos come closest, as one who at least somewhat harnessed natural elements into the human-useful: so task spirits could potentially link in with fire, for a bronze/iron age approach. Similarly, Demeter's domain could be pulled into the plant/herb/healing sphere. We still can't pull in the Dionysian for illusion though: wine doesn't so much disguise as touch on deeper truths, which is the antithesis of illusion. Even so, neither guardian nor guidance spirit have much resonance at all; and animal only awkwardly. For one of the widest interpretive nets around (and one of the closest in considering modern attitudes), have you read Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy? It's the one that introduced the concept of a fundamental Apollonic/Dionysian discord at the heart of Greek culture. A warning: reactions to that book also tend to be coloured by personal polemics. Nicest of all, it's short! |
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Jul 24 2007, 08:43 PM
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#30
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Perhaps, then what we need is not a Classical Tradition but rather a Pythagorean Tradition and an Aristotelean Tradition.
Neither of which, however, would seem to provide a tradition with an intimate relationship with the classical gods (i.e., Zeus/Jupiter, Ares/Mars, etc.) as listed in Street Magic, which I feel is somewhat lacking as Shadowrunner13 did with the Egyptian tradition. |
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Jul 25 2007, 08:37 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Heh, nope - but this be Dumpshock, tis not surprising ;) While broad agreement about spirits/spell categories would be nice, I tend to try to be realistic in my expectations. When it comes right down to it, complete or even majority agreement is unlikely, but that's not really my goal here. What I want is to simply hash out a workable tradition for myself that I'm happy with, as everyone else will undoubtedly do the same. Discussion aids in this goal. If that tradition does by some miracle become widely accepted, all the better.
Yup, that's exactly the way I'm seeing this. Basically, the philosophic branch (Aristotlean, Platonic, etc) is a branch of the Hermetic tradition and thus I'm not bothering to deal with them - why reinvent the wheel after all? (no offense Frank - the Aristotelean and Platonic explanations you wrote above look great, and I'd be interested in seeing complete write ups of them, as Hermetic schools maybe?) That aside, we are left IMO to focus on the religious end of the greater Hellenic tradition, which was my original purpose. If we could agree on this, I think the job would go from implausible to merely difficult ;) Regarding the Drain attribute issue, I wouldn't be adverse to giving a choice between Logic and Intuition (ala Wicca) and throwing in some fluff saying that some Hellenics tend to embrace the philosophical traditions or take a more Apollonian view whereas others keep it more shamanic/ecstatic/Dionysian.
Done that, just that I wasn't clear enough originally it seems. No biggie. But in any case, I don't think making a pan-Hellenic religious tradition is impossible, any more than making a single Norse, Hindu, or Shamanic tradition would be ;) It's simply a matter of reaching a comfortable level of abstraction.
*shudder* Definitely.
I know ;)
Sweet :D Haven't read that one yet, but I'm vaguely aware of the Apollonic/Dionysian divide, and somewhat agree with that perspective. I tend to be somewhat meh towards the functional difference of that divide though, being partial to Hekate myself and combining both Apollonic and Dionysian "themes" in my personal philosophy/practice. In retrospect, I can see how that perspective colored my initial writeup of the tradition here. Thank you Talia. Hmm...perhaps it would be advantageous to split the tradition into separate Apollonian and Dionysian traditions with separate summonable spirits and spell category links (in addition to the different Drain att)? Thoughts everyone?
Definitely agreed. Although I would see the Pythagorean and Aristotelean traditions as schools of the Hermetic tradition myself. Any volunteers to write them up? (Frank?) Regarding the broad term of Classical tradition, it is apparent that I misnamed this thread in regards to what I was going after. My bad :( That latter mentioned lack of a Hellenic religious tradition is what I hope to remedy here. |
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Jul 25 2007, 01:37 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 16-December 05 From: new jack city Member No.: 8,077 |
If i were to do this, i think i would take Franks spell and spirit model, take a mentor spirit for a god of my choosing (or in some cases they choose you) and go with intuition. My pc would be keen to honor all the gods (maybe not so much the ones that are the anti or not so friendly to my patron) but set up most of my worship under my mentor. The circle or lodge would be called a temple, were you might sacrifice animals or leave food or wine (depending on the god) and my pc would be wise to watch the heavens and earth to pick up signs from the gods, ie. looking for omens from the gods, no matter if the three birds flying by are from apollo or just three birds going to lunch. hope that helps :cyber: |
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