Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Dodge Skill Is Worthless
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Zen Shooter01
Pg. 151 of the BBB states the Gymnastics skill may be substituted for Dodge. So why take Dodge, which is good only for dodging, when you can take Gymnastics, which is good not only for dodging, but jumping, tumbling, and other tricks?

Am I the first to notice this?
LoseAsDirected
Good catch. No idea what the official ruling on that would be, but here's my take on it.

You can take a specialization with the Dodge skill and get bonus dice, but there is no Dodge specialization for Gymnastics. Though I suppose if you specialized in 'Tumbling' and 'Tumbled' as part of your Gymnastic dodge it'd work the same way.

And I think this was part of the rules in SR3, but you have to have ample room to use Gymnastics. This is, apparently, not true of Dodge.

All in all, it is a fair question. Anyone else have a take on it?
Earthwalker
I also thought that Gymnastics only works for dodging ranged combat.

Of course if you get a good melee skill the point stands why get dodge when you can get Gymnastics.
Synner
I think this has been visited before. Yep, see here.
Dogsoup
QUOTE (Earthwalker)
Of course if you get a good melee skill the point stands why get dodge when you can get Gymnastics.

On the other hand only Dodge is really relevant in melee full defense: Why roll AGI+Dodge+Melee skill when you can just have a high dodge rating and roll AGI+[Dodge*2].
Squinky
Its cheaper to get imp abiltiy for and there are supporting bioware like synthacardium, and enh articulation that helps gymnastics....

I still see no reason beyond roleplaying (not every body wants to be a circus performer) not to just go gymnastics....
snowRaven
Because there are instances where Gymnastics can't be used, and Dodge can. Simple as that.

Of course, most of the time Gymnastics is the 'better' choice, but not always.
Cain
QUOTE
Because there are instances where Gymnastics can't be used, and Dodge can. Simple as that.

That's the question, though-- what might those be? I can't see any exceptions in the nBBB.
Squinky
Anytime you have the ability to move around enough to dodge, you should have enough room to "dodge" with gymnastics...

Unless there is something in the rules stating otherwise...

There are more instances when gymnastics would be used, as compared to doge, it would be useful outside of combat...
FrankTrollman
If you purchase dodge, you don't need to purchase Unarmed Combat or Gymnastics. Of course, if you already have unarmed combat, then any points you spend in Dodge would be better spent on Gymnastics, as that would also allow you to ninja flip out of windows. And if you already have Gymnastics, any points spent on Dodge are better spent on Unarmed Combat, which would also let you axe-kick people in the crotch.

In short, if your character has either Gymnastics or Unarmed Combat, don't get dodge. If you are real sure that you intend to get neither of those skills, Dodge may be the right choice for you.

Although... how many Shadowrunners don't have Athletics?

-Frank
Eyeless Blond
Well mine doesn't, but then I'm trying to convert a lightly-cybered decker/shaman, which is to say I have no BP to spend on mere trivialities like physical attributes or skills. nyahnyah.gif

But for everyone else, I agree.
Squinky
Frank summed up everything I intend to do in SR4: Ninja flip out windows and Axe kick to the crotch.

That my friend, is REAL ULTIMATE POWER!:
http://www.realultimatepower.net/
snowRaven
QUOTE (Squinky)
That my friend, is REAL ULTIMATE POWER!:
http://www.realultimatepower.net/

Oh god...not again... rotfl.gif
snowRaven
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 23 2005, 10:15 PM)
QUOTE
Because there are instances where Gymnastics can't be used, and Dodge can. Simple as that.

That's the question, though-- what might those be? I can't see any exceptions in the nBBB.

There is one notable exception, and that is in when defending in melee combat.

You may use either your weapon skill to parry (assuming you are holding the weapon), your unarmed skill to block, or your dodge skill to dodge.

Now, if we start by taking for granted that you do not have a weapon, these are the reasons to use dodge instead of unarmed combat.
a) you lack the unarmed combat skill, as Frank pointed out.
b) your attacked with a weapon that inflicts damage on contact.

Now, granted, I'm not sure if the SR4 rules really reflect the fact that blocking a contact-weapon or a monowhip is at best harder and at worst a bad idea...but they should.

To clarify: Gymnastics can only be used in Full Dodge situations, while Dodge also applies in melee combat defense. Add to that, that your choices or a Gymnastics dodge in melee would be: Reaction+weapon skill+gymnastics, Reaction+unarmed skill+gymnastics (not really sure how you make an 'acrobatic block or parry' though), or Reaction+Dodge+Gymnastics.
Hasaku
Some kind of house-rule to that effect would certainly make the monowhip more attractive, despite the increased chance for autodismemberment. Something like: if you parry, your weapon takes the damage, and unarmed blocking is simply impossible?
snowRaven
IMO, defense against a monowhip should be limited to dodging, and possibly parrying where you use your weapon to keep the attacker from safely getting at you with the whip - blocking should be the same as being unaware, I think - no need to even roll the dice, simply count no successes.

(As a GM, I'm almost inclined to let the attacker hit the blocking target even if he rolls no successes, as long as the blocking character rolls any hits.)
blakkie
QUOTE
Now, granted, I'm not sure if the SR4 rules really reflect the fact that blocking a contact-weapon or a monowhip is at best harder and at worst a bad idea...but they should.


SR doesn't really have the idea of an easier "Touch" attack.

I also think it is wrong to assume that when defending with Unarmed that the defender would actually have his "weapon" contact the business end of the attacker's weapon. Afterall if someone throws a punch at you do you [normally] hit/contact their fist to defend yourself?
snowRaven
QUOTE (blakkie)
SR doesn't really have the idea of an easier "Touch" attack.

I also think it is wrong to assume that when defending with Unarmed that the defender would actually have his "weapon" contact the business end of the attacker's weapon. Afterall if someone throws a punch at you do you [normally] hit/contact their fist to defend yourself?

Actually, it does, you get +2 dice when attacking with a 'touch only' attack.

As for blocking...no, you'd genreally not 'block' the business end of the fist/foot, you'd steer the arm/leg away by making contact with the arm or fist - something that'd be very undesired if the item you are blocking is a monowhip or a mage that only has to touch you.

Or, you'd dodge away from the blow without touching your opponent - hence using the reaction+dodge option...
blakkie
QUOTE (snowRaven)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 23 2005, 11:32 PM)
SR doesn't really have the idea of an easier "Touch" attack.

I also think it is wrong to assume that when defending with Unarmed that the defender would actually have his "weapon" contact the business end of the attacker's weapon.  Afterall if someone throws a punch at you do you [normally] hit/contact their fist to defend yourself?

Actually, it does, you get +2 dice when attacking with a 'touch only' attack.

missed that one, which page?

QUOTE
As for blocking...no, you'd genreally not 'block' the business end of the fist/foot, you'd steer the arm/leg away by making contact with the arm or fist - something that'd be very undesired if the item you are blocking is a monowhip or a mage that only has to touch you.


Monowhip a touch only?????
Squinky
Pg. 148
Apathy
When being attacked with something edgy or pointy, don't most people try to block the arm/wrist/hand holding the weapon rather than the weapon itself?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Apathy)
When being attacked with something edgy or pointy, don't most people try to block the arm/wrist/hand holding the weapon rather than the weapon itself?

Unless you're Neo.
warrior_allanon
depends on how they are attacking, what with and what kinda guards you have in place on your own body for instance:

person takes a sidearm tennis style swing at you with a club staff, or baton and you have decent impact body armor. you could, using your unarmed combat skill, allow the blow to connect and then trap your opponants weapon to allow for a multiple blow counter attack

now lets change the situation:

person takes a lunging stab at you with a long bladed weapon (sword or spear of somekind), you have a hard plastic or thick leather van brace, (forearm guard) on each arm but no other impact armor, your best bet to allow a counter or even disarm your opponant would be an inside to outside wave to brush aside the blade and or your opponants arm while simultaneously attacking with the other fist or weapon in your primary hand


over the top slashing attack or from the bottom it would be in your best interest to block the arm,


unarmed combat to those properly trained can be used quite well against an armed assailant
nick012000
Or you could default to Reaction + Agility + Combat skill -1, right?

Or to Reaction + Agility x2 -2.
Hasaku
QUOTE (Apathy @ Oct 23 2005, 07:27 PM)
When being attacked with something edgy or pointy, don't most people try to block the arm/wrist/hand holding the weapon rather than the weapon itself?

Kinda hard to do this when the weapon in question is a 2+ meter whip that's liable to slice off anything it contacts, at least while it's being swung. Hence, the no-blocking-monowhips houserule, which represents the fact that trying to block one is essentially saying, "I never liked that arm anyway."

Parry and hope only your weapon gets shredded or dodge and avoid contact all together. I could only see blocking if you were somehow immune to the effects of the whip, like having monofilament weave sewn into your clothing.
FrankTrollman
The goal then, would be for you to place your offending body parts right next to your opponent's. If he wants to bring a monowire cutting surface across your arm, it'll take his with it - meaning that he's going to have to bring his whip out towards your rear, which gives you more time to get in and land a few punches.

A man with a monowhip and some skill is going to be scary no matter what you do, but I can't see the argument that close combat training wouldn't be good to have in that situation.

-Frank
hobgoblin
hmm, maybe get some ceramic forearm guards? just make sure to catch it at the far end so that it dont have enough length to slice of something important smile.gif

or maybe get gloves with ceramic insets so that you can grab the wire...
Llewelyn
If I am close enough to attack him with my fists then I am close enough to block his arm and not the whip. I think there would need to be other house rules for this, so if you are in unarmed melee range then the whip would be at a disadvantage also. It could be very complicated in the long run. dead.gif
hobgoblin
thing is that blocking the arm and not the whip may not help you as the whip may well swing around and hit you in the back or similar. thats one of the things that makes a monowhip so dangerous. its basicly a very long, fexible sword.
wavydavy

To me, Dodge seems an out-of-place skill compared to the rest of the combat skills, as does specifiying parry/block/dodge full defense options.

We've got three hugely broad close combat skills, Blades, Clubs and Unarmed, that fold in all sorts of close combat ideas/approches/artforms. Included in most (all?) these martial art forms (from boxing to fencing to karate) is the idea of 'dodging' attacks as well as parrying/blocking attacks (same thing really), including many effective techniques form unarmed 'blocking' of armed attacks. And a close combat complex action is not supposed to represent a single blow, rather a serious of strikes, dodges, parrys and blocks taking about 3 seconds.

Dodge in this light seems to be a very narrow combat skill. Does anyone know of any existing martial skill that teaches you just to dodge? I don't. I'd be more inclinded to make Defense a specialisation of any close combat skill (replacing parrying/blocking). A character defending in melee would get to roll their close combat skill in defense (with specialisation if applicable), which could involve dodging, parrying and blocking.

For melee full defense, they roll 2x skill. For this gymnastics can also be used (maybe not doubled, to stop it being an overly powerful skill). They are just defending, not specifically dodging, parrying, or blocking. Some further thoughts:

  • If they are specifically trying to dodge (to avoid touch attack), I'd give them a penalty because their defensive options are limited (-2 seems standard).

  • One of the motivations for the Dodge skill seems to be that it allows non-combat PCs to take a skill to avoid getting hurt, rather than inflicting damage, maybe as a game balance thing. However they could just take a close combat skill at a low level and specialise in
    defense. This is probably more realistic, as they probably went to some self defense classes to learn how to Dodge anyway. (Hmm, self defense as a martial art anyone? :)

  • Defensive martial arts like (IRC) aikido could grant a bonus to defensive use of the skill.


This works for me in terms of melee combat (and its simple, which I tend to favour), but what about ranged? This would reduce Dodge to being Dodge Ranged Attack. Is there such thing as a bullet dodging skill? How do you safely train to dodge bullets? I'm dubious. For me full defense is about making your self as hard to hit as possible, by moving around erratically, etc. I think this would be a specialisation of gymnastics (and possibly running?), probably called Dodging. It similar to the skills you learn as kid when you play tig/tag/chase/bulldogs/whatever. I suspect some military training may incorporate some form of 'how get from A to B without getting hit' training.

So for full defense, I'd probably allow the character to roll reaction + gymnastics (and maybe running) with specialisations, defaulting to agility.

For existing chars with dodge skill, I'd just convert it to gymnastics. I think gymnastics is terrible name for a skill that involves jumping (which most of us can do), as it sets up idea of our characters looking like olympic gymnasts, rather than agile street gangers (or whatever :). I go for a relaxed interretation of the word gymnastics for many of my chars.

Anyway, RIP Dodge, I for one won't miss you :)

WavyDavy
Eyeless Blond
So, Dodge gets rolled into Gymnastics and called Tumbling? Acrobatics? Maneuvering? Mobility?

Contortion? biggrin.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (wavydavy @ Oct 24 2005, 07:00 AM)
I think gymnastics is terrible name for a skill that involves jumping (which most of us can do),

??? Sure, and most of us can pull a trigger to fire a weapon as well. wobble.gif Which is why both skills can be used untrained.

QUOTE
as it sets up idea of our characters looking like olympic gymnasts, rather than agile street gangers (or whatever smile.gif. I go for a relaxed interretation of the word gymnastics for many of my chars.


You mean like the dictionary informal? Sure. But take a look at the specializations in the skill description, it includes "Breakfall". That doesn't really say to me "spandex clad Olympian prancing around a padded mat." nyahnyah.gif

So what would your choice of a single word to include all those things in that specialization list and description?
Nikoli
Could always use the climbing gloves to grab the whip.The Microwire tha tyou can use when wearing he gloves has the same damage code as the whip. Say to be that the gloves are effecting in dealing with the whip.
Apathy
I've always disliked the idea that monowhips slice things in to little bits just by coming in contact with them. Yeah, they're really sharp, but they've got no mass. When I've imagined it used, I saw it as the 'whipper' swinging the whip so that it wrapped around the target (limb, or neck, or whatever). and then gave the whip a good yank to apply force to the edge in contact.
wavydavy
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
So, Dodge gets rolled into Gymnastics and called Tumbling? Acrobatics? Maneuvering? Mobility?

Contortion? :D


How about Tactical Evasive Manuevering or Bullet Dodgin'? :)

Or maybe just call the specialisation Dodging

;)
wavydavy
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (wavydavy @ Oct 24 2005, 07:00 AM)
I think gymnastics is terrible name for a skill that involves jumping (which most of us can do),

??? Sure, and most of us can pull a trigger to fire a weapon as well. :wobble: Which is why both skills can be used untrained.


Fair point.. I just remember when converting my low level street ganger to SR4, who learned to run zig zag through Pullyapup Barrens, jump over fences and across gaps, and was good at it (SR3 Athletics 4), using the word Gymnastics to descibe it felt wierd, as he'd never been inside a Gym, or seen a horse. Of any kind :)

(And I know I could just take the Athletics skill group, but dammit, the boy has never learned to swim! Or climb, for that matter)

Also, having trained in Gymnastics myself, I see it as a regimented, strict dicsipline (at least where I went it was). Compared to say, free running, which is wild and crazy in comparision, but in SR4 terms, would be the same skill.

QUOTE
So what would your choice of a single word to include all those things in that specialization list and description?


I dunno about names, maybe acrobatics <shrug>

Dun't matter really, I'll probably stick to Gymnastics to save confusion - I know what I mean :)
blakkie
QUOTE (wavydavy)
Also, having trained in Gymnastics myself, I see it as a regimented, strict dicsipline (at least where I went it was). Compared to say, free running, which is wild and crazy in comparision, but in SR4 terms, would be the same skill.

A lot of things are lumped together like that in SR4 skills. Weapons and vehicles are usually the ones you first notice. For example driving a motorcycle is the same skill as driving a car or piloting a hovercraft. *shrug*

Of course your own background does colour your perspective a bit on this, which is normal. Personally i find the wierder part of the name is that dancing is included. *shrug* Athletics might not have been a bad name, except they used that even broader name bundle the skill in with Climbing, Swimming, and Running.
Phantom Runner
There are a few things with the new rules that I don't like (after finally getting the book and reading it). Dodge skill is on the top of my list. I love that in nWoD (yes blasphemy mentioning it) they got rid of the Dodge skill completely and the reasoning made absolute sense to me.

So if/when I finally get to do an SR4 game I will get rid of the Dodge skill and instead full defense will be Reaction + Intuition. End of story. No skills for dodging.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Apathy)
I've always disliked the idea that monowhips slice things in to little bits just by coming in contact with them. Yeah, they're really sharp, but they've got no mass. When I've imagined it used, I saw it as the 'whipper' swinging the whip so that it wrapped around the target (limb, or neck, or whatever). and then gave the whip a good yank to apply force to the edge in contact.

It's got a weight on the end, I always assumed the goal was to swing it around really fast such that the whip was taught and the weight arced past your opponent, carrying the cheese cutter through them. Like the death wheel that Kali used in Creatures of Light and Darkness.

Different people would put noise makers or glowing lights in the weighted end to make it properly intimidating. All told, a monowhip user in combat should look like a diabolo dancer.

No "whipping" involved. Just like chain fighting, it should be all about the spin.

-Frank
RunnerPaul
You can also reel out just a foot of the monowhip, grab the weight, and use it to garrote someone. However, garroting someone usually involves surprise attacks from behind, and full defense doesn't come into play with those.

I'll agree with the earlier posts though. Despite being molecularly sharp, monowhips need some kind of force to do damage, and whip itself doesn't mass enough to get momentum, it's the force of the weight at the end. The scene from Johnny Mnemonic where the yak with the cyberthumb flips a loop of his monowhip through the door to slice the portion of the door with the knob and deadbolt out, while cool, wouldn't happen.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Llewelyn @ Oct 24 2005, 08:21 AM)
If I am close enough to attack him with my fists then I am close enough to block his arm and not the whip. I think there would need to be other house rules for this, so if you are in unarmed melee range then the whip would be at a disadvantage also. It could be very complicated in the long run. dead.gif

except blocking a whip, or another similar weapon, in that manner will often cause the whip to snap towards you...

This might not be a big deal with a bullwip, might hurt alot with a chain, and might be lethal with a monowhip.


Regarding monowhip cutting power: the sharper something is, the less force will be needed to cut into the other material. The Johnny Mnemonic 'lopping off' of the lock is out, yes, but even slight movement should be enough to cut into you if you lay the monoline across an arm or so and pull. Compare paper cuts, or a razor blade drawn along the skin - you don't need much force or momentum at all'. (Of course, such slight motion won't inflict much of a cut, but the target's body moving may very well be all you need to aggravate that damage, once you've made first contact)
wavydavy
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (wavydavy @ Oct 24 2005, 09:34 AM)
Also, having trained in Gymnastics myself, I see it as a regimented, strict dicsipline (at least where I went it was). Compared to say, free running, which is wild and crazy in comparision, but in SR4 terms, would be the same skill.


A lot of things are lumped together like that in SR4 skills. Weapons and vehicles are usually the ones you first notice. For example driving a motorcycle is the same skill as driving a car or piloting a hovercraft. *shrug*


True, but they have more generic names. Pilot ground craft does what it says on the tin. Gymnastics is open to more specific interpretations, IMO

QUOTE (blakkie)

Of course your own background does colour your perspective a bit on this, which is normal.  Personally i find the wierder part of the name is that dancing is included. *shrug*


Ha! I specifically did gymnastics to improve my dancing! :D

I have an physad character that is a proffesional ballet dancer by day, so I was glad that was included. In sr3, I had to have a whole sperate skill for dancing that was only used in performance cases. Know I get to specialise in dancing and have a useful skill as well. Bonus! :)
Kyoto Kid
As I mentioned in a thread on character conversion - Dodge should have remained an "everyman" combat action (based on a straight up Agility Attribute test or a function of Agility + Quickness) and not been turned into a unique skill.

The same should have held true for Perception (Intuition attribute test)
blakkie
QUOTE
Agility + Quickness


You probably mean Reaction plus Agility? Quickness go bye-bye. Anyway Agility is already an extremely key attribute in combat. It doesn't really need any more uses.

Reaction already is the everyman combat non-action action.

In melee Reaction again is the everyman combat non-action action in addition to whatever their best available melee combat skill is (as in previous SR). They are also given the option to substitute Dodge skill in place of whatever melee skill if they want.

Now we get to the defensive combat action. By spending a Complex Action the character can use the Dodge skill for any attacks coming from one of their actions until the next (if they choose on there turn) or in direct response to a single attack at the time that it is made.

Basically it is a specific action that characters can choose whether or not to use, and so they associated a particular skill with it.

Personally although i find the option to substitute Gymnastics very odd, i'm not sure why you'd see Dodge being a place to sink karma as a particularly bad thing. It's not like you have to have it. It's just good if you are the turtling sort, which you are likely to be if you have poor Reaction and find yourself being shot at and/or pummeled.

Besides unless you stop making melee an opposed skill, which i suppose is possible but i'm not entirely sure desirable, characters that only want to be able to defend themselves in melee need to sink karma into something.

Perception checks? *shrug* Where would the extra dice come from? The idea there was likely to spread definition of the character in play out from the attributes, to counter what happens when you use attributes directly as part of [nearly] every die roll.
Kyoto Kid
So, as I read it, Reaction can be used in a dodge situation, correct?

Now I have not as of yet digested all of the combat rules & options. so I still find myself falling back on what I know from previous releases. I still have difficulty with making actions like Dodge and Perception into a unique skill that has to be learned. I actually find it simpler to say "Make an intuition test" to notice a sound or something out the corner of your eye or "Make an Agility/Reaction test" to duck out of the way of that speeding car. There really is no 'learned' skill for this as it is more sharpness of mind and/or eye-body coordination which are primarily attribute driven.

I could see positive qualities like "Perceptive" or "Agile" coming into play and adding the appropriate number of dice to the test. But these too are natural as opposed to learned abilities. Likewise, certain augmentations (Select Sound Filter, Enhanced Articulation, Cerebral Booster etc) would also have an impact.

I agree that in some cases, like for example a football player, one may develop an extra edge at say dodging a tackle or a block. However, I see it as being more inferred by concentration of the athletics skill in the sport of football as opposed to a separate and distinct skill in and of it's own.
blakkie
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Oct 24 2005, 09:08 PM)
So, as I read it, Reaction can be used in a dodge situation, correct?

Not only can it, it is always the base of the dice for avoiding a ranged or melee attack.

BTW there are still a few Attribute only tests where add two Attributes to get your die pool. Composure (Will+Cha) which is used in a lot of situations like the old Willpower(6) tests for Totems drawbacks, Judge Intentions (Intution+Cha) to get a general read on someone's intentions, Lifting/Carrying (Body+Str) for very heavy loads, and Memory (Logic+Will) to recall details. I believe that avoiding addiction or deeper addiction is also a double Attribute only test but i forget offhand which ones.

For Perception you just call for a Perception Check/Test like before. Instead of giving them a TN you just let them know how many dice to subtract for situational modifiers (or ask them for their base die pool if you like to roll it yourself).

The one thing i don't like about Perception as a Skill is that if you don't have at least a rating of 1 you are suppose to get the Defaulting penalty of -1 die from your Intuition (i didn't notice there being an exception anywhere for Perception). That i'm not big on at all, and will likely ignore when it is my choice. Though ultimately there isn't much reason not to take a point or two in a skill you'll use a fair amount even with a high linked Attribute. Skill 1 is actually a good thing in SR now.

With Dodge you don't really have to worry about that since you aren't going to use Full Defense unless you have a rating in the Skill (with no rating you'd spend a Complex Action for no benefit). In melee if you have no Unarmed Combat, no melee weapon in had [in which you are trained], and no Dodge skill....well you are already in quite the pickle. Let us hope you know how to convincingly plead "No más! No más!" wink.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (blakkie)
I believe that avoiding addiction or deeper addiction is also a double Attribute only test but i forget offhand which ones.


Mental Addiction is Logic + Willpower, Physical Addiction is Body + Willpower.

And of course, Drain Resistance is Willpower + Tradition's Key Attribute (Logic, Charisma, or Intuition).

Finally, there's the good old fashion Initiative/Surprise test (Intuition + Reaction). Remember that the party Street Sam rolls like 14 dice on this test, and is thus quite likely to "surprise" people who are supposed to be ambushing him. Just like every previous edition ever.

QUOTE (blakkie)
The one thing i don't like about Perception as a Skill is that if you don't have at least a rating of 1 you are suppose to get the Defaulting penalty of -1 die from your Intuition


Or your Charisma when you are perceiving social information, the linked attribute of perception is not always Intuition (SR4, page 121). But yeah, dodge does not have defaulting penalties, counterspelling does not have defaulting penalties, Perception shouldn't have defaulting penalties either.

-Frank
NightRain
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Finally, there's the good old fashion Initiative/Surprise test (Intuition + Reaction). Remember that the party Street Sam rolls like 14 dice on this test, and is thus quite likely to "surprise" people who are supposed to be ambushing him. Just like every previous edition ever.

Not in 4th Ed.

To quote

"Ambushing characters, however, are automatically not surprised by the characters they are ambushing—assuming they are aware of the movement and actions of their target(s)"
Phantom Runner
[Edit : Forget all that crap...]

I think for Full Defense vs. ranged attackes I will have Defenders roll Reaction + Reaction. Simple.

"Dodging" vs. Melee attacks is the same Reaction + Reaction. Parrying and Blocking will remain the same (Reaction + Skill). Full Defense vs. melee will be Reaction + Reaction. Again, simple.
Lord Ben
Obviously if you can "dodge" bullets it shouldn't be that much of a stretch to also "block" a monowhip. It's just the skill.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012