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Feshy
QUOTE
Judge Intentions (Intution+Cha) to get a general read on someone's intentions


This one confuses me -- how is it significantly different from "Sense Motive" which I can only assume is rolled with Negotiation, given that it's a specialization of that skill...

QUOTE
The one thing i don't like about Perception as a Skill is that if you don't have at least a rating of 1 you are suppose to get the Defaulting penalty of -1 die from your Intuition (i didn't notice there being an exception anywhere for Perception).


The thing *I* don't like about perception is that various objects have various modifiers. For example, a holdout pistol gives a -4 to be spotted; a heavy pistol gives no modifiers. Therefore, if characters want to glance over at Johnson and see if he's carrying, then EVERYONE must make at least two tests, one at -4, one that isn't. (Unless you use "group rules" for the team, which I never liked doing. Even then you have two rolls).
Phantom Runner
QUOTE (Feshy @ Oct 25 2005, 02:41 PM)
The thing *I* don't like about perception is that various objects have various modifiers.  For example, a holdout pistol gives a -4 to be spotted; a heavy pistol gives no modifiers.  Therefore, if characters want to glance over at Johnson and see if he's carrying, then EVERYONE must make at least two tests, one at -4, one that isn't.  (Unless you use "group rules" for the team, which I never liked doing.  Even then you have two rolls).

Yup, much better to have a threshold to notice things. So to continue your examples, the Heavy Pistol would have threshold of say 2, while the Hold Out would have threshold of say 4.

Obviously concealed holsters and whatnot would up the threshold. A skill used to hide things would have hits added to the base threshold.

Then when Perception tests are called for, the player rolls, counts off successes and then you tell them what they see based on that.

At least this is how I will/would run it.
blakkie
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 25 2005, 03:02 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie)
The one thing i don't like about Perception as a Skill is that if you don't have at least a rating of 1 you are suppose to get the Defaulting penalty of -1 die from your Intuition


Or your Charisma when you are perceiving social information, the linked attribute of perception is not always Intuition (SR4, page 121).

Though that's not a Perception Test but the target's opposing roll against a specific Skill test. Judge Intentions is the active social perceiving, but limited to determining a target's general state of mind (and incidentally opposed by targetís Willpower + Charisma). By RAW you'd still use Perception + Intuition to actively look for spinach stuck between someone's teeth, but i guess if you roll crappy opposing the Etiquette Test you are snowed anyway? wink.gif

QUOTE
But yeah, dodge does not have defaulting penalties,


Where does it mention this? I haven't found it yet, and we have a PC on our team where this is applicable. I'd like to help him out by being able to say "no -1 die, it's in the rules here". In melee if the defender does not have skill rating to parry, block, or Dodge why wouldn't they get a -1 die penalty? Besides the GM choosing to have mercy on them.

QUOTE
counterspelling does not have defaulting penalties,


Well ya, but that's because you can't Default. nyahnyah.gif Spell Defense just happens to be more obvious about that since Counterspelling dice are the only dice available for the Test, unless you have a bound focus (but the bound focus without the Counterspelling skill does not allow you to roll).

EDIT: But i guess you mean that the target of a spell doesn't receive a -1 die penalty for not being protected in any way? Ya, that it is optional to the target of the spell shows up on page 173 in the use of the words "may" and "if". Oddly that sentence actually seems to contradict the example in which the protecting mage rolls, though the example is for an AoE spell. It is actually kinda of important to who rolls the dice. If the protecting mage isn't rolling the dice (unless they are a target as well) i don't think they get to spend Edge, and it would also affect the chances of a Glitch (and who would spend the Edge to negate the Glitch).
blakkie
QUOTE (Feshy)
QUOTE
Judge Intentions (Intution+Cha) to get a general read on someone's intentions


This one confuses me -- how is it significantly different from "Sense Motive" which I can only assume is rolled with Negotiation, given that it's a specialization of that skill...

Hmm, never noticed that specialization before. That's likely for specializing to oppose Con + Charisma when someone is trying to fast talk you or something. But that's just my guess.

QUOTE
QUOTE
The one thing i don't like about Perception as a Skill is that if you don't have at least a rating of 1 you are suppose to get the Defaulting penalty of -1 die from your Intuition (i didn't notice there being an exception anywhere for Perception).


The thing *I* don't like about perception is that various objects have various modifiers. For example, a holdout pistol gives a -4 to be spotted; a heavy pistol gives no modifiers. Therefore, if characters want to glance over at Johnson and see if he's carrying, then EVERYONE must make at least two tests, one at -4, one that isn't. (Unless you use "group rules" for the team, which I never liked doing. Even then you have two rolls).


I don't really like that at all, it ignores the strength of the fixed TN where the person looking can just roll once and the check is made for several different items. Making those numbers Theshhold modifiers like Phantom Runner suggests is a bit too much, though that's on the right track to having it work a lot better. If they were 1 Threshhold per step on the table instead of 2 that'd be about right.
Azralon
As with many games, Perception tests are unfortunately best handled by GM rolling rather than player rolling.

Player: (rolls) "Aww, I got only 2 hits on my Assense, now I can't tell if he has bioware or not."

-or-

GM: (rolls) "His aura does not seem to be disturbed by the presence of bioware."

And of course it's always fun to pick up the dice occasionally, roll for no immediately apparent reason, then smile at the players and continue the conversation.
PlatonicPimp
Hell, I want to run a game one day where The players NEVER roll their own tests. "Oh, Yeah, you did JUST FINE......" vegm.gif
Phantom Runner
QUOTE (blakkie)
Making those numbers Theshhold modifiers like Phantom Runner suggests is a bit too much, though that's on the right track to having it work a lot better. If they were 1 Threshhold per step on the table instead of 2 that'd be about right.

Right, my numbers were just arbitrary things thrown off the top of my head. Ideally the situation would play out like this.

Strange person walks into the bar where the runners are having a meet.
They all want to "look the guy over" to see what he might be hiding.
GM either rolls for each (group rule) or has each roll separately.

Then after successes are counted the GM simply goes down the list from easiest to see (lowest threshold) to hardest to see (highest threshold)....

Example:
Threshold / Item
1 / Ares Pred (poorly hidden)
2 / Cybereyes (custom job)
3 / Light Pistol (hidden)
drek-cetera...
drek-cetera...
blakkie
What about a Striker in a concealed holster? wink.gif
Magnus Jakobsson
QUOTE (Feshy @ Oct 25 2005, 01:41 PM)
QUOTE
Judge Intentions (Intution+Cha) to get a general read on someone's intentions


This one confuses me -- how is it significantly different from "Sense Motive" which I can only assume is rolled with Negotiation, given that it's a specialization of that skill...


Actually, that's an inconsistency in the rules. There are two skills that are supposed to make you better at detecting lies (Con and Negotiation), so you shouldn't be able to do it just as well without them. But as written, the "Judge Intentions" attribute test lets you "gauge another characterís [...] honesty" by rolling Charisma + Intuition.

In my games, I think I'm going to disregard the the whole "Judge Intentions" test, and instead use Negotiation/Con or Etiquette according to the situation.

- Magnus
Superbum
To the OP, I am not gonna try and find a way to work the Dodge skill out of the game like others in thread seem to want but the way dodging works in combat is simple:

vs Ranged: Reaction

vs Ranged as a Full Defense Complex Action: Reaction + Dodge

vs Melee: Reaction + Dodge or Reaction + Melee Skill

vs Melee as a Full Defense Complex Action:
Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
Reaction + Melee Skill + Dodge
Reaction + (Melee SKill x2)
Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics

If someone wants to dispute what I have said, read pg.151:
QUOTE
Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against ranged or melee attacks.


Nowhere does it say that Gymnastics is rolled instead of Dodge.
FrankTrollman
Superbum, that's so wrong that I feel dumber after having read it. While you did successfully quote the rules of a gymnastic dodge, you forgot this part:

QUOTE (SR4)
Full defense can either be taken as a full dodge, full parry, or gymnastic dodge.


So yes, it jolly well says that gymnastics is added instead of dodge. The rule that allows you to add gymnastics as an action is exclusive to adding your dodge. It's just that simple.

So the actual table looks like this:

vs Ranged:
Reaction

vs Ranged as a Full Defense Complex Action:
Reaction + Dodge
or
Reaction + Gymnastics.

vs Melee: Reaction + Dodge
or Reaction + Melee Skill

vs Melee as a Full Defense Complex Action:
Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
or
Reaction + Melee Skill + Dodge
or
Reaction + (Melee SKill x2)
or
Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics
or
Reaction + Melee Skill + Gymnastics
Superbum
QUOTE
QUOTE (SR4)
Full defense can either be taken as a full dodge, full parry, or gymnastic dodge.


So yes, it jolly well says that gymnastics is added instead of dodge. The rule that allows you to add gymnastics as an action is exclusive to adding your dodge. It's just that simple.


No, point to me where it says "in place of" in the book.

While it does say you can use Gymnastics Dodge against ranged attacks, I will concede the fact to you that I forgot to mention the highlight parts below:
QUOTE
vs Ranged as a Full Defense Complex Action:
Reaction + Dodge
or
Reaction + Gymnastics


However, you are wrong about:
QUOTE
Reaction + Melee Skill + Gymnastics


The description of Gymnastics Dodge says nothing of using melee skills. It is purely so the person can roll Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics vs Melee Attacks.

So besides my leaving out 1 thing, my post was pretty solid and sound. Thank you and goodnight.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Superbum)
The description of Gymnastics Dodge says nothing of using melee skills. It is purely so the person can roll Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics vs Melee Attacks.

The description of gymnastic dodge doesn't need to mention your melee skill. What it says is:

QUOTE
Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.


And your dice pool is:

QUOTE
Defenders have three choices for defending against unarmed attacks. If they have a melee weapon in hand, they can parry the attack by rolling Reaction + the appropriate weapon skill. If they have Unarmed Combat skill, they can choose to block by rolling Reaction + Unarmed Combat. Or they can simply dodge out of the way using Reaction + Dodge.


So rolling Reaction + Melee Skill is already defined as potentially being your dice pool on page 147. So when you add your gymnastics skill to that dice pool, what do you think happens?

-Frank
Superbum
Please, it is cleary designed to be an addition to Dodge not a replacement. The wording is terrible and leads to people thinking the way you are.

If you take a Full Defense option you only have 3 choices with regards to Melee:
Full Dodge:
Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
or
Reaction + Melee Skill + Dodge

Full Parry:
Reaction + (Melee Skill x2)

and finally Gymnastics Dodge:
Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics

If they wanted something like what you are talking about they would have mentioned something like this:
"Gymnastics Parry:"
"Reaction + Melee Skill + Gymnastics"
Gothic Rose
While admittedly, it sounds kind of wonky, I agree with Frank that you can use your Rea+Melee+Gymnastics...

Besides, that leads to scenes where you're doing awesome backflips while parrying blows left and right.

SR4 needs to be more like Exalted.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Gothic Rose)
SR4 needs to be more like Exalted.

I thought it already was.
PlatonicPimp
Well, USUALLY the PCs in SR aren't reincarnated gods. There are exceptions.
Feshy
QUOTE (Superbum)
Please, it is cleary designed to be an addition to Dodge not a replacement. The wording is terrible and leads to people thinking the way you are.

If you take a Full Defense option you only have 3 choices with regards to Melee:
Full Dodge:
Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
or
Reaction + Melee Skill + Dodge

Full Parry:
Reaction + (Melee Skill x2)

and finally Gymnastics Dodge:
Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics

If they wanted something like what you are talking about they would have mentioned something like this:
"Gymnastics Parry:"
"Reaction + Melee Skill + Gymnastics"

I think this is correct, actually... looking at the RAW. Though, the wording really could use some clarification. Of course, I've said that about this book a good two dozen times already, so... par for the course I guess.

Though, in my games, I'd have to agree with:

QUOTE
Besides, that leads to scenes where you're doing awesome backflips while parrying blows left and right.


But I am pretty sure this would be a house rule, not RAW.

QUOTE
Well, USUALLY the PCs in SR aren't reincarnated gods. There are exceptions.


I was going to disagree, but you did say player characters, not players. I guess we can't all be like me. smile.gif
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (Feshy)

I was going to disagree, but you did say player characters, not players. I guess we can't all be like me. smile.gif

Bah, What kind of wussy god dies in the first place.

Oh, wait. One who didn't invest points in dodge.
Michael K
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Well, USUALLY the PCs in SR aren't reincarnated gods. There are exceptions.

I don't feel like an exception, but there you are.

And on second thought I really like the idea of backflip-parrying with my char. Let's see what my GM says to it.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
QUOTE (Feshy @ Oct 26 2005, 09:33 PM)

I was going to disagree, but you did say player characters, not players.  I guess we can't all be like me. smile.gif

Bah, What kind of wussy god dies in the first place.

Oh, wait. One who didn't invest points in dodge.

What is the dice pool modifier to dodge a spear while nailed to a giant wooden cross by one's wrists and feet?
blakkie
Whatever it is apparently it's really, really big. frown.gif
Hasaku
Longinus used his magical radio brain to shut down Christ's Wired II, so he wasn't allowed a dodge roll. Stupid GM probably fudged the roll, too.
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