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Dodge Skill Is Worthless

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Feshy

Oct 25 2005, 07:41 PM

Post #51

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QUOTE

Judge Intentions (Intution+Cha) to get a general read on someone's intentions

This one confuses me -- how is it significantly different from "Sense Motive" which I can only assume is rolled with Negotiation, given that it's a specialization of that skill...

QUOTE

The one thing i don't like about Perception as a Skill is that if you don't have at least a rating of 1 you are suppose to get the Defaulting penalty of -1 die from your Intuition (i didn't notice there being an exception anywhere for Perception).

The thing *I* don't like about perception is that various objects have various modifiers. For example, a holdout pistol gives a -4 to be spotted; a heavy pistol gives no modifiers. Therefore, if characters want to glance over at Johnson and see if he's carrying, then EVERYONE must make at least two tests, one at -4, one that isn't. (Unless you use "group rules" for the team, which I never liked doing. Even then you have two rolls).

Phantom Runner

Oct 25 2005, 07:57 PM

Post #52

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QUOTE (Feshy @ Oct 25 2005, 02:41 PM)

The thing *I* don't like about perception is that various objects have various modifiers. For example, a holdout pistol gives a -4 to be spotted; a heavy pistol gives no modifiers. Therefore, if characters want to glance over at Johnson and see if he's carrying, then EVERYONE must make at least two tests, one at -4, one that isn't. (Unless you use "group rules" for the team, which I never liked doing. Even then you have two rolls).

Yup, much better to have a threshold to notice things. So to continue your examples, the Heavy Pistol would have threshold of say 2, while the Hold Out would have threshold of say 4.

Obviously concealed holsters and whatnot would up the threshold. A skill used to hide things would have hits added to the base threshold.

Then when Perception tests are called for, the player rolls, counts off successes and then you tell them what they see based on that.

At least this is how I will/would run it.

blakkie

Oct 25 2005, 08:18 PM

Post #53

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 25 2005, 03:02 AM)

QUOTE (blakkie)

The one thing i don't like about Perception as a Skill is that if you don't have at least a rating of 1 you are suppose to get the Defaulting penalty of -1 die from your Intuition

Or your Charisma when you are perceiving social information, the linked attribute of perception is not always Intuition (SR4, page 121).

Though that's not a Perception Test but the target's opposing roll against a specific Skill test. Judge Intentions is the active social perceiving, but limited to determining a target's general state of mind (and incidentally opposed by target’s Willpower + Charisma). By RAW you'd still use Perception + Intuition to actively look for spinach stuck between someone's teeth, but i guess if you roll crappy opposing the Etiquette Test you are snowed anyway? ;)

QUOTE

But yeah, dodge does not have defaulting penalties,

Where does it mention this? I haven't found it yet, and we have a PC on our team where this is applicable. I'd like to help him out by being able to say "no -1 die, it's in the rules here". In melee if the defender does not have skill rating to parry, block, or Dodge why wouldn't they get a -1 die penalty? Besides the GM choosing to have mercy on them.

QUOTE

counterspelling does not have defaulting penalties,

Well ya, but that's because you can't Default. :P Spell Defense just happens to be more obvious about that since Counterspelling dice are the only dice available for the Test, unless you have a bound focus (but the bound focus without the Counterspelling skill does not allow you to roll).

EDIT: But i guess you mean that the target of a spell doesn't receive a -1 die penalty for not being protected in any way? Ya, that it is optional to the target of the spell shows up on page 173 in the use of the words "may" and "if". Oddly that sentence actually seems to contradict the example in which the protecting mage rolls, though the example is for an AoE spell. It is actually kinda of important to who rolls the dice. If the protecting mage isn't rolling the dice (unless they are a target as well) i don't think they get to spend Edge, and it would also affect the chances of a Glitch (and who would spend the Edge to negate the Glitch).

blakkie

Oct 25 2005, 08:27 PM

Post #54

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QUOTE (Feshy)

QUOTE

Judge Intentions (Intution+Cha) to get a general read on someone's intentions

This one confuses me -- how is it significantly different from "Sense Motive" which I can only assume is rolled with Negotiation, given that it's a specialization of that skill...

Hmm, never noticed that specialization before. That's likely for specializing to oppose Con + Charisma when someone is trying to fast talk you or something. But that's just my guess.

QUOTE

The one thing i don't like about Perception as a Skill is that if you don't have at least a rating of 1 you are suppose to get the Defaulting penalty of -1 die from your Intuition (i didn't notice there being an exception anywhere for Perception).

The thing *I* don't like about perception is that various objects have various modifiers. For example, a holdout pistol gives a -4 to be spotted; a heavy pistol gives no modifiers. Therefore, if characters want to glance over at Johnson and see if he's carrying, then EVERYONE must make at least two tests, one at -4, one that isn't. (Unless you use "group rules" for the team, which I never liked doing. Even then you have two rolls).

I don't really like that at all, it ignores the strength of the fixed TN where the person looking can just roll once and the check is made for several different items. Making those numbers Theshhold modifiers like Phantom Runner suggests is a bit too much, though that's on the right track to having it work a lot better. If they were 1 Threshhold per step on the table instead of 2 that'd be about right.

Azralon View Member Profile	Oct 25 2005, 09:34 PM Post #55
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773	As with many games, Perception tests are unfortunately best handled by GM rolling rather than player rolling. Player: (rolls) "Aww, I got only 2 hits on my Assense, now I can't tell if he has bioware or not." -or- GM: (rolls) "His aura does not seem to be disturbed by the presence of bioware." And of course it's always fun to pick up the dice occasionally, roll for no immediately apparent reason, then smile at the players and continue the conversation.

PlatonicPimp View Member Profile	Oct 25 2005, 09:39 PM Post #56
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320	Hell, I want to run a game one day where The players NEVER roll their own tests. "Oh, Yeah, you did JUST FINE......" :vegm:

Phantom Runner

Oct 25 2005, 10:22 PM

Post #57

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QUOTE (blakkie)

Making those numbers Theshhold modifiers like Phantom Runner suggests is a bit too much, though that's on the right track to having it work a lot better. If they were 1 Threshhold per step on the table instead of 2 that'd be about right.

Right, my numbers were just arbitrary things thrown off the top of my head. Ideally the situation would play out like this.

Strange person walks into the bar where the runners are having a meet.
They all want to "look the guy over" to see what he might be hiding.
GM either rolls for each (group rule) or has each roll separately.

Then after successes are counted the GM simply goes down the list from easiest to see (lowest threshold) to hardest to see (highest threshold)....

Example:
Threshold / Item
1 / Ares Pred (poorly hidden)
2 / Cybereyes (custom job)
3 / Light Pistol (hidden)
drek-cetera...
drek-cetera...

blakkie View Member Profile	Oct 26 2005, 12:31 AM Post #58
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263	What about a Striker in a concealed holster? ;)

Magnus Jakobsson

Oct 26 2005, 12:48 AM

Post #59

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QUOTE (Feshy @ Oct 25 2005, 01:41 PM)

QUOTE

Judge Intentions (Intution+Cha) to get a general read on someone's intentions

This one confuses me -- how is it significantly different from "Sense Motive" which I can only assume is rolled with Negotiation, given that it's a specialization of that skill...

Actually, that's an inconsistency in the rules. There are two skills that are supposed to make you better at detecting lies (Con and Negotiation), so you shouldn't be able to do it just as well without them. But as written, the "Judge Intentions" attribute test lets you "gauge another character’s [...] honesty" by rolling Charisma + Intuition.

In my games, I think I'm going to disregard the the whole "Judge Intentions" test, and instead use Negotiation/Con or Etiquette according to the situation.

- Magnus

Superbum

Oct 26 2005, 03:29 AM

Post #60

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To the OP, I am not gonna try and find a way to work the Dodge skill out of the game like others in thread seem to want but the way dodging works in combat is simple:

vs Ranged: Reaction

vs Ranged as a Full Defense Complex Action: Reaction + Dodge

vs Melee: Reaction + Dodge or Reaction + Melee Skill

vs Melee as a Full Defense Complex Action:
Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
Reaction + Melee Skill + Dodge
Reaction + (Melee SKill x2)
Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics

If someone wants to dispute what I have said, read pg.151:

QUOTE

Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against ranged or melee attacks.

Nowhere does it say that Gymnastics is rolled instead of Dodge.

FrankTrollman

Oct 26 2005, 03:37 AM

Post #61

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Superbum, that's so wrong that I feel dumber after having read it. While you did successfully quote the rules of a gymnastic dodge, you forgot this part:

QUOTE (SR4)

Full defense can either be taken as a full dodge, full parry, or gymnastic dodge.

So yes, it jolly well says that gymnastics is added instead of dodge. The rule that allows you to add gymnastics as an action is exclusive to adding your dodge. It's just that simple.

So the actual table looks like this:

vs Ranged:
Reaction

vs Ranged as a Full Defense Complex Action:
Reaction + Dodge
or
Reaction + Gymnastics.

vs Melee: Reaction + Dodge
or Reaction + Melee Skill

vs Melee as a Full Defense Complex Action:
Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
or
Reaction + Melee Skill + Dodge
or
Reaction + (Melee SKill x2)
or
Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics
or
Reaction + Melee Skill + Gymnastics

Superbum

Oct 26 2005, 05:30 AM

Post #62

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QUOTE

QUOTE (SR4)

Full defense can either be taken as a full dodge, full parry, or gymnastic dodge.

So yes, it jolly well says that gymnastics is added instead of dodge. The rule that allows you to add gymnastics as an action is exclusive to adding your dodge. It's just that simple.

No, point to me where it says "in place of" in the book.

While it does say you can use Gymnastics Dodge against ranged attacks, I will concede the fact to you that I forgot to mention the highlight parts below:

QUOTE

vs Ranged as a Full Defense Complex Action:
Reaction + Dodge
or
Reaction + Gymnastics

However, you are wrong about:

QUOTE

Reaction + Melee Skill + Gymnastics

The description of Gymnastics Dodge says nothing of using melee skills. It is purely so the person can roll Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics vs Melee Attacks.

So besides my leaving out 1 thing, my post was pretty solid and sound. Thank you and goodnight.

FrankTrollman

Oct 26 2005, 05:49 AM

Post #63

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QUOTE (Superbum)

The description of Gymnastics Dodge says nothing of using melee skills. It is purely so the person can roll Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics vs Melee Attacks.

The description of gymnastic dodge doesn't need to mention your melee skill. What it says is:

QUOTE

Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.

And your dice pool is:

QUOTE

Defenders have three choices for defending against unarmed attacks. If they have a melee weapon in hand, they can parry the attack by rolling Reaction + the appropriate weapon skill. If they have Unarmed Combat skill, they can choose to block by rolling Reaction + Unarmed Combat. Or they can simply dodge out of the way using Reaction + Dodge.

So rolling Reaction + Melee Skill is already defined as potentially being your dice pool on page 147. So when you add your gymnastics skill to that dice pool, what do you think happens?

-Frank

Superbum View Member Profile	Oct 26 2005, 06:02 AM Post #64
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097	Please, it is cleary designed to be an addition to Dodge not a replacement. The wording is terrible and leads to people thinking the way you are. If you take a Full Defense option you only have 3 choices with regards to Melee: Full Dodge: Reaction + Dodge + Dodge or Reaction + Melee Skill + Dodge Full Parry: Reaction + (Melee Skill x2) and finally Gymnastics Dodge: Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics If they wanted something like what you are talking about they would have mentioned something like this: "Gymnastics Parry:" "Reaction + Melee Skill + Gymnastics"

Gothic Rose View Member Profile	Oct 26 2005, 06:09 AM Post #65
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803	While admittedly, it sounds kind of wonky, I agree with Frank that you can use your Rea+Melee+Gymnastics... Besides, that leads to scenes where you're doing awesome backflips while parrying blows left and right. SR4 needs to be more like Exalted.

RunnerPaul

Oct 26 2005, 01:15 PM

Post #66

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QUOTE (Gothic Rose)

SR4 needs to be more like Exalted.

I thought it already was.

PlatonicPimp View Member Profile	Oct 26 2005, 05:49 PM Post #67
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320	Well, USUALLY the PCs in SR aren't reincarnated gods. There are exceptions.

Feshy

Oct 26 2005, 09:33 PM

Post #68

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QUOTE (Superbum)

Please, it is cleary designed to be an addition to Dodge not a replacement. The wording is terrible and leads to people thinking the way you are.

If you take a Full Defense option you only have 3 choices with regards to Melee:
Full Dodge:
Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
or
Reaction + Melee Skill + Dodge

Full Parry:
Reaction + (Melee Skill x2)

and finally Gymnastics Dodge:
Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics

If they wanted something like what you are talking about they would have mentioned something like this:
"Gymnastics Parry:"
"Reaction + Melee Skill + Gymnastics"

I think this is correct, actually... looking at the RAW. Though, the wording really could use some clarification. Of course, I've said that about this book a good two dozen times already, so... par for the course I guess.

Though, in my games, I'd have to agree with:

QUOTE

Besides, that leads to scenes where you're doing awesome backflips while parrying blows left and right.

But I am pretty sure this would be a house rule, not RAW.

QUOTE

Well, USUALLY the PCs in SR aren't reincarnated gods. There are exceptions.

I was going to disagree, but you did say player characters, not players. I guess we can't all be like me. :)

PlatonicPimp

Oct 26 2005, 09:36 PM

Post #69

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QUOTE (Feshy)

I was going to disagree, but you did say player characters, not players. I guess we can't all be like me. :)

Bah, What kind of wussy god dies in the first place.

Oh, wait. One who didn't invest points in dodge.

Michael K

Oct 26 2005, 10:07 PM

Post #70

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QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

Well, USUALLY the PCs in SR aren't reincarnated gods. There are exceptions.

I don't feel like an exception, but there you are.

And on second thought I really like the idea of backflip-parrying with my char. Let's see what my GM says to it.

hyzmarca

Oct 27 2005, 01:06 AM

Post #71

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QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

QUOTE (Feshy @ Oct 26 2005, 09:33 PM)

I was going to disagree, but you did say player characters, not players. I guess we can't all be like me. :)

Bah, What kind of wussy god dies in the first place.

Oh, wait. One who didn't invest points in dodge.

What is the dice pool modifier to dodge a spear while nailed to a giant wooden cross by one's wrists and feet?

blakkie View Member Profile	Oct 27 2005, 05:31 AM Post #72
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263	Whatever it is apparently it's really, really big. :(

Hasaku View Member Profile	Oct 27 2005, 06:33 AM Post #73
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 282 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 197	Longinus used his magical radio brain to shut down Christ's Wired II, so he wasn't allowed a dodge roll. Stupid GM probably fudged the roll, too.

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